 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Rossablanche is a cool day out 
The route to Pralong is a belter (i,e day 3 of the haute route) - though you need to march on at a good pace to make the bus connectionif your going back to Verbier. Also remember looking down same couloir off the top and thinking it would be a good one. Its marked on the 283s map - looks like you can also ski out to the dixence dam at Pralong.
Hope you don't mind one little word of warning... (from an equally clue-less fellow interweb skier).
Someone traveling with snow shoes, on an early season glacier, might be better roped up ?
Existing skin track looks 110% legit in your photos - but snow shoe-ers weight more (kg / m2) than a skier, and also dont bridge any hidden crevases well. For sure, Grand Desert is not very crevassed - but maybe better safe than sorry, especially with the inlaws!
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 31-12-10 9:55; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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nice boards they rent out -  Looks like a brand new Rossi experience
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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norris, apparently a Jeremy Jones model? Al turned down the big dog - a 177 monster powder board!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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yes his last pro model at Rossignol before he started his own company.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Haggis_Trap, good point. There were actually some gaping great crevasses evident on the Grand Desert despite the excellent snow depths above 2500m. Are you coming to Verbier this season?
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Hope so - I was there for 3 days in mid December.
Though most of my skiing is going to be in Scotland this winter - so keep posting photos 
Off to Grimentz with the girlfriend for a week soon though - which I am pretty excited about (new place for me).
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| BobinCH wrote: |
| ... we did the standard Grand Desert descent. |
Not had the chance yet to explore this area yet, would the standard Grand Desert descent be down over the Col de Momin & Col de la Chaux ?
( route 475a on map 283S )
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snow_muncher,
We went up via Col de la Chaux and Col de Momin but descended by the Grand desert. It's the wide open flat section left hand bottom of the last picture above. You stick to the right hand side and meet up with the tracks from Mt Fort backside just above the Lac de Cleuson. It is an easy tour so gets done quickly after a dump. The route is pretty obvious but there are a few crevasses there so stick to the tracks.
There is a quicker route up avoiding Col de La Chaux if you descend the south side of Mt Fort. I wasn't sure of the snow cover in the tight section and the Mt Fort queues were massive on the day we did it but it looked fine from below and there were a few tracks. You can see the route in this pic.
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| BobinCH wrote: |
... stick to the right hand side and meet up with the tracks from Mt Fort backside just above the Lac de Cleuson....
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Refuge de St. Laurent and then down to Siviex to hop back on the lift system ?
| BobinCH wrote: |
There is a quicker route up avoiding Col de La Chaux if you descend the south side of Mt Fort ...
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yes, I see, the avalanche chute 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Some tasty tracks round the back - looked like they were leading down to the dam. Does anyone know that route?
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Never skied it myself but I've seen variants of the haute route that go down the Mourti Glacier then back up to the col de mouri to rejoin the normal route.
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Hope you don't mind one little word of warning... (from an equally clue-less fellow interweb skier).
Someone traveling with snow shoes, on an early season glacier, might be better roped up ?
Existing skin track looks 110% legit in your photos - but snow shoe-ers weight more (kg / m2) than a skier, and also dont bridge any hidden crevases well. For sure, Grand Desert is not very crevassed - but maybe better safe than sorry, especially with the inlaws!
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Not sure it is a good idea to rope up in this case. A single person on skis or snowshoes without an ice axe will have difficulty in arresting a crevasse fall. I don't think I'd want the be roped to the snow shoer as a pair for that reason. I'd rather take my own chances than have the snow shoer drag me down with them  ! The same can be said for a pair of skiers but at least your less likely to fall in the first place. I guess it comes down to experimenting yourself under safe conditions and making your mind up as to whether you could hold the fall. I'd like to try out those whippets to see if they make it any easier.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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scottishskier, just bought some Grivel Condors although haven't tried self arrest with them yet. Al has them in the first photo.
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Fabulous.
Did you use flash on the portrait shots? If so, very effective.
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You know it makes sense.
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scottishskier, just bought some Grivel Condors although haven't tried self arrest with them yet. Al has them in the first photo.
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Would be interested to hear how you get on. My only worry would be that they wouldn't be strong enough when it came down to it. Still better than just normal poles though.
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brian
brian
Guest
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Haggis_Trap, a few  s will be around the Anniviers, skiing 20-23 January if it happens to coincide? Staying in Zinal though. Think you'll love it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
A single person on skis or snowshoes without an ice axe will have difficulty in arresting a crevasse fall. I don't think I'd want the be roped to the snow shoer as a pair for that reason.
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I think if the skier is downhill when ascending they should be able to stop a fall, at least when there is snow on the glacier, you should have a couple of knots in the rope too which can jam in the crevasse lip as the rope cuts through.
BobinCH, how was the descent on a board? I found that way very flat when we did it. An alternative is to head down towards the Plaufleri hut but keep skiers left and then do a short (steep) climb to the col de Prafleri and then down to the barrage. Haggis_Trap's route down to Pralong is good too but the couple of times we went we would have been hard pushed to have made it back to Verbier, the second time we just made the last bus to get back to Les Masses in which case a nippy ski gets you back to Siviez just before the each lift shuts, don't know why it took so much longer on that attempt than the previous one when we had time for a beer and earlier bus. You'd need the bus before the last one to get to Verbier. Also this was when the lifts shut later, before they put it back we'd have been faced with a skin up the TSA t-bar and the one after.
