 Poster: A snowHead
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| kurt von liebewitz wrote: |
For example, ... Verbier will employ good skiers as instructors without previous experience. They will train you themselves, whilst paying you (contrast this to the 000s of pounds BASI will cost you) and give you a job for the winter with guaranteed hours.
The money is good enough to survive on (around £9 an hour... |
er... I paid 48€ for an omelette in Verbs, now I know there are mug punters and seasonairres but even so - €10 an hour? You would need to be moving a line a two in the FLounge or Mont Fort to make ends even see each other, let alone meet
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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red 27, you noticed the date of this thread? Most of the posters are banned, left or otherwise absent.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Guys there is alot of hight quality BASI instructors out there some own and operate their own ski schools through the alps. There is alot of snobery mostly from the French in relation to it but there are a few BASI instructors who are really pushing the envelope when it comes to skiing.
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I appreciate this thread is old, but even in '04 BASI was a forward thinking organisation and in my opinion it apears to have moved on in leaps and bounds since then. Someone commented that BASI is a Scottish (particularly Aviemore) centric organisation. This may have been the case in the 60's, 70's and early 80's, but it certainly isn't the case these days (after all some skiing circles used to refer to BASI members as the 'Aviemorons'  - and some may still do so).
BASI's teaching methods are certainly not designed to create skiers who must ski in a particular way, people are taught to develop skills such as edging, rotation and pressuring rather than techniques (this was the way if you look at the BASI manual 1 from the early 70's and manual 2 from the early 80's - but every other instructor association around the world did it that way too and some still do, including the french system I believe, though please correct me if I'm wrong on that one). An exception to the techniques based route during this period was the ESC (english snowsports now, whom John Shedden took off on the skills based route after I believe the Sapporo Interski of the late 60's early 70's).The Central Theme is proof of this as it is a framework for developing skiers as opposed to a rigid techniques based system. There is no prescribed route to teaching someone to ski you use what you need to get them to where they want to get to.
As regards BASI not being well recognised this is refuted by the fact that BASI is part of the alpine cartel. There are only 4 or is it 5? nations in this and therefore at ISTD level you can work and earn a living for your working life if you choose as a ski teacher (without having a well paid job for the summer months). This is not the case in most countries around the world.
As regards the speedtest this is extremely difficult having sat it once myself I speak from experience. I guy I trained with in 2000 carried on trying to get it and finally passed! 6 years later! This is no reflection on his skiing ability he is a highly talented individual, with a very high fitness level and he will have dedicated that time entirely to getting through the test.
At the test I went to approx 95 people attended mainly french with a smattering of other nationalities mainly brits. ONE man passed 4 women out of about 15 passed. The french I trained with in the previous week complained that the level was too high  . One guy I chatted to who was a very good racer and missed the mark by about 3 seconds (with training reckon to improve by a second per season) was from a french resort he was born there, he had raced since age 6, his dad was an instructor and so was his grandfather said that he thought he may have to give up on it soon as since they changed the test from slalom to GS he figured he couldn't get through no matter how good he got as he was just not physically big enough!
However if you go at the Speedtest for long enough you may be lucky enough to come up against the odd one that gets mucked up! Then a load of people get through (this doesn't happen very often and strangely you don't get to hear of them )
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skir67, thanks for that. It's very interesting for someone like me to read your comments above having recently joined the BASI system myself. I certainly agree with what you said about the BASI way of teaching edging, rotation/twisting and pressuring rather than specific techiniques.
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At the test I went to approx 95 people attended mainly french with a smattering of other nationalities mainly brits. ONE man passed 4 women out of about 15 passed.
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Sorry I'm misunderstanding your quote, but do you mean 5 people passed out of 95 attendances? And 1 man passed and 4 women passed out of those 5 passes? 
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5 people passed in total, 4 women and one man, sorry for the bad grammar I was getting carried away! 
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skir67, ah no problem.  What I'm interested in is that I read it right that 4 women passed and 1 man even though there were a total of 15 women there to start with? (Again not sure if this is right or not?) So is it "easier" (perhaps not the right choice of word there but you know what I mean) for a woman to pass than a man? I know they are allowed slightly shorter skis than men. I am a woman so that's why I'm asking, although I appreciate to even get close it would involve a good few seasons of training purely for the speed test as I have no race background whatsoever. Also out of 95 applicants and 5 to pass that shows just how difficult it is. As such I am thinking I need to set my sights on ISIA and no higher. Shame the ISTD now includes a speed test pass whether you want to work in France or not.
