 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hello all, been a watcher for a while and a keen visitor to Hemel since it opened, so I thought I'd post. I know one of the patrollers really well and it's easy to see why they aren't really bothered. When the slope first opened there were 3-4 patrollers on the slope at any time, now there are 2, originally there was 1 at the top, 1 on each lift and another maybe having a few runs or having a break. They'd then rotate round to break the monotony. Now there are 2 they're pretty much stuck in their positions and when 1 has a break it leaves 1 patroller only.
These guys are pretty much on minimum wages and are only doing it for the free riding. Sitting in the cold bored senseless, I'd imaging it would be hard to get up any enthusiasm for the job. I'm in HR and I know it's hard to get and keep good people if they're paid poorly, have poor working conditions and if they don't feel like a valued member of staff.
I've seen a few lessons on the main slope recently when they had jumps and rails on both sides with just a skinny bit down the middle, it was pretty icy too. One instructor had a lesson where they were doing snow plough turns from the top. The people in the class were really struggling and falling a lot. I can't see how a class learns anything or how the instructor can teach anything, when it's just a case of survival on each run.
I go down to ride just to practice a few turns and look forward to my next trip, don't do rails or jumps, I'd normally go on a Thursday night, but that seems to be park night now like Friday night, which is fine if it's like Friday where it's advertised as freestyle night so you know what you'll get if you turn up. Thursday's started as a clear slope, then maybe a jump and rail, last time I went on a Thursday, I think there were 7 bits of park stuff on the slope, very little safety netting, people throwing themselves all over the place, which is fine if you're not going there just to ski/board, but their were people just trying to do some normal turns in the little strip down the middle with people flying at then from each side off of the rails and jumps. Mixed in with this was a couple of lessons too.
Nightmare - I'm not going back on a Thursday again. I think my only choice now for anything like a clear slope is a Tuesday, Monday is racers night and Wednesday is bumps night. Looks like I'll be going there a lot less as Tuesdays are difficult at work for me.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Ruby wrote: |
These guys are pretty much on minimum wages and are only doing it for the free riding. Sitting in the cold bored senseless, I'd imaging it would be hard to get up any enthusiasm for the job. I'm in HR and I know it's hard to get and keep good people if they're paid poorly, have poor working conditions and if they don't feel like a valued member of staff.
I've seen a few lessons on the main slope recently when they had jumps and rails on both sides with just a skinny bit down the middle, it was pretty icy too. One instructor had a lesson where they were doing snow plough turns from the top. The people in the class were really struggling and falling a lot. I can't see how a class learns anything or how the instructor can teach anything, when it's just a case of survival on each run.
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Welcome to snowHeads. On the first point i have quoted the guys are paid to do a job, minimum wage is not a consideration,. If they are just there for the free riding they shoudl be dismissed. On the second point I have quoted, I thought it worth capturing but I'll leave it to an instructor to comment.
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holidayloverxx, Thanks for your welcome.
I beleive that paying the minimum or near the minimum wage for the job is a consideration. In offering free skiing/boarding as part of the package in order to pay less, the motivation to do the job is exactly that, the free skiing. I can't see anyone wanting to do the job at or near minimum wage if they had no interest in being able to ski for free.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ruby, I'm not saying they shouldn't have an interest in skiing for free, and indeed that would be the attraction, but they are being paid, whether in cash or in kind, to discharge thier duties and presumably they agreed with the duties of a snow patroller by virtue of accepting the job. If those duties are not being discharged to the required standard they should be dismissed then there'd be no free skiing at all.
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Ruby, Welcome to snowHeads, do you remember the first snowHeads bash there? I said to you and Pete that the slope patrol seemed unsure of themselves to which both of you said, well, it's early days, or something similar. 
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Boredsurfing, I think you've confused me with someone else, I've never been to a snowheads event, my nick-name is Ruby because I've always liked curry. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ruby, I know where you are coming from but a lot of people aren't terribly well paid for what they do, probably work more intensively and don't get the perks these guys do. Even more people generally feel underpaid and undervalued in their jobs (rightly or wrongly). Not saying it's all good or rosy but nevertheless people need to try to conduct themselves professionally in their work = do the work they're paid for. This is brought into focus most sharply if customer facing. I think if someone is just there to blag the perks and doesn't care about doing the job (and I'm not saying the ones you know are like this), it's time to move on isn't it?
