 Poster: A snowHead
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Terrific article on Piste Hors about avalanche airbags. Very thought provoking, especially in light of the news from Val d'Isere in the last couple of days.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Interesting. Basically you need to still try and avoid avalanches - but people who get caught with an airbag and deploy it do hugely better than people who don't have one. And the one who died in VdI was the one who didn't deploy theirs. Compare with the evidence for the avalung which is very very unimpressive. But the key question should always be - " would you ski this slope without a shovel/probe/helmet/beacon/airbag" and if the answer is no - you should not ski it with them either.
I'm getting a snowpulse the weekend after next. Birthday present from someone.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| I'm getting a snowpulse the weekend after next. |
Which model? I'm also thinking about buying one. Have you looked in to the flight implications?
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The stats from SLF (swiss avalanche institute) about ABS packs are very impressive.
Of 262 cases where ABS were used (97.3%) the victims survived
However.... It should be noted that success rate is a little distorted.
Not everyone who triggers their pack would have been buried.
I think 1/3rd of alpine avalanche victims are actually buried ? Though that figure depends on source of your stats.
Anything that keeps you on the surface has to be a good idea.
However there have been 4 fatalities already this season where the victims were equipped with air-bags.
Made we wonder for sure just how valid the SLF / ABS statistics are.
Was speaking with a very well respected Chamonix guide last week.
Interestingly he was of the opinion that ABS is definitely the best system available.
His main reasons being...
1) ABS has explosives to trigger the air bags. They used to use compressed air and cable trigger (like snowpulse) but switched over about 10/15 years ago after some packs failed in the field due to frozen pipes. The explosives are why you cant take ABS on aircraft.
2) ABS have sold more air-bag systems than all manufacturers put together
3) ABS is also the lightest pack available (the new ABS day-pack is impressively light)
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 28-12-10 20:55; edited 4 times in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, the 30L one.
flight issues seem to be largely sorted. And the snowpulse at least is compressed air with no explosive charge.
Haggis Trap if I didn't need to fly, I might be tempted - but I also like the look of the head and neck protection you may get from the snowpulse (time will tell) - especially as my life was saved by my head hitting a car airbag earlier this year.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| 1) ABS has explosives to trigger the air bags. They used to use compressed air and cable trigger (like snowpulse) but switched over about 10/15 years ago after some packs failed in the field due to frozen pipes. The explosives are why you cant take ABS on aircraft. |
The flight issue is still a big deal I think.
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| Quote: |
The flight issue is still a big deal I think.
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Sorted now, many threads on SH about this.
ABS Freeride 15l pack is the one to get IMO for day skiing av pack, and I did last year, swapped for my 30l which I found too bulky.................never be without it, its highly recommended.
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
| Quote: |
The flight issue is still a big deal I think.
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Sorted now, many threads on SH about this. |
All airlines happy to carry them?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar,
Wear the sack as normal as hand luggage, trigger and canister inside ski boots on plane in hold and advise carrier in advance all OK. See ABS website for detailed info and downloads. Swiss, Lufthansa are OK with it, and most budget companies playing catch-up, becoming the norm now. Also canisters can be hired in resort easily, in most major resorts worst case. Not sure about US carriers
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Markymark29, thanks. Would love to hear more first hand experience of flying with ABS, positive and negative.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, thanks Rob it is a good article, also makes me think, esp about the St Foy link in the article, we were there 2004/2005 it was the first time we had seen major use of avalanche airbags
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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What causes Airbags to deploy?
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| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
| What causes Airbags to deploy? |
There is a trigger mechanism which the person wearing the bag must deploy (although there is now one remotely-detonated version).
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
| What causes Airbags to deploy? |
There is a trigger mechanism which the person wearing the bag must deploy (although there is now one remotely-detonated version). |
Ahh, so if you see a wall of snow blasting down the hill towards you, you hit the button and brace yourself? And the plan is that it stops you from being buried and subsequently reduces the chance of suffocation?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
| Ahh, so if you see a wall of snow blasting down the hill towards you, you hit the button and brace yourself? And the plan is that it stops you from being buried and subsequently reduces the chance of suffocation? |
Yes.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I too am seriously questioning wether I should get an air bag or not, so interested in what fellow snowheads are thinking.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Leeds_Skier wrote:
Ahh, so if you see a wall of snow blasting down the hill towards you, you hit the button and brace yourself? And the plan is that it stops you from being buried and subsequently reduces the chance of suffocation?
Yes.
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Yes and a couple of other things.