Also, what do you mean about when the odd speed test gets mucked up? Surely the people would have to retake it if this happens as it would be "void"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skir67, ok thanks for clarifying all of that, I appreciate it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skir67,
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As regards the speedtest this is extremely difficult having sat it once myself I speak from experience. I guy I trained with in 2000 carried on trying to get it and finally passed! 6 years later! This is no reflection on his skiing ability he is a highly talented individual, with a very high fitness level and he will have dedicated that time entirely to getting through the test.
At the test I went to approx 95 people attended mainly french with a smattering of other nationalities mainly brits. ONE man passed 4 women out of about 15 passed. The french I trained with in the previous week complained that the level was too high . One guy I chatted to who was a very good racer and missed the mark by about 3 seconds (with training reckon to improve by a second per season) was from a french resort he was born there, he had raced since age 6, his dad was an instructor and so was his grandfather said that he thought he may have to give up on it soon as since they changed the test from slalom to GS he figured he couldn't get through no matter how good he got as he was just not physically big enough!
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Reading this would give me the impression that the Speed Test is virtually impossible to pass, and I would find this at odds with knowing that quite a few people do pass. I feel this thread puts the Eurotest in perspective. Also for Test Technique.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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slikedges, Have you done a speedtest? If so where have you done yours?
I'm not saying its impossible and looking at threads you mention it seems most people agree with me that the standard required is very high. BASI reckon from something I read that average 2/3 people will get through each year. Most of these are likely to be racers with a lot of experience probably started as children and quite probably in a number of cases have been on one of the home nations squads. Therefore unless you have a degree of natural flair (I had a mate with that and he now works as a fully qualified independent in Val D'Isere) starting later in life you make life very tough for yourself. Yes someone may have passed at 42 or 46 or whatever it was, but which one did they pass? If it was one of the (mostly) properly done ones then well done to them they have thoroughly earned their qualification and have my respect. (they have it in any case because you have to keep sitting them until you hit an easier one - and theres no guarantee of that)!
Things now are better than when I was training for it, there are now lots of businesses who will train you (at a high cost) to get through the thing.They know exactly whats involved, what you should expect and how to give you the correct preparation. They have all the gear and enough bodies to make setting courses a reasonably quick proposition. However of course the onus is on the individual.
So more people are possibly getting through in more recent years than previously because people are able to tap into the required resources (if you can afford it).
BTW if you are training for it I sincerely offer my best wishes.
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You know it makes sense.
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skir67, haven't done a speedtest so haven't got a speedtest to have done anywhere
Back to the point, however, I know of many good skiers who have trained for it and passed who are non-racers, not from 3 generations of resort instructors and whom I have no reason to believe are exceptional in any way. I'd imagine that if British skiers with skills originally honed on 100m of plastic can get through, a racer breathed, born and bred on the mountain might generally be expected to do so in relatively short order.
BTW thanks for your best wishes but I'm not and shan't be training for it on account of being too old, too busy and too intermediate 
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Fri 12-09-08 22:27; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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slikedges,
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Back to the point, however, I know of many good skiers who have passed who are non-racers, not from 3 generations of resort instructors and whom I have no reason to believe are exceptional in any way.
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Oh good, that gives me a bit to go on then.
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Poster: A snowHead
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VolklAttivaS5, I felt I should add that they did train hard for it, and as skir67 has said, there are lots of opportunities available now for well-organised and properly focussed training specifically directed towards passing the Eurotest, if you can afford it!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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VolklAttivaS5, Still time then, but if you want to pass it you will need to be completely professional in your approach and give yourself achievable intermediate goals to hit at specific times.
I found I got bogged down with the enormity of the task and managed to get disheartened.
An old mate of mine I think trained with Podium and he passed it (I think he may have trained with other businesses too) and they advertised on their site (not sure if it still exists) the number of students they'd had who had passed the test (of course the passes won't have been entirely down to their efforts, but if they'd had no passing students you might get a bit worried )
Also ISIA does offer a lot more employment opportunities than it used to as many countries schools would not consider employing you without out - many American resorts are like this if you have an h2b (I think) visa. The J1 I think is only an option if you are of a certain age and then you could theoretically get an entry level job.
Of course many countries do employ lower level quals, but then the pay probably makes it difficult to make ski teaching a lifelong career option.
If you can speak to people who have passed it for their views (preferably not someone who runs a speedtest training course - they may have a vested interest, this does of course depend on the individual).