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If I was a slope patroller I'd regard chucking people off the slope as a perk of the job.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's not just Hemel that experiences this problem
I was taken out by an out of control young female at Chill Factore in Manchester who skied straight into me when I was standing talking to some people in what I thought was a safe position behind the safety net at the bottom of the slope. She hit the net with such force that she knocked me over
On being helped to the first aid room with bruising and mild concussion I was amazed to hear her parents saying that it was the second time in a week that she had done this and that she really should take lessons, to which she replied that there was no need as it was cool to ski fast and that if she hit anyone it was their fault and that they should get out of the way quicker
Oh, and by the way the snow patrol thought it was quite funny to see someone hit behind the safety net
How do you change the mindset of people like that?
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You know it makes sense.
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valleyboy you sue them and the venue for not ensuring the safety of their patrons (assuming they have rules about use of the slope[/b]
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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valleyboy,
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Oh, and by the way the snow patrol thought it was quite funny to see someone hit behind the safety net.
How do you change the mindset of people like that? |
Discipline the Piste patrol staff and remove the out of control skier from the main piste!
I doubt if either will happen though, until someone ends up in intensive care. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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I can only speak for Hemel, but the safety netting there is the same stuff as used in WC Downhill races, it will stop you, no doubt about it. Of course it's going to deform as its hit to absorb the energy and slow the faller down slowly, if it didn't you might as well hit a brick wall. If you stand close behind it when it's hit, of course you're going to be hit.
Don't get too close to the back of the net, simple really.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I saw ski patrol kick someone out from Hemel last Thursday and the slope was much wider than last time I went too. Had about 2/3 of the piste and jumping all on one side so out my way. Gave me more room to miss all those annoying snowboarders.  My two experiences of Hemel have been a lot less dangerous and busy than a last run home in a resort but maybe I've just been lucky?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Perhaps some sort of "license to ski" is a possiblity. Granted to those who have done the necessary lessons there or first time visitors having to put in a few turns to get one.
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Colin B, The centre requires all users of the main slope to sign in and state they are of rec standard. Typically when someone is out of control their first response is that they havent been on skis for x years and are finding their feet, we normally then tell them to start half way up the slope and keep an eye on them. If they cant ski they are ejected.
Yesterday i booted three boarders off the lesson slope where i was working, they then went on the main slope and were ejected after one run by piste patrol. I removed a father who was taking his daughter up on the poma between his legs. Daughter burst into tears but the patrol held firm. Most of the problems I see is people who refuse to pay for lessons and blag their way onto the slope... Only ocassionally it is out of control people
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I doubt if either will happen though, until someone ends up in intensive care.
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BMF_Skier, on what basis do you make such an ignorant statement? People are removed all the time and safety is of utmost importance.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, Statement not ignorant but a real fact fro my own experience. Sorry if it ruffles your feathers old man! Seems like you are on the side of safety and well done too!.
There's plenty of comments about in this and other postings that show previous situations where it's not so good. Particularly see valleyboy above.
I wouldn't want overbearing regulation, but thats the difficult situation out of control slope users may put us all in.
The first time a serious accident happens the manure WILL hit the fan.
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BMF_Skier, You have spent exactly how long in The Snow Centre? let me make a guess a few hours.. and that fact somehow qualifies you to say that a business that has been operating for over 18 months, has had thousands of customers and to my knowledge has not had any life threatening or serious injuries due to collisions, is that the management and staff dont care and that it will take a traumatic event for them to take safety seriously. 
It ruffles my feathers when people make damaging statements without any knowledge about what they are on about. in other words ignorance.
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I'm as concerned as anyone is to have a safe environment. valleyboy was at a different slope altogether. Being a paying customer, I'm entitled to these concerns.
Peter Gillespie made a much more reasonable response to the concerns expressed by myself and others.
skimottaret ....
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| Yesterday i booted three boarders off the lesson slope where i was working, they then went on the main slope and were ejected after one run by piste patrol. ........... |
Following this statement I noticed above you stated :-
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| Since the place opened I have never had to boot anyone out but have certainly given stern and final warnings |
So these were your first? Excellent job! Keep up the good work!