At the first sign of the avalanche, the airbag should be deployed even if you are not actually in the avalanche, you can then still try and ski out of the side or avoid the avalanche.
Its seems a little difficult to say after recent events, however the stats show that deploying the airbag as early as possible is the best thing to do.
Airbags take about 1 to 2 secs to fully inflate so its advised to act as quick as possible and not wait thinking you dont need to delpoy it yet as you are not actually in the avalanche.
If you are in a group then all members of that group should double check that the airbag activation handles are open and ready for use, a little like testing transceivers before starting the day, or like the buddy system with diving.
Leeds_Skier, the chances are that even with an airbag you will still be buried but to a lesser degree and usually on the surface, it is then much easier for the rescue team to see you or if you are OK then self extract.
There are no hard and fast rules as avalanches are all very different so its really difficult to advise on what will happen.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Leeds_Skier wrote: |
Ahh, so if you see a wall of snow blasting down the hill towards you, you hit the button and brace yourself? And the plan is that it stops you from being buried and subsequently reduces the chance of suffocation? |
If you see a wall of snow blasting down the hill towards you.... then say your prayers and kiss you &rse goodbye because airbag or no airbag the 'collision force' (non-technical term) will cause massive internal injuries which will most likely kill you (like driving a car into a brick wall - heart being ripped from aorta etc).
However, the vast majority of avalanches are triggered by the skier involved, hence no "wall of snow" (or at least 'behind' the wall of snow), hence airbag will tend to keep you towards the top of the flowing snow
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Rob@rar - Its all a bit patchy in the past but getting better with scheduled airlines (bag on plane and canister/ trigger separate in hold bag). Advise 2 weeks prior, as the ABS website says, also at check-in. With EJ non-commital when I called them once (not easy) so took sack on plane as hand luggage and left cansiter/ trigger at home. Jet 2, think your mad/ dont understand (2 years ago, now maybe ok?) Never carried on Ryanair (I'm allergic to them) but O'Leary would probably charge £100 if he could I guess. Suggest that you also take downloads from ABS airbag official website
Going in mid January Lufthansa to Munich, and intend to call them in next 2-3 days to book skis on, and will mention ABS on same call, so will advise and post what they say.................its a moving picture I think, and getting better but genearally OK. Worst case scenerio just take bag and hire cartridge/ trigger in resort. There's always a way, I suggest.
I got mine from www.snowsafe.co.uk, great company to deal with. Just noticed mine is a 15L with external shovel pouch, think it may have been supersceded (not on their webpage), but other new models which look great. 
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Davidof suggests that if a skier is caught in an avalanche in which they would otherwise be buried, they have a 9 out of 10 chance of surviving if they deploy an airbag. If they simply have an avalanche transceiver, they have a 1 in 2 chance or fifty fifty chance of being rescued alive.
Those statistics are pretty impressive.
Why is it then that skiers are advised to always use a transceiver, probe and shovel when going off piste but an airbag is often regarded as an expensive extra piece of safety equipment rather than essential?
Playing devil's advocate, shouldn't the advice be get the airbag first and the other equipment later?
An airbag costs roughly twice as much as a transceiver, probe and shovel and there are also the problems associated with flying, but are these issues not outweighed when simply glancing at the bare statistics?
Obviously without knowledge, experience a little wisdom and often the assistance of a guide, all the above safety devices are pretty useless.
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Deleted double post
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 29-12-10 23:16; edited 1 time in total
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imorris, When I first started skiing off piste about thirty years ago, from my memory very few skiers carried transceivers, shovels or probes. It later became more commonplace for transceivers to be used but still many people went without shovels and probes, although that has also changed in recent years.
Airbags are a fairly recent innovation comparatively and I suspect like many things with regard to safety, will become more commonplace in the future. Until very recently I think there was still a lot of scepticism of their effectiveness, not to mention the weight and cost of them.
For those that remember, think of the cars we used to drive thirty years ago. No seatbelts, no ABS, no airbags, all of which have become more or less standard now.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Imorris, I think you've possibly answered own question in terms of why not purchase airbag first against having knowledge and a little wisdom.
Imagine similarly to most I progressed to off-piste, playing off the sides of pistes etc and picked up transceiver et al along the way as became (a little bit) wiser. My priority was always which Skis, boots and clothes would let me have most fun. And, as others probably did I always considered airbag too expensive and pain for travelling.