If you do go for it then I hope you pass it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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VolklAttivaS5, There will still be groups doing speed test and Test Technique training when you will be in Tignes in November. You can see what kind of standard is required.
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slikedges, In my opinion anyone who has passed a full speedtest is indeed exceptonal that's why they get paid so well .....plenty of demand and very little supply.
I am also too old (my last season was 8 years ago so I'd be hard pushed to get my skiing back to where it was) and too busy (the joys of a mortgage) 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges,
Also I doubt you are intermediate,  from your posts I would guess that you are also an instructor?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skir67, I think we should start a campaign to make them implement an age-based handicapping system. And I think they should pay my mortgage too.
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slikedges, ooh no I appreciate that, I wasnt thinking someone could just turn up with farely limited training and pass it. I know there is a lot of hard training involved and I think you are right about the amount of specific training courses/camps available now which is brilliant news for anyone wanting to seriously consider going for it.
I thought going on one of the camps myself for 2 weeks next summer would be good to develop one's skiing as I say, running gates is good for anyone to build up skills in that department, and also, it means I can see the people who are going to be taking the test the following season in action. Plus there are lots of other things to do in the afternoons after skiing. Podium Skis summer camp for 12 days tuition, so away 2 weeks, is 625 Euros for course and shared apartment (plus flights, lift pass and transfer of course) or 450 Euros training only, and the Tignes Autumn camps are 220 Euros per week for training plus whatever accomodation and flight costs are. I think that's pretty good for what training you get and from whom. Seems to work out at about 1300-1500 Euros for 2 weeks away training including accomodation, food, flights etc and lift pass. I suspect it would have to be a substitute for a summer holiday though for most people.
Saying that mind you, like you say, it sure can get expensive because most people would have to go on several camps before they would pass the speed test and also of course there are the fees for attempting the test too pass or fail.
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slikedges,
Your age handicapping idea is actually a seriously good one and one that should be considered.
Also if they'd pay my mortgage then I'd forget the test (it doesn't test your teaching ability after all, I believe the canadian system pulls members of the public off the slopes for free lessons and then judge you on the outcomes and your 'customers' feelings - I could be wrong there though) because I love teaching and wouldn't be bothered about a high hourly rate.
VolklAttivaS5, Your right podiums charges are reasonable, but also as you say people generally would need a lot of training and the costs would fairly mount up.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skir67, they've passed 54 people since 2002. I asked Dave Morris a while back now how many of them were from a non race background and I've forgotten how many approximately he said now but I can remember thinking it was a higher number of passes from a non race background than I thought.
I suppose like with anything, it's attitude, want to do it, fitness and specific training that's needed (not necessarily in that order though)
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Also ISIA does offer a lot more employment opportunities than it used to as many countries schools would not consider employing you without out - many American resorts are like this if you have an h2b (I think) visa. The J1 I think is only an option if you are of a certain age and then you could theoretically get an entry level job.
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What's h2b and J1 sorry? I'm not familiar with visa terms and all of that.
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If you can speak to people who have passed it for their views (preferably not someone who runs a speedtest training course - they may have a vested interest, this does of course depend on the individual).
If you do go for it then I hope you pass it.
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Yes I will do that and thanks, I only did my L1 in June mind so I'm a fair while off yet. Just an idea at the moment, I will make sure I get to ISIA as I say but re the ISTD it was more of "I wonder if I've got a chance at all at getting it or nonewhatsoever". We will see anyway.
rjs, I get to Tignes 29th November-I see actually from the Podium Ski website Dave Morris will be there with his Autumn race camps from 2nd November to 12th December as it goes. Snoworks finish their Eurotest training on 29th Nov although they do have Test Technique training from 29th Nov-7th Dec.
I could have a look then what they are all up to as you say particularly as I'm on free ski week 29th Nov-6th Dec before my course starts. Good idea and thanks for alerting me to that!
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VolklAttivaS5, I certainly don't think it's beyond attainment but it is a very tall order. I've been told on many occasions that strength and fitness have as much to do with it as technique and experience, hence the propensity of young'uns who pass. One needs to have pretty strong fundamentals before contemplating paying for focussed training for it. As skir67 has alluded to, it demands a lot of commitment and hard work and improvement from even very good skiers.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 12-09-08 23:08; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Now regarding the Canadian system someone mentioned earlier which doesn't require Eurotest for their highest level? Say someone gets to CSIA Level 4 which is the BASI ITSD equivalent yes? Or no?
