Is it feasible or is it dangerous to mix winter tyres and standard tyres on a car ? For example, could you have winter tyres on the front and standard tyres on the rear ( or vice versa) If this is feasible what would be the best for a front wheel drive car?
The reason I ask is that 2 new tyres will be needed for the upcoming MOT and we have a couple of drives to our ski place this winter. So rather than buy 2 new standard tyres and then 4 winter tyres I am trying to economise
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
not answers but i am just thinking the same thing, please keep us informed with what you come up with.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
loatie, I'm sure you could but, your Winter Tyres will seriously wear out come the spring again. While I appreciate that 4 tyres is a big outlay you only use them 6-months of the year, then switch back to normal tyres. So they last twice as long.
I bought a set of Winter Tyres last year and will swap over to them soon.
Even just in the UK they are worth their weight in gold - in icy conditions I had no probs and my neighbours were hitting trees and lamposts
You can have 2 winter tyres as long as they are both on the same axle (ie. both on front or both on rear)
It makes sense to fit them to the driven wheels for better traction....
However
It is safer to have better tyres on the rear wheels (even with front wheel drive cars, and not just in winter) than on the front.
Testing has shown that having less grip on the rear can cause vehhicles to spin (over steer)
Less grip on the fronts and the vehicle will under steer. This is easier to control in the real world hence most cause having a degree of understeer when pushed to the limit.
What I would do is have 4 winter tyres and leave them on all year round.
At temps below 7 degrees and in the wet, the winter tyres will offer substantially more grip.
In the British summer they are virtually as good as summer tyres, and the winter & wet weather advantage outways anything else.
Most vehicles have "all season tyres" which are a comprimise between the 2 anyway so not 100% perfect for any season!
On my vehicle, I've got a full set of winters on all year round, and have done so for many years now!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
In the British summer they are virtually as good as summer tyres, and the winter & wet weather advantage outways anything else.
Do they In my experience most UK cars have summer tyres not All Season, All Season tyres will generally have mountain and/or snowflake symbol on.
A good place for advice and buying is mytyres.co.uk
loatie, good question. when we first came out here we went into a big tyre place in sallanches to get some snow tyres and being complete beginners just asked the guy what he would recommend. We would have been ready to pay for 4, but he assured us that 2 on the drive wheels would be OK. He also told us they had max speed rating of 50 mph.
Hmm. So much for local knowledge. We now know better and use 4 winter tyres with speed rating far higher than I am ever likely to drive - I think they're 130 mph. You live and learn. I lost the rear end, did 180 degree skid and came to rest looking straight back down the road. It was scary - and I was going super-slow round a left hand bend when it happened. I remembered what I'd learned about skids, nothing was coming, and it all ended without drama (I drove straight back down to a safe spot and put the snow chains on). The advice from the experts here seems to be that you really need 4 snow tyres and my own experience bears that out.
A recent thread here also suggested that if 2 of the snow tyres are newer than the others, the new ones should go on the non drive wheels (ie the rear, for most of us).
We get the tyres changed twice a year and have tracking etc checked at the same time (bad conditions and mucky roads here tend to throw out the tracking, it seems). With 4 good snow tyres we very rarely need the chains now (never go out without them though...)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
loatie, I've used winter tyres for the last few years. I'm not aware of any UK legislation that precludes mixing them. Having searched the net, as I'm sure you have, I cannot find a recommendation for doing it but plenty of links that say do not!
I had heard the 'loosing' the rear end' tales, even with putting new tyres on the front but leaving worn tyres on the rear, let alone mixing winter and summer tyres.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 10-10-10 20:40; edited 1 time in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
I just carry chains in the car from Nov. onwards.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
My understanding is that it is dangerous to mix winter and summer tyres. That is understable enough, for the whole point of the winter tyres is that they provide better braking when temperatures are below 7°C. And having different braking on the two axes sounds like a sure way of getting into a skid!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
This is all very confusing! I have chains as well and would obviously put them on the front (drive) wheels when needed so would have expected to put my 2 new snow tyres on the front as well. If I pursue this course of action and buy 2 snow tyres for now, should I therefore put them on the rear and put up with occasionally having to use the chains on the front?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
charlichoo, an interesting take on it, I would posit that you want the best tyres on the driving tyres as otherwise you might not get anywhere (and on a FWD car they'll be the primary braking tyres too) - and if you're at the limit where your lateral speed is going to overwhelm your tyres grip, your driving too fast.
