 Poster: A snowHead
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I have some Movement Gladiators, which are 90 underfoot twin tips 180cm long.
I'm wondering if there's much point in using these on the pistes?
I find them a bit sluggish sometimes in turns. Having said that, they plow through cruddy snow very well and built up snow when it hasn't been groomed.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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DennisPennis, I've the same skis, used them in VT for the EOSB, I'm a bit on the light side so struggled in very very icy conditions to get the edge grip but apart from that they wre fine
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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?
As a groomer only ski? Probably not.
As something for all conditions? Why not? Probably on the skinny side of versatile all mountain skis these days but that's a matter of personal choice and bias in one's skiing terrain.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Movement Gladiator is a very versatile ski.
Have a pair for Scotland. Used them almost every day last winter. Hold an edge on hard snow really well, no problems carving on piste.
Though like most skis at the stiffer end of the scale you need to put a little effort in.
Great ski - stick with them and you will be rewarded.
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good point by Haggis_Trap, the Gladiators are a pretty good all round ski as long as you push them, the turn radius is up around 25m so they need some effort to get the best out of them. If you keep your speed up they will really come into their own 
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I guess it's that I learnt to carve on 68 skis and the carving feeling is different on 90 underfoot.
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| DennisPennis wrote: |
| I guess it's that I learnt to carve on 68 skis and the carving feeling is different on 90 underfoot. |
It will feel different, and if you only ski on piste you're probably going to have more fun on skis which are designed for that. But as you use them in all snow conditions they are a more suitable ski than whatever 68mm wide skis you learned on. Unfortunately ski choice is all about making compromises if you have one pair for all types of terrain and snow.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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These are the ones I got for around 150euros 2 yrs ago (I had to get some bindings as well): http://www.ski-mag.com/en/ski/clanak.php?id=18627
That review talks about adjusting technique, is that just because the skis are wider so slightly wider stance for carving? I always found it difficult to keep skis close together with thin skis but with these, I can keep skis together for stability (the old instructor test of keeping the wooly hat held between the knees while turning )
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DennisPennis, I can't imagine any modern instructor would have you doing drills to keep your knees together.
As for different technique that review was clearly written by a non-native English speaker so its hard to derive exact meaning but if I had to guess I'd say its along the lines of Haggistrap's point above that they aren't simply park' n ride piste skis and have to be actively skied i.e. you can't just tip them on edge lazily and expect them to do all the work as some piste cruisers allow.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| fatbob wrote: |
DennisPennis, I can't imagine any modern instructor would have you doing drills to keep your knees together.
As for different technique that review was clearly written by a non-native English speaker so its hard to derive exact meaning but if I had to guess I'd say its along the lines of Haggistrap's point above that they aren't simply park' n ride piste skis and have to be actively skied i.e. you can't just tip them on edge lazily and expect them to do all the work as some piste cruisers allow. |
Dunno, when I learnt carving, that's what they got me to do and off piste a couple of years ago, I was being told to keep my skis together for stability.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Don't listern to this lot, they will be completely hopeless.
How much do you want for them?
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DennisPennis, Where? How old was the instructor? Leaning one ski on the other isn't really a recipe for stability. Can help to manage divergence in soft snow of course but that's different.
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You know it makes sense.
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That's the problem then, skis too close together, not getting wider skis on edge enough, not enough grip on piste.
Warning - someone more qualified will be along shortly
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Colin B wrote: |
That's the problem then, skis too close together, not getting wider skis on edge enough, not enough grip on piste.
Warning - someone more qualified will be along shortly |
I can carve on them, it's just a wider turn.
But why would they teach skis close together off piste.
The instructor was actually fairly young (30s), said it was easier to be stable when the skis were close together - that was on the 72s mind...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| DennisPennis wrote: |
| The instructor was actually fairly young (30s), said it was easier to be stable when the skis were close together |
He was wrong. A wider stance is more stable. A narrow stance allows you to be more agile, as well as bringing benefits in deep snow..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It won't be the width that's a problem - I have some skis which are 90mm wide but they're for little old ladies (Line Celebrity) and not stiff - so maybe it's more the stiffness which is the challenge. I do find the Celebritys are a pain on very hard icy pistes, but not otherwise (though usually I use narrower skis as I ski mainly on piste). But trying to ski with your feet close together might be the biggest problem. I don't think anyone has taught that for at least 15 years? If you can hold a bobble hat between your knees on 90mm planks you must have some impressive A framing and/or knock knees.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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90 is the new 70 the way skis are cut today. 90 is fine for pistes
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| pam w wrote: |
| It won't be the width that's a problem - I have some skis which are 90mm wide but they're for little old ladies (Line Celebrity) and not stiff - so maybe it's more the stiffness which is the challenge. I do find the Celebritys are a pain on very hard icy pistes, but not otherwise (though usually I use narrower skis as I ski mainly on piste). But trying to ski with your feet close together might be the biggest problem. I don't think anyone has taught that for at least 15 years? If you can hold a bobble hat between your knees on 90mm planks you must have some impressive A framing and/or knock knees. |
I thin that's probably the issue, most of the instruction has been when I was on 68 skis.
