Short and long turns for analysis

A snowHead

Two weeks ago in Hintertux, with no offpiste skiing to speak of, I worked on technique on piste. One surprise was that, in the long turns at least, my position is nowhere as dynamic (flexed, angulated) as I thought it was.

So here's a clip with both short and long turns for analysis. Sorry for the quality - the GoPro used for the short turns had a foggy lens, and the DSLR used for the long turns had only a short lens on, so I had to crop to get something usable.

Your comments are very welcome - errors, things to focus on, etc - thanks!

(Snow conditions - pretty good as you can see, steepness closer to blue than red run, and I was on Kneissl Tankers with 93mm underfoot and 23m radius).

http://youtube.com/v/DZsF3KBbwaw

A snowHead

horizon, a few things that I could see from a quick watch.

Not sure that your short radius turns (I assume these are the behind cam view ones) are actually SR turns but rather what I would term medium radius.

There are a few things happening in your skiing i.e. a small inside ski step before the turn in your first turns amongst some other things but I will try and focus on what I think might make a bigger difference to your performance level rather than small issues. These small things also tend to iron themselves out with better technique and application.

You do have some nice smooth progressive movement going in your turns but IMO you need to get even more dynamic with your shorter radius turns and actually work the skis a bit more. But that I mean, trying to get onto an edge as early into the new turn as possible and driving the skis around the initial arc and phases of the turn.

On your 2nd set of turns (longer radius) you look like you are a little bit inside i.e. a bit too much weight on the inside ski. You can see how on your 2nd to last turn (to the right) a little bump knocks you as you are not as much over your outside ski as you could be.
You need to get over your new downhill ski as early as possible and progressively increase this 'angulation/hip-rib pinch feeling' through the turn. You will also increase angulation by relaxing your knees a bit more into the turn as you go around the arc.

Those are the main things I would focus on initially if I was trying to improve your skiing. All IMHO of course Smile

I would also add that 93mm underfoot with a 23m radius will be a lot more difficult to do work SR turns, than say a SL ski

*edited for spelling error and duplication

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Touchguru, good point about the short turns - after I posted I remembered that I was aiming at something closer to medium turns in that clip.

I'll read the other points in more detail. Thanks!

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I'm not a ski instructor but here's my 2 euro cent.

You don't appear to flow through the whole turn but instead change edges quickly and stand on the edge for a second or two then release. Try changing edge angle quickly between turns but gradually increase the edge angle and then release it gradually rather than on, stand, off. Sometimes you also look banked as though a little more hip angulation would help. More flexion in the turns and getting the skis to cross-under your body in the short turns would help. Looks like you are pushing your inner ski forward when all you have to do is keep 'em parallel and roll 'em over.

http://youtube.com/v/NpleOZtz8aY

http://youtube.com/v/5ubXb27KX_Y&feature=related

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I'd echo Touchguru's comments. There didn't appear to be much difference in turn radius between your shorts and longs, the difference in turn shape depended how how long you "held" the turn (ie how much of an arc you allowed the skis to follow before starting the next turn).

With your shorts you initiate the turn with clear extension, but this makes the skis look 'light' so they don't grip until after the fall line. You also push the skis out to the side, which also means less grip in the first half of the turn. I think if you could find more grip the skis would turn more quickly so the radius they follow will be smaller than the path they followed in that clip (although a 93mm/r23m ski built like a Tanker will take some effort to do good short radius turns!). To get more grip I think you should focus on what you do at the start of the turn. You already have really good flex/extend movements, so playing around with the rate and timing of these movements will make a big difference. Make the extension at the start of the turn a bit more progressive, so you can feel the pressure build up as you push the ski's edge against the snow rather than popping up and making the ski light and drifty. Once the ski begins to grip more there will be less need to push the ski sideways to make it turn quickly. Have a look at the opening video in this thread for some nice, grippy shorts.

For your longs I thought the transition from one turn to another was a bit too abrupt, and similarly to your shorts you push the ski out at the start of the turn to create an initial steering angle. You also open your hips and/or allow your outside foot to drop behind you so you don't have a strong, stacked platform to manage the forces that build up in high speed long radius turns. This might account for the limited edge angles that you are creating. A couple of ideas to think about for your longs:

1. Be more patient at the start of the turn and just roll from one set of edges to another. Once you start to create some angles and your skis begin to carve/grip the snow keep dropping your hip in to the turn to create even bigger angles to tighten the turn.

