Skiing "Levels"

A snowHead

I know this discussion has already been done but I am in the process of a major web update and we are trying to group our clinics by "level" as that seems to be what most customers expect...

this is our current scale, it is more detailed than most schools as we have terrain constraints indoors at the snow centre and teach complete beginner as well as some professional development courses for quite good skiers.

any comments glady received...

=====

Each ski school has its own interpretation of "levels", here is what we use when trying to put people into the correct groups both Inside and Out.

1 First Timer. I have never put skis on before. In this group we will introduce you to your ski equipment, get you comfortable on snow and have you going up and down the lower section of the lesson slope at the Snow Centre first in a straight glide and then making some gentle turns and being able to stop under control.

2 Early Learner - I can sometimes make left and right ‘snowplough’ turns on the lesson slope. You may not always be in control and at this level we will start making turns of different shapes and speeds. You will be able to come to a stop, in control, from half way up the lesson slope by the end of this level. You will be able to use the rope tow unassisted getting off safely.

3 Learner - I can link many snowplough turns, changing direction, turn shape and speed comfortably. We will make turns from the top of the lesson slope and show you how to use the poma lift on the main slope. You will start to influence the shape of your turns by actively flexing and extending your joints. You will ski on the main slope under supervision, and will make controlled plough turns higher up than we had been on the lesson slope. We will show you how to use ski poles. Our goal is to get you to recreational standard.

4 Early Improver - We have signed you off at Recreational Standard and you can practice skiing the main slope on your own and in control while making turns from top to bottom. You are comfortable using the Poma lift un assisted and always ski safely on the main slope. We will start to let the skis go into a parallel shape when traveling across the slope and vary your speed always under control.

Here is where “levels” get a bit tricky…. Especially if we haven't seen you ski. Try to be honest in your assessment. When we are coaching Inside your level is not that important as we can work with a wide range of ability levels easily during the same session. It is more important for us to harmonise groups by ability when skiing Outside due to the longer runs and selection of terrain.
___________________________________________________________
What You think about your skiing, and, What We see!
___________________________________________________________

5 Improver - I ski confidently on blue runs, green runs are fun and easy. My skis are parallel when I feel confident, but the plough comes back when it gets steep, narrow or icy. I struggle on reds, and probably haven’t tried moguls, or black runs.

Your ‘snowplough’ is noticeably smaller and you are able to finish turns with your skis in a parallel position. You may have done a week’s skiing, had some lessons and progressed quite rapidly. Or you may have done a few weeks skiing and can now parallel comfortably, without any ploughing, down a blue run. The plough comes back when conditions get tricky although it does not stop you getting around the mountain. You can easily change your direction and slow down as required. You look reasonably comfortable on the main slope at The Snow Centre.

6 Early Intermediate - I can ski most red runs when the conditions are good. I like going fairly fast, but struggle when it gets bumpy, steeper, icy, or the snow gets deep.

You have probably done more than a few weeks skiing. You can always parallel on blues and almost always on reds, going fast on reds unless the conditions are difficult. You can easily get around the mountain but your technique could be better. You may have tried moguls, black runs and the un-pisted terrain at the side of the slope, but you struggled. The main slope at The Snow Centre is easy for you but we will be looking to challenge you. We will work on developing your skills by getting you able to turn by either twisting, edging or pressuring the skis and then combine these skills in different ways to tackle different terrain and conditions.

7 Intermediate - I can ski all reds and get down most blacks as well, providing they're not too steep or bumpy.

You are now able to link confident parallel turns on blues and reds and are comfortable skiing on most black runs. Steeper and icy slopes may cause you to lose a little of your style, but you are still able to get to the bottom in one piece. You have now started to get the feeling of ‘carving’ your turns and this has brought a whole new dimension to your skiing. You are happy on-piste but would like to ski on other slopes, including off-piste, bumps fields and other variable conditions. The main slope at The Snow Centre is a training ground for you and you probably would get bored just skiing up and down there. We will work on fine tuning skills to make you an all-round advanced skier so that you can confidently tackle different terrain and conditions.

