What is the typical slope degree for black pistes?

A snowHead

Inspired by davidof's last post on the 'thread that dare not speak its name', what is the degree of slope on typical black pistes?

I'm trying to get my head around the ski touring/mountaineering scale that David posted, but having never really thought about the absolute pitch of slopes I can't visualise what he wrote.

A snowHead

rob@rar.org.uk, haven't we had something like this recently? Ah, I remember! It was the one about the steepest pisted run ever.

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At http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/main/general/avalancheFAQ.do
under " How do I judge if a slope is 'dangerous'?" it states
"An 'expert' slope at a ski resort is usually around 35 degrees maximum.".

At Henry's lectures I believe he said the steepest black slopes in Tignes and Val d'Isere are 34 degrees.

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I've always found a narrow piste more tricky than a steep one.

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When a black was over 32º the Good Ski Guide (in earlier editions) seemed to think it worth mentioning. I can't rermember one mentioned over 36º (it was in the USA somewhere).
I wonder how steep the steepest part of the Grande Couloir at Courchevel is.

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There is a piste in Salen, Sweden that the locals call the wall, it's only short and I don't know the pitch but you can't see the slope unless you are on the very edge. Narrow too, I bottled it but a few tried it and ended up skidding down sideways or on their backsides.

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There's a piste in Kitzbuhel (of all places) marked as 35 degrees which (in good snow conditions) posed no problem at all to my family and would not trouble anyone confident on your average red. It's wide, but evn skiing it as if it was narrow (if you see what I mean) caused no difficulty. It was groomed flat as a pancake.

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My guess would have been 30 degrees for your average black (just making sure, black in europe = double black in canada?). 30 degrees being the slope on the steep parts of the run, not the average slope for the whole run, which could have flatter areas mixed in.

Pardon my ignorence but please can someone advise. When talking about 35 deg is it from the vertical or horizontal?

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Mikee, from horizontal.

The angle varies by resort.
Many resorts grade their slopes to suit the kind of clientelle they want to attract, (whether that is beginners, experts or somewhere in between), or to make it seem like they cater for everyone, so you might see it advertise:
20% Green
30% Blue
30% Red
20% Black
for pisted, and then an amount of off-piste.

Now that could be equivalent to AVERAGE angles of:
5º Green
10º Blue
15º Red
20º Black

or,
10º Green
20º Blue
30º Red
40º Black

In March I was skiing in Beaver Creek.
Ripsaw is a black run in the Rose Bowl. The steepest part of it was 34º (as measured by a friend with an inclinometer)
Using the same gear, the steepest part of the Birds of Prey downhill at Beaver was about 37º

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I think Wear The Fox Hat makes an important point. Different resorts seem to use different rules to grade their pistes. This might be so they can have the correct distribution of grades to attract customers.

Grading is about more than just steepness. It must also consider: width of piste; length of steep sections.; exposure or what happens at the sides of the piste; corners on narrow or steep sections. All of these aspectss must be considered for the whole ski season. Piste grading should not change during the season or as the weather changes.

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Adrian, it invariably does and the characteristics of a run change with the conditions.

You know it makes sense.

richmond, why?

I mean, currently North American ski areas don't mark the sides of their pistes like we do in Europe, but they will mark obstacles, and post notices at the top of runs, or the bottom of lifts, advising on adverse terrain conditions.
Here's an example...
http://skiing.wtfh.com/images/ESA3/109_0994.JPG

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

There's also the problem of how it is decided what level a slope is regraded to.
Does weather come into it? I mean, a blue run in a white-out may be way too much for some, yet for others, they find it easier to come down a black run when they can't see too far ahead!
Also, would you re-classify a run if there was a strong wind blowing up it, this slowing skiers down?

A snowHead

Wear The Fox Hat, I wasn't being entirely serious, but in principle you could have a system which reassessed gradings as often as you wished, taking into account weather and snow condition and even the number of people on a piste as well as the permanent topographical features.

Since we are all agreed that weather and snow condition affect the difficulty of a run signficantly, it ought to be helpful, especially to less experienced skiers. Of course, anyone with a few weeks experience will know that runs are more difficult in some conditions, but this doesn't apply uniformly to all runs or even to all runs of a particular grade.

To answer your specific questions, yes and yes.

I am willing to share royalties on this important innovation with anyone who actually designs it.