BTW, living in Manchester, and near Chill Factore makes travelling to Hemel an very infrequent event. Until the CFe was built Leeds was the nearest, before that Rossendale dry slope.
Edited for clarity....
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BMF_Skier, yes they were the first people i HAD to remove, most people respond well when asked to slow down or to behave better and a polite word or a stern telling off has been enough in my experience, ensuring safety without upsetting or ejecting customers is a job well done. I guess your approach would be more draconian.
being a "concerned citizen" is one thing but making sweeping unfounded statements about a business's attitude towards its customers safety is another.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Got to laugh at this thread a little! TSC has easily the best snow in any UK dome but it is the shortest and although it claims to be widest (or one of) once the beginners area is fenced off its not as wide as any except Tamworth. As such TSC probably should have the lowest capacity of the domes, yet attracts possible the most with its London catchment area and great snow! Only been once (for a BASI course) and could see the potential for these problems then.
The amount of slope in the picture shown in the first post is a disgrace. Who am I to judge but I think TSC are trying to please to many people. I know the race club has an 'interest' in the slope but perhaps there sessions should be reduced Dec-March and freestyle reduced.
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skimottaret, Sweeping, unfounded statements ? Just my opinions being stated. No more than others in this thread and other threads. I take it you're disagreeing with fatbob as well?
| fatbob wrote: |
| There was one girl who before the race lane was even closed nearly wiped out an instructor and 2 pupils before exploding. I myself got clipped by somone out of control (possibly a sh?) and got some bruised toes for the privilege. There was another girl who was lying on the slope with her skis off virtually every lap. Even with a race lane up would have been fine if there hadn't been the kicker and box still up. Lift maintenance issues were also apparent. Quite likely to be my last visit before next May as I don't particularly want to get hurt. |
Slope users do need to be educated both in safety control and etiquette. That's a difficult job that I'm glad I'm not responsible for. Really impressed that out of control slope users are spoken to.
We're 'almost' agreeing for the most part, for those we don't ... we'll have to agree to disagree ! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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BMF_Skier, while I agree with your broad sentiment I think this statement is not a good reflection of Hemel's attitude to seeking to balance the interests of all the people who want to use the slope:
| BMF_Skier wrote: |
Discipline the Piste patrol staff and remove the out of control skier from the main piste!
I doubt if either will happen though, until someone ends up in intensive care. |
It is not accurate to say that out of control skiers will not be removed until someone ends up in intensive care. This does happen now, and not in response to a tragic incident (which as far as I know has never been the case). I've seen some people ejected from the slope. They tend to be people who have very little control but who charge down the slope as fast as gravity and a couple of incompetently performed heel pushes will allow. On those occasions the slope patrol have a fairly easy decision to make: ask people to slow down and ski under control, and if they don't they are required to leave the slope. On other occasions it's not so clear cut. What should you do with somebody who is trying their best to ski under control and is travelling at a slow speed but falling over a lot and might be in danger of bumping in to somebody at less than walking pace? It's a tough call, and I occasionally will discuss this with slope patrol and don't envy the decision they have to make. Would I like more consistency applied to ensuring dangerous behaviour is curtailed? Yes, I would. But I wouldn't say that this kind of behaviour is ignored.
It is good that Pete Gillespie has replied to this thread, and I know that conversations have taken place at Hemel place as a result of these and other comments. So to imply that the Snow Centre will not act until something terrible is wide of the mark IMO.
To avoid confusion I should point out that I don't speak on behalf of the Snow Centre in any capacity.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The way evictions are carried out at Tamworth are the piste monkeys radio through that a erratic/dangerous slope user is about and the shift/floor manager comes out. He'll watch one run and ask them to go into the rental area and havr a word, they then decide to evict or ask them to slow/calm down.
Seems to work ok! Takes away the responsibility of the min wage piste monkey yet keeps the slope safe.
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Rob,
It might have been better if you'd made it clearer that my statement was a response to a specific earlier post. Rather than it being used out of context. It was referring specifically to a CFe incident. NOT Hemel ! That point was also missed by Scott.