However, couple of seasons ago I was off doing some cat skiing and first experienced one of those moments where had stopped for a breather as the feel of the snow had got heavier and heavier during the day as the temperature had risen. Quick look around the group (including the guide) and could see the morning's whoops had gone and we were all getting twitchy about the conditions. At that point consciously decided to look into getting airbag before next went skiing. Therefore picked up Snowpulse for me and wife earlier this year, did baulk slightly at price, but then again figured - have 2 young kids, so................
Rob@Rar,
12 - 19 Dec, myself and OH flew Manchester to Geneva (Monarch) for week in VDI and returned via Chambery to Manchester (Jet2). Snowpulse canisters were in hold luggage. Outsize luggage scanner at Manchester picked them up straight away. Young lad manning it flapped slightly said couldn't go through, I said could and produced IATA guidelines as very kindly mentioned by other Snowheads on forum. Quick phone call by him to supervisor and was sorted and put through.
Return via Chambery, same scenario, this time got called on tannoy before had even finished checking in rest of family's bags. Got "invited" in to small side room with scanner, told to sign statement that bag was mine, not tampered with, etc then made to open. Young lady on scanner tells me can't carry canisters, I reply that can and produce IATA guidelines, she calls boss, round we go again, he calls his boss, round we go again, airport security supervisor turns up,glances at canisters, apologises, explains that other staff are new and says put bags through - no problem. Bit of a muck around for 5 mins. This never involved the airline staff, only the airport security staff.
Others have posted some great threads on here reference transporting them - one of the debates one lad had with Easyjet is awesome. I now refer to it as an inflatable lifejacket and carry a copy of the IATA guidelines on me. Of note, at Chambery they were really concerned that the Snowpulse had an explosive trigger, so whether they'd be fussier with an ABS..............
SD
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| imorris wrote: |
Why is it then that skiers are advised to always use a transceiver, probe and shovel when going off piste but an airbag is often regarded as an expensive extra piece of safety equipment rather than essential? |
As richjp states above the Airbag concept is relatively speaking a new phenomenon - it will take a few years yet for it to become de rigeur most likely. Your point is valid though, I can remember discussing this last year with an avalanche researcher who said something along the lines of - "I've been studying snow for 30 years, but you can hand someone with no knowledge an airbag and they will have a better chance (statistically) of survival than I will with transc/shovel/probe."
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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This has got to be the winning argument for ABS / Snowpulse, especially for guides. As Haggis Trap points out there have been a few fatalities involving people wearing air bag systems and not deploying them, with a second party able to "pull the trigger" if needed it makes the ABS a no brainer. I'm not sure it's actually available yet.
I am a long term ABS user and have never had trouble flying with it (as documented on  ), mainly within Canada and UK > Canada. As with SD2010's experience, being patient, polite and firm with the correct IATA information, you can't go wrong.
Regardless of your gear be safe out there!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Now read the article, excellent read.
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sd2010, Interesting post, its good to get your experiences also here
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Outsize luggage scanner
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So do you put your canisters in with your skis or in your hold bag? I must admit I've been thinking about putting mine in with skis recently - at least then you are with the bag when it gets scanned. My concern is always, what happens if they rip my bag open when I'm not there etc, loads of expensive kit, eg ski boots in bag and they could get messed about with.......................I'd appreciate your thoughts?
By the way - on a general matter, I agree 100% with the recent posts above re safety, all the kit in the world will never be a substitute for good mountain practice, all it does is be there and assist if (hopefully never) it is needed. Its also there to help others, after all probes/ shovels are there to get to others out, and av tranceovers are also there to locate others as well as be found in the unfortunate event of an incident. If all wore this kit then it'd be a great thing - it costs c £1000 to get fully kitted up, OK expensive but worth it I suggest, and if the costs are looked at as spread over say 10 years its got to be sound sense.
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You know it makes sense.
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I hadn't heard about the results of Pems' fatal accident in Sainte Foy. Interesting. All the Sainte Foy pisteurs now carry ABS, supplied directly by the manufacturer. They're returned, tested and serviced at the end of every season.
I use an ABS myself. I'm not sure I've modified my risk-taking as a result. I'm possibly slightly more likely to ride off-piste solo with my ABS, but I think I'd still be doing it without. The nature of my job/snow-time means that I'll often pop up for a quick couple of hours and if I see something that looks in good nick and don't bump into a suitable partner on the way, I'll most-likely ride it solo (this is in the context of more-or-less "in-bounds" slopes, within sight-and-sound of ski patrol, for more remote riding I very rarely go alone).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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stevomcd,
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I hadn't heard about the results of Pems' fatal accident in Sainte Foy
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Yep I missed that too, until I read the article.