A snowHead

As gradings generally are very different between resorts even in same country and are frequently inconsistent even within resorts themselves (often find runs down or up rated to suit profiling for tourists to make easy route or beginner zones, classic down graders Val Despair and Les Grand Mottets) really all you can look for in grading is a general indication of the likely pitch ahead. This is only really important from beginner to middle intermediate stages in terms of safety after this most can get themselves down any on piste run even if not in style. So oftetimes grading starts revolving around ego a good example being the chevreuil piste in meribel marked as a black it is actually a pretty easy run except when it's been allowed to mogul for a month or so however frequently they piste half the run (wrecking the moguls) so that tourists can say the went down "the Black". WFTH also makes very good point about changing conditions affecting difficulty and I would also add that some runs react better to changing conditions than others i.e. a blue run may have adverse cambers that make it considerably more difficult in icy conditions than a red or even black in same conditions. It really is just a general guide and on the whole not that important given the safety provisios mentioned above. Back on topic I'm pretty confident N.America will have the steepest recognised trails/pistes (there are many off piste in Europe that are steeper and more exposed I hasten to add) I know Spanky's and Couloir at Whistler have been mentioned as well as the pretty intimidating Corbett's at Jackson, having just been there I'd like to chip in the Pallisades and KT22-the Fingers at Squaw, all the above basically have cliff jumps in them ranging from 10-15ft to c.50ft so piste angle 90 degrees often landing onto c.55 degrees or so, however most of these aren't pisted so I'm not sure they qualify - How steep's the first pitch on the Hannenkahn?

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The Hari Kari (Mayrhofen) is reported to be 78% which is ~ 38 degrees and is advertised as the steepest groomed run in Austria.

Here is a picture,

and if that doesn't work then look here

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JimboS, great picture. I tried to take one but it just didn't do it justice. I did have a great view of someone sliding all the way down on their behind, basically the entire part of the picture. (He was fine by the way!)

I had a great Gluwein at that restaurant!

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snowball, no siree. It was actually marked as 70% (with an 'Achtung!'), which is, we agree, 35 degs. It looked bloody steep, but in good snow, which we had (there was the odd small patch of hard snow/ice, inevitable on a steep piste), and without bumps, it was a piece of cake for us (we're decent enough piste skiers, but nothing special). A competent red skier might well have been fazed by the steepness when standing and looking at it, but could have skiied it comfortably (I think). With a lot of ice and/or bumps it would have been a different story. I skiied an itinerary part of the Hahnenkahm (lower part) which was no steeper but had nasty bumps and was clear blue ice more or less from top to bottom, and found it very hard work indeed. The racers jump most of it, I understand, and I don't blame them.

In view of the discussion above, I have my doubts about whether it was really as steep as advertised (Kitzbuhel may feel it needs to talk up its steepness), but it was steep, as steep as almost anything I've skiied.

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Well, well. it's a while since I've been to Kitzbuhel but I can't remember a run as steep as that. Where is it?

Surely Corbetts can't be a piste: a piste is patrolled and pisted and graded blue, red or black (or green, blue, black, double black diamond in the USA - or did I get that wrong?)

snowball, it's the 'Diretissima' which takes you down to the to the Ehrenbachgraben coming from the general direction of the Fleckalmbahn. Definitely steep. whether 70% or not I don't know. Probably the top 100m (vertical) is that steep I would guess.

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snowball, Mike Lawrie, the one I'm thinking of comes down to the Ehrenbachgraben from the Steinbergkogel gipfel direction (from the left, roughly, on the pite map), if I remember correctly. It has a steep start and a steep pitch at the end, which is the alleged 70% part, I think. You can join it part way down, at the steep bit, by a short path past the bottom of a lift, possibly the Jufenalm chair.

I don't remember a black coming down to the Ehrenbachgraben from the Fleckalmbahn direction.

I don't think I'm getting confused, but you never know.

I'm assuming that the Ehrenbachgraben is the 'hole' with a restaurant and pistes coming in and lifts (3?) going out, but no other way out, SFAIK. What happens if you turn up there after the lifts have shut, I wonder? Walk up the road towards the Hahnenkammbahn, I suppose, or kip in the restaurant.

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snowball, Corbet's is marked as a double black diamond trail. Whether it counts as a "piste" or not is a different question!

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Oh, I didn't realise that. Shows another difference in the attitude to piste / off piste in the US

(when I say "Marked", I mean it is marked on the trail map, not that it has piste markers as you go down it)

You know it makes sense.

There are some other steep chutes in Jackon that are also named runs, can't remember the names of them though????

This book on amazon lists the double diamond runs (Most aren't marked on the piste map), you can click thru the book from this link below to see the list of double diamond runs.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/1575401126/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-3566389-6090512?tag=amz07b-21#reader-page

cheers,

greg

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I confirm richmond account of the groomed steep black in Kitzbuhel. It is indeed a piste with a marked sign at the top. And as richmond suggested it looks steep but does not seem particularly scary as some of the narrow French blacks, possibly because it is fairly wide and so there is plently scope to transverse to take out a good portion of the steep section.

Kitzbuhel's 'Diretissima' stands out because it is one of the few that states the gradient.

Personally I think it is a good idea if the resort owners declare the gradient of each black piste. It would be a good information for those attempting it for the first time, as once embarked there is no going back. There will be seasonal variations, length/width considerations and other factors that can affect the difficulty of tackling a steep piste but knowing it gradient would go a long way to clam a novice down.