2. Push your outside foot forwards as you move through the turn. This will, hopefully, keep your hips from opening too much so you have a stronger stance.

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horizon, With the long turns, I like to think simply about "long leg short leg" as you are nearing the end of the turn start to gradually push down on and extend off what will become your new outside ski this will initiate the edge change, as the new outside ski starts to grip and support you, start to soften/shorten your inside leg, the more you the extend the outside leg and shorten the inside leg the more angle you can achieve, your stance will widen also though the turn, if possible it would be much easier to practise with shorter radius skis you'll be able to create bigger angles at much slower speeds, you are traveling at quite a pace and I'm wondering if this is why your not holding on to your turns long enough to create bigger angles, shorter radius and slower speeds will encourage confidence to hold on to the turn longer beyond the falline with less effort! The more you practise with the thought of "long leg short leg" the more in sync the legs will become.

Edit, works for me anyway!

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

It should be mentioned that, like me, horizon skis almost entirely off piste. His technique is thus adapted to breakable crust etc.

(Hi, Horizon, I'm not in a position to criticise your skiing as you know from long experience!)

After all it is free

horizon. I think the reason your Go-Pro was misting is you were using the sealed back, try the vented one it should sort it out. Technically I think its to do with the change in barometric pressure as you go up or down a mountain. Some snowhead may have a better explanation but i'm only concerned that it's getting in the way of you capturing your moves on film.

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horizon, I am by no means an expert, but am finding it interesting to view and see if I can spot anything. Funny that you have some very similiar 'traits' to me in the 'pop' (old school) vs the more gradual flex. I found counting a rhythm really helped here, both with stopping the pop and also introducing flow - either in your head or out loud ie sink 1, 2 3, stand and transfer the weight 1, 2, 3, sink 1, 2, 3 etc etc

I'd be careful about 'pushing' the outside ski away, on my BASI L1 my trainer spotted I was doing that, ending up with a straight outer leg, but not enough weight on it. For me I found it more beneficial to concentrate on standing on my new outer ski, with flexion and then driving the edge, that worked better for me, rather than just 'pushing' it away. This picks up on rob@Rars point on being patient and not forcing the turn by pushing the ski away, before it has enough pressure on it.

There is also something going on with your arms, I think its a minor thing but would help off piste alot, you seem to bring your hand(s) in across your chest (I do/did the same thing, hence the interest) and then fling it out again to pole plant,keeping your hands in your peripheral vision all the time will give you a more balanced platform, with just a cock of the wrists to pole plant.

snowball, you can do an awful lot of work on posture, balance and weight transfer on piste that will reap rewards off...

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horizon, I personally reckon your looking pretty tidy in this video, I think it would be unfair given the equipment used to give comment, you are doing a fine job considering & I really think you should get on some more lively skis designed for the type of turns you are practising, something with more energy in the tails will make it much easier to initiate the next turn with less effort from you.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

horizon, FFS, you can ski, just go Skiing, simples innit.

A snowHead

horizon, again I am no expert on analysing peoples skiing and I am not an instructor. But I agree with kitenski. You seem to be pushing away the outside ski. Pushing away this outside ski will cause your most of your weight to be on your inside ski. When the snow is nice and soft you probably won't fall with this technique but if you ski anything a bit firmer then you might 'washout' and fall to the inside of a turn.

Try javelin turns and focus on standing on the outside ski. Sliding the outside ski forward was a tip that rob@rar gave me a few years ago and I highly recommend a lesson.

Sometimes it is easy to say that you are using the ‘wrong’ skis for what you are doing but you can defiantly get heaps more performance out of the skis than you are at the moment. This is a great thing!!

A snowHead

horizon,
This may make it a little simpler to see what's going on

[img]http://youtube.com/v/iMeCHbhvKyU[/img]

http://youtube.com/v/iMeCHbhvKyU

Have a look at the action between 17 secs and 25 secs ?

Check the hips being used to initiate

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Pushing the skis out to the side maybe a bit of a red herring on this occasion with the short turns, again and as rob@rar, has also mentioned on the expectation of performance from these skis for this, It's most likely the result of trying to steer long/longer radius skis into doing short turns, the video may look very different if horizon, was on tighter radius skis, less steering required and more use of the skis extra sidecut.

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SMALLZOOKEEPER, You took the words right out of my mouth.

horizon, If you take the time and expense to ski Chile and Glaciers in October you are prretty dedicated compared to the average Brit skier - I'd wager you can probably ski most terrain and/or conditions confidently with a good degree of speed control and still maintain a good degree of style.