The hat in between the knees was to help keep the skis together.
Might just be coincidence but that was an Italian instructor, the other was Austrian and younger and both said it was better.
When I say skis together, I don;t mean how you see people turning down the slopes with skis together, not that type of turning, I just mean to hold the skis close together...during the turn, they are wider apart for the carve balance.
rob
A narrow stance allows you to be more agile, as well as bringing benefits in deep snow..
How so?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| DennisPennis wrote: |
| Colin B wrote: |
That's the problem then, skis too close together, not getting wider skis on edge enough, not enough grip on piste.
Warning - someone more qualified will be along shortly |
I can carve on them, it's just a wider turn.
But why would they teach skis close together off piste.
The instructor was actually fairly young (30s), said it was easier to be stable when the skis were close together - that was on the 72s mind... |
In deep soft snow having skis together makes it less likely that one will be 'held up' by snow of a different consistency without the other - so the skis do the same thing. Nothing to do with stability though. For carving you don't want your feet close together, they hsould be around hip width apart. Otherwise you're gonna have to weirdly contort your legs to get the skis on a proper edge. Feet together does work in short radius pivot turns, but is generally considered a wee bit old school these days. It sounds like your problem is technique rather than the skis tbh.
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DennisPennis, I'm sure Rob will be able to explain it better, but for me having a narrower stance in powder means that the skis don't both disappear in different directions. I'm sure it can all be explained with physics, but if your skis are 5" apart in powder they move "as one" - keep them a foot apart and one will be going up the hill and the other towards Switzerland when you try and turn!  Try it and see - you'll feel what I mean!
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| DennisPennis wrote: |
| How so? |
As Alexandra and others have said, a narrow stance helps in deep powder because it is easier to manage your feet with equal pressure (so one doesn't dive into the snow while the other one stays high) as well as being a bit easier to create a "platform" to ski on, especially at the end of the turn.
As for stability v. agility try this: stand up and ask a friend or colleague to stand to your side. Ask them to try to pull you over as powerfully as possible. Note what you do with your feet. Do you open them up into a wide stance or do you jam your ankles together...
Here's a clue.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
As Alexandra and others have said, a narrow stance helps in deep powder because it is easier to manage your feet with equal pressure (so one doesn't dive into the snow while the other one stays high) as well as being a bit easier to create a "platform" to ski on, especially at the end of the turn.
As for stability v. agility try this: stand up and ask a friend or colleague to stand to your side. Ask them to try to pull you over as powerfully as possible. Note what you do with your feet. Do you open them up into a wide stance or do you jam your ankles together...
Here's a clue. |
So, dilemna (kind off off topic )
Skis together off piste to stop them moving different ways but when you turn you move them apart - doesn't that allow for heavy snow to catch them and move them further apart? In fact carving off piste isn;t exactly easy so it's more of a skid turn...
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 12-11-10 15:18; edited 1 time in total
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| fatbob wrote: |
As for different technique that review was clearly written by a non-native English speaker so its hard to derive exact meaning |
Not talking about that review but I've noticed more and more review sites where the review is clearly written by an Indian sitting with a press release or catalogue open on one screen and writing whatever blether comes into his head on another. I guess someone has put a job on the Mechanical Turk to write 100 ski reviews for a new ski website.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| DennisPennis wrote: |
So, dilemna (kind off off topic )
Skis together off piste to stop them moving different ways but when you turn you move them apart - doesn't that allow for heavy snow to catch them and move them further apart? In fact carving off piste isn;t exactly easy so it's more of a skid turn... |
Not off topic at all. It's a compromise - if you're making fast, open turns off piste you will have different forces affecting you than if you're making little Powder 8s, so you might well open your stance a bit to allow you to balance better. A good skier is an adaptable skier, who can change lots of things about their skiing depending on the conditions and how they choose to ski them. In this case it means being able to ski with a wide stance when necessary and a narrow stance when necessary.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Always satisfying using twin tips and spraying snow behind you everywhere
For the most part aren;t twin tips just the domain of tricksters though?