Not being silly, I know that if I can't start and stop, I can't go round corners terribly quickly either.
Anyway, all garages we go to put the best tyres on the front wheels (plus we rotate year to year) even though we have switchable/auto 4wd.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
weeSKI, for most people who drive to France, carrying chains is fine and you will probably be fine on normal UK summer tyres. I did it like this for 10 years!
loatie, I can only repeat what I've said above, yes it will cost to start with, but they will last twice as long.
You WILL notice the difference in the UK during the winter - this year was snowier than normal but we were getting up roads that were defeating 4*4s on summer tyres in VW Sharan!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I have a thread on this a while ago and have also taken advice from the local garage who knows what they are talking about. Their advice was not to mix and they should be ok in a British summer (well up north anyway), just watch out for excessive wear
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Boris wrote:
loatie...Winter Tyres will seriously wear out come the spring again.
Not my experience at all. Left mine on all summer and I have probably covered 10k since April. Not measured the difference in tread (because I have a life) but visually they seem to be almost untouched. Not experiencing more road noise or ride harshness either. Rated to 130mph and cheaper than the alternative summer tyre. Vredestein Wintrac 4xtreme - I recommend 'em.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I asked this same question last year, and was told by spyderman that winter tyres on the front only (front wheel drive car) is dangerous.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
pam w, interesting, not what either our garage in CH or FR does, so far they've rotated front to back and left to right each time, and (our car has a similar drive system to yours I think - FWD going AWD when required?) new snow tyres went on front.
In addition, although chains are not advised for the car, if they have to be used, it's front wheels only against risk of screwing up the central diff. (or something).
I actually think this is ridiculous. If you need winter tyres, you need four matching winter tyres (unless your steed is a Reliant Robin). In the overall scheme of things, buying another two tyres is neither here nor there. It amazes me that people can think of skimping on their only point of contact with the road. The German motoring press do loads of tyre tests and, for example, test M+S winter tyres (which can sometimes be a summer tyre with M+S stamped on the side) v. M+S+Snowflake winter tyres and difference is stark when comparing braking distances and ability to pull away on snow. UK press don't seem to bother with it because tyres are "boring" but, as all good snowHeads know well, they are more important than your ski helmet or whether your inner ski tip is leading or not
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
loatie, Mixing Winter & Summer tyres is dangerous.
Here's a video showing the mix of All season tyres and winter tyres. Remember All season tyres are far more capable in winter than a standard summer tyre, the results are pretty shocking and they'd be even worse for a Winter/Summer mix.
If you fit winter tyres to the front only of a FWD car, you'll have the rear end overtaking the front under braking.
Fit winter tyres to the rear of a RWD car and you'll have no steering.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 10-10-10 21:27; edited 1 time in total
under a new name, our car is basic, full time front wheel drive only. I am fully convinced about 4 snow tyres, but maybe the jury is still out on which wheels should have a pair of new ones. But having had such duff advice in Sallanches when we started, I am no longer so trusting in so-called "expert" advice.
I'm not sure they're fully rotatable - they are directional? I'm getting out of my depth here and the tyres are a long way away right now, so I can't check.
There's always something new to learn about winter tyres, I find.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
pam w, You're correct. In your case new tyres to be fitted on the rear. Reasons: to avoid uncontrollable understeer, through the rears having more grip than the driven/sterred front wheels. To avoid tyres being on the car for an excessive period of time, as tyres have shelf life - rear tyres wear far more slowly tan front tyres on a FWD car.
under a new name, Be careful to avoid large differences in tread depth between tyres on vehicles with 4WD, especially those using viscous or electronic differentials. Drive is sent to the rear wheels when a difference in road speed is detected, normally through the driven wheels spinning because of lack of traction. Having excessively worn tyres mixed with new tyres will alter the rolling circumference of the tyres and will lead to different wheel rotational speeds even if you have full traction on a dry road. This could confuse the electronics into sending drive to the wrong axle, which could cause damage to the transmission.