Well, if it is the equivalent then are the opportunities to work in Europe limited as a CSIA L4? (I assume they'd have to take Eurotest anyway to work in France) Do they not get paid as much as a BASI ITSD?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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VolklAttivaS5, 54 is a good number since 02, I wonder how many passed at Garmisch?
H2b visa is a temporary seasonal visa for the states covers things like experienced qualified instructors (normally ISIA) from what I've seen on ski areas websites and other skills for which they get seasonal shortages (agricultural workers and suchlike). In some years the ski areas sponsor you for one of these if they want to employ at other bad economic times (like now) they will only take on h2b holders who are extending their visas.
J1 is a visa from what I can see for people up to a certain age (young) who want experiential temporary work in the states. If you've got a J1 they will take you on as a entry level instructor (quite often meaning you end up in kindergarten - though this is a brilliant place to learn teaching skills if your attitude to it is right i.e you can get your kids 'head' on easily! 
As you have level 1 already if you are really determined to get to ISTD I wouldn't even do any more instructor exams and concentrate fully on racing and personal performance. This is a slightly radical idea, but in all honesty if BASI know you've passed the speedtest you will move through the later exams relatively easily IMHO. After all the tech head of BASI went straight in at old grade 1 level and was exempt the speedtest as his FIS points were low enough (awesome skier).
I know this has changed in the modern day and sure you wouldn't just turn up expecting to pass having put in no work on teaching, demos etc, but the truth is most trainers have businesses in France and they need employees to expand those businesses. Sorry just an economic reality in my opinion and sure they could employ french or other nationals, but they really want british teachers because I think brit instructors in a lot of cases provide a good 'product' to their customers.
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slikedges, as I say realistically I am happy setting my sights on ISIA.
Also, I already have one career so I don't necessarily need another one through a full time ski teaching career although working in the mountains instead of an office would obviously be nice. I could do that part time with my ISIA or even with my L2 although the wages would obviously be a lot less.
I think before paying to go on one of those race training camps, a far cheaper way i.e free of seeing what's what is to observe the people going through the training in Tignes as rjs kindly mentioned. That's a really good idea. Saying that, I do know of many people and some SH's who go on say, the Snoworks Race weeks just for fun and to develop and hone their skiing techniques rather than because they are training up for the speed test or test technique and treat it like a training holiday if you like. Those Race weeks look like they are more expensive than the specialist Eurotest training camp weeks that Podium ski offer in the summer and autumn months to be fair. They look like excellent value to be honest.
So even if I went on one of those I would still come back further on in my own skiing I mean than before I went so it wouldn't necessarily be a waste of money even if I decided that the speedtest was way out of my league (or was not prepared to spend the thousands of pounds overall training for and taking it!)
Once again-good idea rjs!
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You know it makes sense.
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VolklAttivaS5, I read a document within the last couple of weeks and I think it was off these forums. Basically it showed what level you could go into basi if you had another nations qualification. At best it appeared that you would have to pass all the ISTD modules and the speedtest to then be able to work in France. Even the french weren't exempt
However I don't know how up to date the document was
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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VolklAttivaS5, Eurotest is a requirement of the Euro Group pro ski cartel for their highest level qualification (ISTD in UK, Moniteur National in France, Staatlicher in Austria etc). This includes France, Austria, Italy, UK, Ireland, Germany, the Netherlands, Denmark, Belgium, Spain, I think Slovenia, at least one Scandinavian country and maybe others. The CSIAs highest qualification is Level IV which carries no direct equivalence with the Euro Group but I understand the Tech level is very high and includes some timed race element. You need a Euro Group top level cert to obtain the French equivalence required in order to be entitled to work in France autonomously. Rumour is however that ISIA is going to issue a red and a black card in order to promote a uniform or at least comparable standard so that the existing level of ISIA will be red and a new higher black level will be created to encompass Euro Group top level and CSIA and other non-Euro Group top levels. Of course, France may or may not recognise this.
My long-term goal would be ISIA (red ) also.
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Poster: A snowHead
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God, I wish they created and allowed red level ISIA to work in France I would be in there like a shot! However I read something that alluded to this as an unsubstantiated rumour (I think it was in Andy Lockerbies piece) in the latest BASI newsletter.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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As you have level 1 already if you are really determined to get to ISTD I wouldn't even do any more instructor exams and concentrate fully on racing and personal performance. This is a slightly radical idea, but in all honesty if BASI know you've passed the speedtest you will move through the later exams relatively easily IMHO. After all the tech head of BASI went straight in at old grade 1 level and was exempt the speedtest as his FIS points were low enough (awesome skier).