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| So to imply that the Snow Centre will not act until something terrible is wide of the mark IMO. |
I did not state or imply anthing of the sort about Hemel!
| valleyboy wrote: |
It's not just Hemel that experiences this problem
I was taken out by an out of control young female at Chill Factore in Manchester who skied straight into me when I was standing talking to some people in what I thought was a safe position behind the safety net at the bottom of the slope. She hit the net with such force that she knocked me over
On being helped to the first aid room with bruising and mild concussion I was amazed to hear her parents saying that it was the second time in a week that she had done this and that she really should take lessons, to which she replied that there was no need as it was cool to ski fast and that if she hit anyone it was their fault and that they should get out of the way quicker
Oh, and by the way the snow patrol thought it was quite funny to see someone hit behind the safety net
How do you change the mindset of people like that? |
valleyboy,
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Oh, and by the way the snow patrol thought it was quite funny to see someone hit behind the safety net.
How do you change the mindset of people like that? |
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Discipline the Piste patrol staff and remove the out of control skier from the main piste!
I doubt if either will happen though, until someone ends up in intensive care. |
In the example above even being taken to the first aid room at CFe appears to have had little effect.
As I'm not in any way suggesting that learners cannot use the main slope and as you stated its a thin line to tread.
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You know it makes sense.
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BMF_Skier, I didn't realise that your comment referred to another snowdome - apologies for skim reading. It's just that your comment sort of leapt out at me which is why I responded to it. Is it that much worse at CFe?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| manicpb wrote: |
The way evictions are carried out at Tamworth are the piste monkeys radio through that a erratic/dangerous slope user is about and the shift/floor manager comes out. He'll watch one run and ask them to go into the rental area and havr a word, they then decide to evict or ask them to slow/calm down.
Seems to work ok! Takes away the responsibility of the min wage piste monkey yet keeps the slope safe. |
That sounds like a good idea. It has seemed to me sometimes at Hemel that there aren't enough staff members on the slope to deal with more than one problem at a time. When the slope is really busy - and I've seen this happen - you can easily have one dangerous nutter on the slope, one broken-down lift and a child who's fallen off the one working lift. There's no way that just two young members of staff can deal with that lot and carry on keeping an eye on those who are still skiing, but if they're able to call up help from indoors, that should alleviate matters.
I was wondering if there were any controls on the number of people who can be on the slope at any one time? It does at times seem alarmingly crowded and, with the best will in the world, that's going to be potentially dangerous. Yes, a real mountain also gets crowded, but that's because it's difficult to control numbers on a mountain side: it's less difficult in a fridge. It would be a shame to see Hemel becoming a victim of its own success, which it would become if people start to perceive it as a dangerous free-for-all.
[Edited to include manicpb's post for clarity.]
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, My first post here responded to the initial post that highlight the narrow state of the Hemel slope on Saturdays. I mentioned that I though we had seen the same situation last year. I did refer to CFe and incidents I've seen there.
Scotts dive in response accusing me of being 'ignorant' was rather silly, IMHO and could only be taken as a thinly veiled insult.
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| The word "ignorant" is an adjective describing a person in the state of being unaware and is often used as an insult. |
It was clear he was defending Hemel when there was really no need. Not to worry, it's not the first time that being a paying customer seems to disallow me of having any opinion! If I thought Hemel was at fault I would have clearly have said so.
So back to the original post and point of this thread. Is there going to be a restricted, or narrowed slope (as per the first image) when the Christmas Snowheads visit (Saturday 11th Dec) ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| BMF_Skier wrote: |
| So back to the original post and point of this thread. Is there going to be a restricted, or narrowed slope (as per the first image) when the Christmas Snowheads visit (Saturday 11th Dec) ? |
Not a question I can answer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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One of the key factors that the snow centres could all improve upon is information giving. I may be over-cynical, but might their reluctance to tell people in advance that the slope will be restricted be because they fear the truth could put people off going?