Volvo XC90 are particularly susceptible to this type of damage.
After all it is free
After all it is free
The majority of drivers will not have a clue if they have summer or all season tyres fitted to their cars.
All season tyres DO NOT have a snowflake on them.
In the UK it is unwise to fit summer tyres to your car for all year round use.
As I've said in my first post, fit the better tyres to the rear unless you enjoy waltzing with your car!
Summer tyres / All Season Tyres / M+S Tyres / Winter Tyres are 4 different kind of tyres but people often get them confused.
I've even had an independant tyre place try and sell me an M+S tyre as a Winter tyre, but luckily I know the difference.
The rubber compound of a winter tyre is totally different to M+S tyres.
A lot of motorists select tyres based either on price, or what the garage recommends. And more often than not a garage will recommend whatever tyre thay make most money on!
This is a very complicated subject, and one that cannot be given a simple answer to.
Internet forums are not always the best place for advice, more so when your safety is at risk.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I completely agree that all four wheels should be fitted with winter tyres, if for the only reason that you may get a puncture. In which case you can swap the winter tyres around to fit the drive wheels as necessary, unless of course we get into the "what about a spare winter tyre?" debate.
Many cars have space saver wheels which you would then fit to a non drive wheel/corner, moving that winter tyre to the respective drive wheel. Those who use standard tyres with chains (2WD) would not fit a 2nd set of chains to the non drive wheels (of course not) so the risk of over/understeer remains.
If you were on standard tyres and for, say, your MOT, you need two new ones you would probably only fit two, and not four and quite often people fit whatever they can get, not alway fitting the same tyre model all round, without any ill consequence.
I fit four winter tyres and have a full size (standard) spare, if then I get a puncture I have adequate scope to move the winter tyres around to the drive wheels and can fit a proper tyre for driving the autoroute back to the ferry.
And surely always, always fit your best tyres to the drive wheels.
I'll get me coat...
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
I'll get me coat...
and throw it under the tyres, presumably, to get a bit of grip.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
pam w, Luckily it's chainmail.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
charlichoo wrote:
The majority of drivers will not have a clue if they have summer or all season tyres fitted to their cars.
True
Quote:
All season tyres DO NOT have a snowflake on them.
Wrong, Goodyear Vector 4 Seasons, (which I have) are marked both with the "Snowflake & M+S markings. fixed your long link for you
Quote:
In the UK it is unwise to fit summer tyres to your car for all year round use.
Pretty much 100% of UK new cars are supplied OEM with Summer tyres.
Quote:
As I've said in my first post, fit the better tyres to the rear unless you enjoy waltzing with your car!
Correct. for FWD.
Quote:
Summer tyres / All Season Tyres / M+S Tyres / Winter Tyres are 4 different kind of tyres but people often get them confused.
I've even had an independant tyre place try and sell me an M+S tyre as a Winter tyre, but luckily I know the difference.
The rubber compound of a winter tyre is totally different to M+S tyres.
A Winter or an All-Season tyre is just as likely to carry a M+S rating, the M+S rating has nothing to do with the tyre's compound, more to do with it's tread design. There are plenty of Winter Tyres that also carry the M+S marking, also plenty of All-season tyres that carry M+S marking.
The rubber compound is very different between Winter(high Silicone content) and Summer tyres.
Quote:
This is a very complicated subject, and one that cannot be given a simple answer to.
Internet forums are not always the best place for advice, more so when your safety is at risk.
I don't think tyres are a complicated subject at all.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I'm not sure what tyres were on my hire car in Canada but I drove all over the Rockies during one Feb in it during all types of snowy weather.