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skir67, I'm sure you are right about that and I think that is sound advice, I believe anyone as long as they are at least a BASI Level 2/old G3 can take a Eurotest and claim the pass before they even go on and take the ISIA modules even, so there is a lot to be said for those keen individuals wanting to pass it getting on with it while they have time (and no injuries come to mention it) on their side before taking the rest of the higher modules.
I think for me however, in reality it would cost me too much in training altogether for it to be worthwhile long term. It must take a good few years to get the money back from all the training including BASI courses once you get to ISTD level despite them commanding the highest wage. I would like to see what it entails though and see a few GS courses being skied in practice in Tignes just out of interest since I'm there anyway at the time, no extra money spent then.
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I know this has changed in the modern day and sure you wouldn't just turn up expecting to pass having put in no work on teaching, demos etc, but the truth is most trainers have businesses in France and they need employees to expand those businesses. Sorry just an economic reality in my opinion and sure they could employ french or other nationals, but they really want british teachers because I think brit instructors in a lot of cases provide a good 'product' to their customers.
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Yes, again this makes sense and I do know of some British ski schools who are keen only to employ British teachers. I think they believe it gives them a big selling point having only British instructors employed within their ski school. I'm sure some of them (in France) would employ instructors at less than ISTD level in reality if they could (or ISIA with a Eurotest pass) because you don't have to be at ISTD level to teach the beginner classes up to parallel and other countries allow this as we know but because of the regulations in France they cannot do that, which is a shame.
By the way does anyone know of anyone who has managed to get a job in a British ski school in France with ISIA level without a Eurotest pass or is that completely unheard of? I know you can be ISIA as a Stagiere within ESF but wondered if it can be done within a British school? I think not.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skir67, I think our posts have crossed. I ask this question at the bottom of my post above.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skir67,
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I read a document within the last couple of weeks and I think it was off these forums. Basically it showed what level you could go into basi if you had another nations qualification. At best it appeared that you would have to pass all the ISTD modules and the speedtest to then be able to work in France. Even the french weren't exempt
However I don't know how up to date the document was
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Yes, it was on here, I saw it as well. I think it was an old document but was up to date as far as I could see.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges,
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The CSIAs highest qualification is Level IV which carries no direct equivalence with the Euro Group but I understand the Tech level is very high and includes some timed race element.
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Oh, didn't know that. It's a shame that with a BASI L2 you can work in a resort everywhere else in Europe (AFAIK) but in France you can't. After all like I say, you don't need to be an ISTD to teach the beginners how to snowplough and that could leave the top guys to spend time with the higher end skiers that need a high level teacher.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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skir67, I can't read the newsletters as I haven't got my L2 yet and therefore am not an Associate Member.
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slikedges,
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Rumour is however that ISIA is going to issue a red and a black card in order to promote a uniform or at least comparable standard so that the existing level of ISIA will be red and a new higher black level will be created to encompass Euro Group top level and CSIA and other non-Euro Group top levels. Of course, France may or may not recognise this.
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So are you saying that there will (possibly) be a black ISIA level underneath ISTD? And the black ISIA level will be the same as CSIA L4 etc, so still less than ISTD but more than our ISIA now?
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VolklAttivaS5, black ISIA would be equivalent to ISTD, red level to ISIA, CSIA l4 would go into basi at the red level and have to do all istd modules to get to the black level.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skir67, so csia 3 and csia 4 would both be red?
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FAQ
. There was a large bare patch on this piste on the day of the test. So they moved it to a blue piste above the stade (directly above the stade and the resort as you look up from the croisette - sorry don't know its name). This piste is an easy blue it has relatively steeper pitches followed by flats!
I'm 30 next year! Eek better get a move on. Saying that there is no way I could have got into it earlier anyway as I have only been skiing since March 2006 really (albeit quite a few weeks per season mind you) and also got BASI tuition very early on so have been "in tune" from the beginning pretty much if you like. I was thinking I might tootle along to one of Dave Morris's (Podium Ski) Eurotest training camps next summer in LDA after I've done my BASI L2 just to have a look what it actually entails (had a look at the cost and it's quite reasonable actually for 2 weeks away), if nothing at all then it would certainly help improve my skiing running gates every day for a fortnight and wouldn't be disimilar to the Race week courses that Snoworks do in the summer months I would have thought. At least then I can gauge exactly how much work would be needed to pass the speed test. Lots I know but I'm hoping I might be one of them with a bit of natural ability. 