Can't work out where the other tracks go but there is definitely a way off the back that would pick up that route we did to Fionnay. I think it's marked on a map but I'm not sure.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I think if the skier is downhill when ascending they should be able to stop a fall, at least when there is snow on the glacier, you should have a couple of knots in the rope too which can jam in the crevasse lip as the rope cuts through.
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Imagine trying to edge with skis and boots in touring mode on a really steep slope with the best part of 80kg hanging from you with a bit of a jolt. You'll be pulled from the waist or chest (depending on how you've roped up) so it can be difficult to get your skis in a position to help. That gives you an idea of the difficulties involved. Yes knots will help but the odds of stopping them are not good. Its far from a certainty. Also how is the snowshoer going to stop the skier if he falls in a crevasse? More unlikely but not unheard of. 2 people in a crevasse again. As said before I think it comes down to experimenting yourself under safe conditions and making your mind up as to whether you could hold the fall. Personally I'm not convinced that the odds are any better than 50-50 for the skier stopping snowshoer and even less than that for the snowshoer stopping the skier and so there is no point in roping up in the first place.
If you come up North next winter we'll have to have a experiment and I think you'll see what I mean.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| Not sure it is a good idea to rope up in this case. A single person on skis or snowshoes without an ice axe will have difficulty in arresting a crevasse fall. I don't think I'd want the be roped to the snow shoer as a pair for that reason. I'd rather take my own chances than have the snow shoer drag me down with them |
With a long enough rope, 10m+ apart, you would easily hold the fall. Most of the initial friction comes from the rope cutting into the crevasse lip. Especially on a snow covered glacier (on a summer icy glacier you can see the holes). Though maybe the snow-shoe-er should have an ice axe? The biggest problem for a 2 person rope team would then be anchoring the rope and then extracting the other person.
As a rule of thumb a skier weights 9 times less than a person on foot. So is much less likely to fall into any crevases.
You certainly wouldn't cross a alpine glacier in winter un-roped on foot - and I am almost certain the same applies to snow shoes...
Though would be interested as to how a UIAGM would manage that risk. On the descent the snow-board would be much safer.
Edit : Piste Hors has some interesting reading on glacier travel technique (including funnily enough one pic of a dude on snow-shoes)
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Technique/Roping-Up
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 13-01-11 22:02; edited 4 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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For routes off the Rossablanche, there used to be a really good topo aound from one of the heli ski companies. Can't seem to find it now but did come across this here which shows some of the routes available.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Doug, have you ever tried holding a fall like that? I have yet to hear from someone who has actually tried it for real that shares the same confidence. I think its a little fullhardy to use the word easy in the same sentence as holding a crevasse fall in a pair in those circumstances. Would you trust a snowshoer with no axe to arrest your fall?
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You certainly wouldn't cross a alpine glacier in winter un-roped on foot - and I am almost certain the same applies to snow shoes...
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I'm not disagreeing but if you were walking you would at least have an ice axe out.
My original point was that my chances were better as the skier in this situation unroped.
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For sure - best option is not to fall in... And glacial travel on skis is much safer than on foot (the classic mer de glace crevasse fall is snow-boarders taking their board off on the flat sections).
As ever the "correct" answer depends on circumstances such as the glacier, weather, time of year, mode of transport.
But its generally accepted that parties on foot rope up together for glacial terrain.
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| Would you trust a snowshoer with no axe to arrest your fall? |
I would certainly put the snow shoe person first on the rope.
As they would be most likely to fall in. And as you point out - least able to hold a fall.
However glacial travel in groups of 2 is always tricky (if worst happens you can probably hold the fall but anchoring the rope is almost impossible).
Interested in any other opinions - as this scenario has got me thinking...
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If you come up North next winter we'll have to have a experiment and I think you'll see what I mean.
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For sure, it'll be an interesting experiment. In winter alpine conditions I'm not sure how much use an ice axe would be in stopping you: great in neve but in a couple of feet of nice skiing snow? a pole might actually be a better tool for the job here.
As an aside I'm not that up for falling in any more holes this winter, a non-amusing incident with a plunge pool while abseiling is still very fresh in my mind. I'll make an exception in the name of science though if the opportunity arises.
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My original point was that my chances were better as the skier in this situation unroped.
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Almost certainly, tbh the main reason for the splitboard was to avoid this sort of situation. I guess the question is is it safer for the group to be unroped or roped which can only be answered through testing. Thinking of roped scrambling a little bit of friction and a tight rope makes it fairly easy to hold a fall, I guess it depends on how big the fall is though and if you get any warning in which to brace yourself. I assumed it would be fairly easy but hearing your doubts is making me reconsider.
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Ideal scenario on a glacier is a rope of 3 (or more) well spaced by 10m, with spare coils at either end.
2 people roped up on glacier is always non-optimal, what ever the mode of transport.
Basically holding the fall, and making an anchor becomes way harder, as pointed out.
EDIT - and I probably wouldn't trust anyone on snow shoes to bring their own packed lunch, let alone hold a big crevasse fall
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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EDIT - and I probably wouldn't trust anyone on snow shoes to bring their own packed lunch, let alone hold a big crevasse fall Wink
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Haha! 
At the end of the day its a rare situation to be in if ever so probably not worth worrying about.
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