8 Early Advanced - I ski all the pisted runs on the mountain with a good degree of technique and style. I am comfortable on all pistes and seek out steeps, moguls and chopped up snow as a fun challenge, I have tried skiing off-piste but am only beginning to get to grips with it.

You can carve clean tracks on blue runs when the conditions are good with only a little skidding. You probably have skied for several years and have 10 weeks or more of experience and may have done clinics or advanced group lessons. You are keen to get better on icy pistes and in variable conditions. Your progress may be hampered by a lack of technique, fitness or confidence. You may be reliant on pushing your heels or picking up the inside ski to initiate your turns. When you think you are carving you may not be actively piloting the skis. You may be thinking of taking an Level 1 Instructor course.

9 Advanced - I can ski most places that are serviced by the lifts. I am a confident experienced skier and like to go fast on reds, blacks are no problem and I enjoy easy off-piste slopes.

You have probably skied more than 16 weeks and have taken numerous lessons. Off-piste is no longer a struggle, and you really have the feel for carving turns of all sizes on all pistes and enjoy the thrill that it gives you. You are able to carve effectively from turn to turn on nicely groomed snow but are not so consistent when the snow is icy or un-groomed. You can get down steeps, moguls and freeride terrain with confidence and a semi-consistent technique but will lose some control in the more difficult areas. You are probably able to, or have, passed an L1 instructor course. You can make changes to your skiing when asked, you can perform drills that demonstrate control of pressure, edge and rotation. You can balance and ski okay on one ski and can make rhythmical short or long radius turns.

10 Early Expert – I am a life long skier and wish I could ski more often.

You can ski all terrain comfortably but are perhaps limited in speed and confidence in some areas. To improve you will need greater dynamics, practice on steeper fall line moguls with an increased range of absorption and extension, make higher speed GS freeride turns in powder/ variable snow conditions and generally master a solid technique. You are probably interested in race training, steep couloirs, instructor exam technical requirements, freeride performance and higher speeds on piste. If you teach you are at, or training for, L2 exams and perhaps are getting ready for ISIA level.

11 Experts - I ski lots during the season and am competent in most areas.

Forgotten how many weeks you have skied. All terrains and speed are done competently. You can adjust turns through subtle changes in range, rate, duration and distribution of inputs. You are testing yourself by trying out snowboarding, telemarking or touring. You are humble and know that there is loads more to learn and can feel subtle differences between skis and how they are tuned. Equipment doesn’t make a big difference to your performance and you can ski slalom skis in deep snow or fat skis on piste. Instructors may be at L3 level and perhaps training for ISTD technical exams and the Euro Speed Test. You are getting close to being able to ski well whatever the conditions confidently and with ease.

12 Athletes / Full Cert Instructors & Coaches - I am a fluid skier with a unique style.

You most likely make a living from skiing or ski most days, exploring different styles and forms of snowsport. You may have have competed in free style, National championships or FIS level Alpine racing competitions. If you teach you are in the top few % of your governing body and probably train other instructors. You are an inspirational skier.

13 World Class Skiers

If you are this good you wouldn't be looking at our website !!

A snowHead

Doesn't work for me. There are two levels that seem to describe my skiing, and the ones either side of those are about half true. I suspect the fine grading only works by observation of a tutored eye.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Warning: this discussion could get ugly! I'm sure there's two or three "entertaining" threads about ability scales. Tin hat at the ready...

You need to Login to know who's really who.

No consideration of the "bag of spanners"tm positioniser therefore a fail.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

You'll need to Register first of course.

That's probably one of the better "level" ratings that I've seen - seems better balanced and more realistic in terms of where people are likely to be as they gain experience/have more lessons. The only area where that doesn't seem quite right is between Advanced and Early Expert. That said, it would be impossible to catch every possible stage within a particular rating.

For example, I'd rate myself as 9 on that scale, but there are one or two elements of 11 which I am OK with....but, I'm really not great off-piste (yet), although I can manage easier stuff within sight of pistes, I guess.. I'm not a life long skier, so 10 isn't right either.