If there's one thing that motorbiking has taught me... it doesn't matter what vehicle you have... its only contact with the road is a tiny patch of rubber.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Bode Swiller wrote:
...Not my experience at all. Left mine on all summer and I have probably covered 10k since April. Not measured the difference in tread (because I have a life) but visually they seem to be almost untouched. Not experiencing more road noise or ride harshness either. Rated to 130mph and cheaper than the alternative summer tyre. Vredestein Wintrac 4xtreme - I recommend 'em.
So you seem to be saying that Vredestein Wintrac 4xtreme are all-season tyres. In which case, why do Vredestein sell summer tyres? This site suggests a reason:
Quote:
On damp or wet roads, tyres grip differently - and the braking distance is substantially longer, which means the question of the right tyres and the temperature is even more important. Over 7C - between Easter and October - traditional summer tyres are truly in their element. Between October and Easter - Cold weather winter tyres show distinct safety advantages.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
Be careful to avoid large differences in tread depth between tyres on vehicles with 4WD
Yes, I have some experience of that with a vehicle (of somewhat high performance) where one puncture necessitated 4 new tyres. Ouch!!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
achilles wrote:
Bode Swiller wrote:
...Not my experience at all. Left mine on all summer and I have probably covered 10k since April. Not measured the difference in tread (because I have a life) but visually they seem to be almost untouched. Not experiencing more road noise or ride harshness either. Rated to 130mph and cheaper than the alternative summer tyre. Vredestein Wintrac 4xtreme - I recommend 'em.
So you seem to be saying that Vredestein Wintrac 4xtreme are all-season tyres. In which case, why do Vredestein sell summer tyres? This site suggests a reason:
Quote:
On damp or wet roads, tyres grip differently - and the braking distance is substantially longer, which means the question of the right tyres and the temperature is even more important. Over 7C - between Easter and October - traditional summer tyres are truly in their element. Between October and Easter - Cold weather winter tyres show distinct safety advantages.
An answer to your comment from the MD of Vredestein. Better if running one set of tyres to run Winter all year than Summer all year. I run Vredestein Wintrac's all year and get about 35k miles out of them. Mixing Winter and Summer is not advisable.
Dedicated summer tyres, in summer conditions, perform slightly better than cold weather tyres. However, the difference in winter will be much greater in favour of using a dedicated cold weather application.
I see what he's getting at - though I would also like to have seen quantitative detail on how summer tyres perform better. Given what he has said, I wonder why it has not become the norm winter tyres to become standard all-season tyres. Are winter tyres significantly more expensive than summer ones?
BTW, having been on some astonishing trips to slopes as a passenger in Switzerland last season, I do accept that winter tyres can give amazing grip on snow and ice.
without being judgemental, suggest you sack the butler and buy four tyres
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
skimottaret, I'm really not a fan of Run Flats, the compromises to ride quality are not outweighed by the advantages for me. If you get a puncture in them sure you can still drive, but you've still got to change the tyre. TPS systems with normal tyres IMO is just as good, plus they're cheaper and give a much better ride quality.
After all it is free
After all it is free
nor i but if there isnt room for a spare and the car is factory equipped with run flats you are kinda stuck unless you want a boot full of spare tyre
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
achilles, Summer tyres do outperform winter tyres when the temperature is above 7C, but not with as great a performance advantage as winter over summer tyres below 7C. Best to have 2 sets, but if your only going to have 1 set, better to use winter tyres or all-season all year round. All season aren't as good as summer above 7C and not as good as winter below 7C, but they're better than both outside their design temperatures.
I've been fortunate to buy winter tyres cheaper than the summer ones, it's just availability in UK the can be the problem.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
skimottaret, I had a loan car with run flats and no spare, got a puncture which ripped a hole in the sidewall, had to be recovered home late at night on a truck, then collected again on a truck in the morning to be taken to a tyre fitting shop. Ridiculous.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
In my experience most UK cars have summer tyres not All Season, All Season tyres will generally have mountain and/or snowflake symbol on.