A snowHead

I assume the gradient would be of the steepest section, rather than the whole run, but how long would a section need to be to be considered separately?

A snowHead

richmond, same one. I always go down that way when I come out of the Fleckalmbahn. Ok, It may not be the most direct route, but coming out of the Fleck you just ski along the long flat beginners drag down to the three man chair that takes you to the top of the Ehrenbachhoehe (I don't have a map in front of me so can'remember it's name), round the back of the chair past the signposts saying "Diretissima, 70%, Not For Poofs" and straight into the steepest part of the slope. You can also go down it when coming back down from the Ehrenbachhoehe.

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Mike Lawrie, that's it. When you turn left at the bottom of the drag, there's a dip and a little up past a barn or something then round a left hander to to the bottom of the chair (Jufenalm, I think); that goes up to Steinbergkogel gipfel, not Ehrenbachhoehe (look at http://www.bergbahn-kitzbuehel.at/de/default.asp if you can be bothered). Glad we've sorted it out.

It's interesting to know the gradient of a run (at least, I think it is), but I'm not sure how much help it is. The Diretissima is a good example of how a wide, flat, steep run can be straightforward in good conditions. I've skiied a lot of gentler slopes which have been much trickier.

Can someone remind me how to post links, please?

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richmond, right. Steinbergkogel, Ehrenbachhoehe. All sounds the same to me! I particularly like the ancient one man chair that takes you from the Ehrenbachgraben up to the Steinbergkogel. It's nearly always empty because it's hidden from view by a bunch of trees and almost everyone takes the two man chair from Ehrenbachgraben back up to the Steinbergkogel (gipfel). Gives you direct access to Powder Heaven. But I guess that's getting off the subject of steep pistes.

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Well, there is nothing wrong with the link in your post, Richmond!
The address of a thread is the one you get at the top of your page when you are on it (just do [url= etc as usual). I think the address of a post might be the one you get if you click on the little page with turned-down corner to the right of the post in question (but I'm not sure).

PS Edit: I was right, I just did a test.

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This year's Piste map for Espace Killy shows a new category for un-groomed though still marked and patrolled pistes. Most of these were marked as black pistes last year and some were not particularly difficult blacks. They have been called "Naturide" pistes.

As far as I'm aware, there are 3 key factors which go together to determine the difficulty ranking of a piste. Its steepness, its narrowness and how far the fall-line varies from the direction of the piste itself.

Obviously, the first two tend to be well considered but the third criterion is often overlooked.
As I was looking from reds to blacks for my challenges, I encountered the occasional run which seemed neither particularly steep nor narrow yet it was marked black and i quite definitely found it difficult. I slowly realised that it was due to its twisting and turning somewhat, with the fall-line often going in quite a different direction from the general direction of the piste - just something else to learn to take into account.
It seems to me that the fall-line far more consistently runs straight down the line of Reds and Blues.

With regard to pistes becoming more or less difficult with snow conditions: I don't think it's really possible to give much more than just a general indication of a piste's over all difficulty. Remember, they don't just vary day to day but hour to hour and sometimes even minute to minute. Often in Spring, an un-groomed run of large moguls can be like skiing over a demolition site of bricks and rubble in the morning yet be like giant squishy cushions in the afternoon.
I recall one Spring morning where, as the sun crept higher into the sky drawing the shadows of the trees back across the piste, anything that had been in the light for over 5 minutes had melted, everything else was rock solid. Accordingly I was repeatedly moving from ice to slush or back again, sometimes in the space of a single bump. Naturally, this slope was becoming substantially easier overall, as it softened up in the space of an hour or two.

So, to topic: I think we've figured that the steepest that a black piste tends to get is in the region of 35 degrees but the typical steepness has surely got to be very much less indeed.

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Mike Lawrie, I was in Kitz last Feb in the middle of some excellent snow; I've never been there in reallygood snow before. I was very impressed by the amount of accessible off piste and by the fact that it stayed untracked for days; I suppose that it's not a powder hound's resort. I didn't venture very far off piste (I must have some off piste lessons), but it looked good for those who did. Apparently Bichalm was amazing.

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I am often surprised about how different people react to steep slopes. In Meribel in 1992 just after the Olympics and the downhill piste was opened to us rifraf. Just below the tree-line there is (was?) a short steep section carved through the trees. Fairly narrow compared to most of the rest of the piste. Both sides were packed with novices who had to ski the Ladies Downhill Course but who could not ski blacks happily. It has always seemed to me to be a steep section of piste, but great to compare styles: the racers straightlined it, probably jumping so their skis did not even touch this part of the slope. The rifraf could barely slideslip down it.

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davidof, do you happen to know how steep the Epaule de Charvet is in Espace Killy?

Help!!

What is the typical slope degree for black pistes?

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