Friends of mine from Norwich were visiting relatives near Grimsby and decided to book some skiing at Castleford last winter. They are all competent. As it was a Saturday they decided they'd ring up and ensure that there wasn't anything special going on that'd make it extra busy. They were told there "should be no problem". On arriving they discovered an open-entry freestyle competition in progress on the main slope occupying at least 2/3rds of the slope. They skied a couple of runs each and left as they felt in danger from both the incompetent entrants trying to impress their mates and the mates who were heckling whilst skiing down the available section.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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BMF_Skier, you are alex heney and I claim my £5.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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but might their reluctance to tell people in advance that the slope will be restricted be because they fear the truth could put people off going?
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Butterfly, Nail hit on head I think. The thing is that a facility like a snow centre seems to want things all ways. If a ski club has booked part of the slope for night then they are clearly taking an income from that hire. The problem is then (I think) that the regular punters are still asked to cough up what they would usually pay for all the slope yet can only use half the slope (less if obstacles are also out on other areas). It's a bit like those 'tight wad' councils who state that parking tickets are non-transferrable. IMV if you have paid to park a car in a space for 3 hrs why should it matter which car is parked on that ticket - the space has been paid for. A snow centre should be no different, leaving aside issues of possible safety, if the snow centre is already getting paid by a ski club for half the slope, then it should be sufficient that other punters who are only getting half the slope to use should only pay half the costs. As a punter I would find that a better situation, I would resent paying for the full slope and then only getting to use half of it, BUT if the centres were willing to meet the punters half way, and advertise the fact that half the slope was closed AND therefore a REDUCED amount was payable for that evening that there would be less resentment. They might even find that they had a fair uptake for some cheaper skiing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| One of the key factors that the snow centres could all improve upon is information giving. I may be over-cynical, but might their reluctance to tell people in advance that the slope will be restricted be because they fear the truth could put people off going? |
Definitely. But as a paying customer, that is only natural. When you are paying for a service you expect to be getting it without compromise. Why would you pay full whack and expect otherwise?
It is a business, and it's primary objective is to make money. However, the Hemel management need to strike a balance between a good return AND still provide a quality service. I'm sure everyone understands that during the season compromises will need to be made to accommodate both individuals and clubs alike. But I don't find it acceptable for two thirds of the slope to sealed off at any one time (especially when one of these thirds is not even in use).
With as many people as there are at Hemel at the moment, there is bound to be a higher chance of collisions and what not. Adding a bottleneck into the equation (as like in the picture posted previously) is just a step too far.
I am thankful for Hemel, and appreciate the efforts of all the staff who do work there to keep it running. But I do think the management need to have a good rethink about about there current policies and make changes where necessary.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
I was wondering if there were any controls on the number of people who can be on the slope at any one time? |
Travelled to Chill Factore only to be told there was not enough room on the slope (even though it didn't look to bad) and I know Tamworth has a max capacity although it's rarely (if ever) met now-a-days, so I presume there is a 'full' capacity for each dome.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| BMF_Skier wrote: |
| So back to the original post and point of this thread. Is there going to be a restricted, or narrowed slope (as per the first image) when the Christmas Snowheads visit (Saturday 11th Dec) ? |
Not a question I can answer. |
why doesnt someone who is going or organising the event pick up the telephone and ask?
i dont get why SH's to expect a snowdome to not take any bookings for race training or freestyle on what had been a slow night for them just cause once a month a few SH's (currently 11) may or may not turn up???. I would guess that SASA who booked a lane in advance will have 20 or so skiers. With all the talk of refunds and restricted slope space one solution would be for SH's to book a lane and ensure "private" skiing for the event on your part of the slope. Or perhaps guarantee well in advance a certain number of users but on the proviso that there are no slope restrictions.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I can say that SASA are there on 11th December, including Beequins minor, as it is listed on their website http://www.skisasa.co.uk/training/indoor-training-at-hemel-snow-centre
But whether that justifies a reduced rate I could not say. The lane setup in the top pic is more than SASA used last time I went and there was then no freestyle sector either.
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I shall be in France on 11 December, but respectfully suggest that this might not be the best thread on which to discuss the specifics of that date anyway. It would be better to go to the event thread and ask Tall Tone, who is organising the event, anything you need to know: I'm sure he'll deal amiably with your questions, as he always does.
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FAQ
will get an unrestricted slope at the Dec meet?