However for most it should always an important aim to keep wanting to progress technically though shouldnt it.

Its funny how video clips are always a bit dissapointing when viewed back,they tend to make us look less godlike. wink

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rob@rar, in the long turns though horizon, has said he is not getting the angles he'd hoped for and given his history not surprisingly appears he naturally skis with more even pressure on both skis as opposed to getting more on and over the outside ski, so I can't really make out if its because of this he is just lacking grip or indeed as you say pushing the ski out.

It would still be interesting to see him on a decent set of piste skis doing the same type of turns though, it would be interesting to hear if he has had much experience with piste orientated skis.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

horizon, Grab a weeks race training. It will be a good counter point to the off piste and be good fun.

After all it is free

horizon, the following comments come with "I've never skied anything 112 underfoot, so I'd like to see how well I'd short turn them" caveat...

I don't think you are pushing your outside ski out. In fact, I think that outside leg is doing splendidly. (If you were pushing then it would be going straight. It's not.)

What I think is happening is that that outside leg is doing it's stuff, but ends up being blocked by your inside leg, which is, in turn, being blocked by what you're doing with your hips.

If you look at the Chile clip then you'll notice that your hips remain facing down the fall line all the time. What this means is that your hips (and CoM) drop to the inside of the turn at the end of the turn and you physically can't work the inside ski because you've reach the end of your range of external rotation of the hip in the hip socket. It's also what's causing the little A Frame (membership of A Framer's Anon available from my good self...) that you can see here:

(All due apologies. You can find equally horrible material in my skiing if you pluck a single frame out. But this is a position you repeatedly get to.)

Compare your skiing to this clip:

youtube.com/v/QMJi6slZ-0I

You'll notice that the skier (Jaz at BASS Morzine, who is a BASI Trainer) keeps his hips much more square to the skis. What this means is that his inside leg still has rotational room left when your range of movement has finished.

(Another way of saying this is that you're separating at the hip socket and need to separate at the waist instead.)

Doing what you're doing also means that you never really get a really solid platform to edge from at turn transition because your CoM starts behind, rather than over the skis, and you have ground to make up before you can influence the skis.

You're a really skilful skier and this will be a relatively easy thing to fix once you focus on it.

Another point is that in both of the two Hintertux clips you appear to be continuously picking up speed down the run, which is caused by you not steering the skis across the fall line enough. You can see at 0:41 in the first clip that you're clearly trying to scrub speed, rather than controlling your speed through the line you ski. Given your preference for skiing off-piste this isn't surprising as generally off-piste one would try to keep the skis in the fall line and use the snow conditions to slow you down. It's just a case of hanging onto the turns a bit longer.

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rob@rar, I've re-watched and re-read and see what you mean. Duh. I was talking about pushing out and bracing at the bottom half of the turn. I agree that Horizon is pushing at the start of the turn.

It raises an interesting question of priorities. Focus on being more effective in the front half of the turn, or on being balanced at transition / initiation. I'd favour fixing the latter first, but would welcome the debate.

You know it makes sense.

No need for apologies at all, this is very interesting, although I admit that I'll have to be on the slope trying things out before I can really understand all the details.

Re "too much pressure at the end of the turn" - I feel that sometimes, but it seems to me that completing my turns across the slope even more (as FlyingStantoni suggests above, and I think he's right) would lead to even more pressure at that stage, as the direction of movement changes?

SMALLZOOKEEPER, worry not, I WILL go ski and enjoy myself Toofy Grin

But if I can improve something, and the very generous posters on sH are giving me ideas, why not?

(One example where I felt I could do with better technique was in the Super C couloir in Portillo. The entrance was 45-47 degrees with grabby but relatively packed snow. I resorted to jump turns, and double pole plants I'm afraid, to keep things under control. Maybe I should post a clip from lower down in the Super C, you can see some of the faults quite clearly - though in my defence, it wasn't the easiest skiing in the world and I wasn't likely to carve perfect round turns there).

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

rob@rar, Respect - really innovative teaching there, good to see instructors being inventive! That's one for the toolbox!

A snowHead

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horizon, i think carving in Super C would have been a bad idea most of the way down, although pressure management is really important in that type of skiing I find

I'm enjoying this thread. Horizon is better than me but I think I share some of the issues like a bit too much old school counter Little Angel

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FlyingStantoni, Laughing

Apologies for off-topic [/Boris] mode.

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Short and long turns for analysis

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