I know the ABS setup in Foy, its quite an intresting one for ABS as a company. It maybe because of the somewhat unique nature of St Foy and the off piste there, that ABS saw it as a good opportunity. Iam not sure if ABS do the same thing elsewhere, maybe someone knows>?
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Poster: A snowHead
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By the way, a tip from the Sainte Foy pisteurs - as I mentioned above, their ABS packs get checked at the end of each season by the manufacturer. This includes test-firing each pack. Apparently, in the very small number of cases in which a pack has failed to inflate, they've established that the pisteur in question installed the trigger handle at the beginning of the season and left it there all winter. This meant that some corrosion occurred which was sufficient to prevent the activation of the pack. It is recommended to remove the trigger handle after each use and to periodically lubricate the trigger installation mechanism (the brass bit). The packs are sold with a small amount of oil for this purpose, but any sensible lubricant should do the trick - I use Finish Line bike lube myself!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| but any sensible lubricant should do the trick - I use Finish Line bike lube ON myself! |
There - I've fixed it for you 
But seriously, very good point about keeping the handle mechanism well maintained.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Scarpa, if you are interested - I have 2 litres of finish line wet lube in my garage. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You spend £650 on a pack and then don't look after it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I've not contributed to this thread, but another issue is that of sweat / corrosion - I use my ABS 30lt for ski touring and I sweat like a pig, so that can affect the zips - like windsurfing quiverbags and the like the zips are really prone to salt corrossion, though to be honest bags do have a life time guarantee for that sort of stuff - but you do have to make sure the trigger handle should always be taken off when not in active use to prevent corrosion.
As for the wireless trigger mechanism, most guides I spoke to about that thought it was one step too far - great idea but in real time so hard to implement - they thought there could be so many potential issues and the like, though was difficlut to get them to explain more fully has to be said!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Scarpa, if you are interested - I have 2 litres of finish line wet lube in my garage. |
Oooo.. is that the extreme riding and wet condition version?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I am seriously thinking of getting an ABS. I seem to be spending more time off piste and reckon that eventually I could make an error and land myself in a slide.
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Interesting to see how people reading this thread are now seriously thinking about buying a "pack".
In fact this thread is similar to the perceived mental pressure that I was under earlier this year when I was the only one out of four of my mates who did not have one - so by the time we hooked up again I had bought one - as I told the Mrs the last thing she would want was that I was the only one killed in a slide because I didn't want to shell out for a pack.
Once you start thinking about buying one there is no getting out of it - luckily this extreme form of mental retail therapy is not more prevalent!
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| Weathercam wrote: |
Interesting to see how people reading this thread are now seriously thinking about buying a "pack".
In fact this thread is similar to the perceived mental pressure that I was under earlier this year when I was the only one out of four of my mates who did not have one - so by the time we hooked up again I had bought one - as I told the Mrs the last thing she would want was that I was the only one killed in a slide because I didn't want to shell out for a pack.
Once you start thinking about buying one there is no getting out of it - luckily this extreme form of mental retail therapy is not more prevalent! |
I don't know. If I THINK I'll be skiing a lot of slopes that are highly likely to slide, I think I'd confine myself to the piste.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Scarpa, yes...
are you chafing darling? 
3.8L costs about £50. 120ml costs £7. I have a US gallon of the stuff and refill my bike riding mates bottles in return for cake!
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| Markymark29 wrote: |
sd2010, Interesting post, its good to get your experiences also here
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Outsize luggage scanner
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Regardless of the size of your luggage this is where you are told to take your canisters by the check-in staff - they are effectively 'passing the buck'. At nearly all airports I have ever traveled through 'oversize' is the only place where they scan your luggage while you are stood there, the staff there are more 'experienced' about restricted / prohibited materials.
I put my trigger / canister in a ski boot (which normally needs to go through oversize anyway). You are present when they scan the piece of luggage, so no worries about security.
My experience has been identical to sd2010, just have your paperwork with you. The initial reaction you will get is "you can't fly with that", becomes "have a nice flight" when you explain that it's on the International 'safe list' of approved "restricted products".
With the number of days I have now clocked up with my ABS it works out at about $0.50 per ski day. I've said it before I got my pack not because I wanted to be able to ski more avalanche prone areas with some 'back up' but because there are times when I would be skiing avalanche terrain with people that might not have been able to actually rescue me if the worse case did happen.
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FAQ