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I just thought I'd chuck in my feeble ramblings on off-piste stance as I found the above comments very interesting. Sorry if its not strictly on topic.
I too was told by instructor to keep feet and knees together off-piste. All as said above but also to maintain even pressure on both skis during the turn. Most intermediates favour the outer ski on a turn, on piste that isn't usually a problem as the inner ski can be skidded or just dragged around. To illustrate this try one footed turns (on piste), on the outer ski its a doddle...on the inner ski its a whole different ballgame.
Off-piste, favouring the outer ski causes all sorts of problems. If your inner ski is well below the surface or running through crud its not so easy to skid or bully around the turn so the two skis will try to turn on different radii (spelling?) usually resulting in a tangle of legs and massive face plant at the end of the turn. Keeping your feet and knees together seems to help to equalise the pressure between the skis.
As your off-piste technique improves you can widen your stance, I seem to be stuck in the narrow stance but it works for me, I just have to keep reminding myself to widen up again when I get back on piste.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Most intermediates favour the outer ski on a turn, on piste that isn't usually a problem
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On piste you SHOULD weight/pressure the outside ski more than the inner.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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DennisPennis, you'll be fine. I had the same concerns with my new Missions last season (89 underfoot), and was charging around pistes like the normal hooligan I am.
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Poster: A snowHead
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clarky999,
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On piste you SHOULD weight/pressure the outside ski more than the inner.
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I'm confused? Are you saying it is therefore also advisable to pressure the outer ski more off-piste too?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Dorset Andy, pretty much. Very rarely should your weight be totally equal. In deep deep powder, you still want to be maybe 60:40 or 55:45...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Are you saying it is therefore also advisable to pressure the outer ski more off-piste too?
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No, as Rob said, the reason you need a wide stance on piste is to help with stability, pressurising the outer ski will help create a platform for you to resist the centrifugal forces pulling you out. Repeat the test from earlier, ie get a friend to pull you sideways and see how much weight you place on you "outer" foot, and you'll find you dig in your outer foot to help you resist the forces pulling you sideways....thus creating a platform. In deep snow the ski is surrounded by deep and fragile snow and therefore creats its own natural platform as you go through the turn, you pressurising the skis even more will create a massive platform thus resulting in what we call a "yard sale"  in fact you don't need to actively apply pressure at all when skiing in powder (I presume this is what you meant by "off piste"??), you just need to manage the centrifugal force using flex and more evenly spread your weight over each ski to stop one diving deeper than the other.
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the_doc, so...we disagree?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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simples
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no, I'm not saying totally equal, 60:40 or so is what I'd work to, difficult to quantify though.
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DennisPennis, great ski, sadly no more. I've had two pairs, one for touring, one for blasting around lift-served/sidecountry etc, they've been my everyday ski for a few years now, and while it's nice to spin about on piste on a GS type ski, the versatility of the glads make them a much better everyday ski imo. Have converted one set to telemark (with inserts baby!!) for the coming season (and am actually considering buying a pair that I've found online - new but hanging around the suppliers for a while - sorely tempted as they aint making them anymore)
As others have said, up your speed on piste and you'll be surprised how easy you can tip them over onto an edge. Also as others have said, they're pretty stiff so might make them a handful if you typically keep away from the pies & pints (like i said, they're pretty much my perfect ski!!). If you're wanting mixed use then they're spot on but if you just wanna carve around the pistes all day exclusively (nowt wrong with that), then maybe not the best
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the_doc, ah, good. yep, difficult to describe. You need to have a good feel for the snow, no?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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exactly....smell your way down the hill 
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| Dorset Andy wrote: |
clarky999,
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On piste you SHOULD weight/pressure the outside ski more than the inner.
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I'm confused? Are you saying it is therefore also advisable to pressure the outer ski more off-piste too? |
In powder (which I assume is what you're talking about re offpiste?) you should pressure both skis more equally, but still slightly more on the outside ski. I commented mainly 'cos it seemed like you were saying pressuring the outside ski ONpiste was a bad thing.
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