Overall, great effort IMHO snowHead

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I think the number of weeks detracts from it, you can ski for ever and still suck or be not bad in a week or two.

After all it is free

Try starting at 10, a Professional Skier and working back to first timer at 1, plenty of scope and very humbling.

I'm an 8

. Even though I don't lift inner ski or push heels.

But nice scale wink

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

not sure what experimenting with snowboarding and telemarking has to do with skiing ability

snow reports

You know it makes sense.

This is really detailed and I can see it working as a means to categorise skiers assuming you already know what you are talking about. I would think about removing:

i) any references to how people look when they are skiing - most people won't be aware of this unless they have had vid analyis
ii) any references to technique flaws that people may not realise they have e.g. chunks of description 8.

I'd think about including:

i) terrain people seek out when they are skiing, not just terrain they can ski
ii) things that can be self assessed e.g. style of turn people can employ and like to employ

I'd also put a point in up front that these are not always going to be an exact fit. I'm a 9 on some days and a 10 on others depending on whether or not I'm hungover. I'm probably an 8 in bumps on a bad day and an 11 on the internet.

I think these points matter less at the upper end of the scale than the bottom. After 20 years skiing, I'm a little more comfortable self assessing but it has taken a while to get there.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

This is an interesting scale/criteria grading. Personally, I think I would struggle to place myself somewhere precisely using this criteria as there are bits of some levels I can fulfill and bits of others I can't. But I guess most people can use the guide to approximate where they are.

Is the jump from 9 to 10 a bit too big? I would have thought the gaps between the levels would begin to narrow somewhat the higher the criteria you went.

Anyhow, pretty good overall!

A snowHead

in our scale, an instructor hits 7, working back from there puts and expert at 5 expodentially, i'm no ski teacher and like the fact there are plenty of details to hit at demonstrates a good understanding of the subject, but needs a little tweaking

A snowHead

I would put myself at 10 - however, as someone else has said the "ski on one ski" thing in level 9 would trip me up (badoom tish!) - I've only done it through necessity (tore a binding) and it wasn't a pretty sight! wink

On the whole though - good grading system!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

rob@rar, fair enough... I like the gradings generally and I guess you've focussed them towards people who take classes in the UK and so will be more familiar with drills than I am.

That said, having read gorillas post I agree with his point about things to remove, especially (ii)

You need to Login to know who's really who.

When you say balance on one ski, do you mean being able to make an inside and outside edge turn on the same ski?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I don't like level 5: Improver much. Firstly it reads a little awkwardly 'You may have done a week's skiing' then 'You may
have done a few weeks skiing'. Also there seems to be too big a gap between 'skiing confidently on blue runs' and 'struggle on reds'. I noticed this when discussing levels with a friend who was thinking of signing up for one of the Improver Clinics.

Here is my suggested version:-

5 Improver - I ski confidently on blue runs, green runs are fun and easy. My skis are parallel when I feel confident, but the plough comes back when it gets steep, narrow or icy. I ski reds sometimes, but struggle when the runs get steep or bumpy. I probably haven’t tried moguls, or black runs.

Your ‘snowplough’ is noticeably smaller and you are able to finish turns with your skis in a parallel position. You may have done several weeks skiing, and can now parallel comfortably, without any ploughing, down a blue run. The plough comes back when conditions get tricky although it does not stop you getting around the mountain. You can easily change your direction and slow down as required. You look reasonably comfortable on the main slope at The Snow Centre.

You'll need to Register first of course.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Lots to think about chappies , thanks for all the good comments and suggestions. any more keep em coming!!

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

At the upper end should there be some mention of snow type? I remember a group I skied with once and on nice powder we all seemed to ski much the same - the SCGB party leader even asked me if he should class the 4 others as Gold. However when the snow deteriorated and there was very heavy snow they really started to struggle and when it came to breakable crust they could hardly ski it at all and only the two of us skied it fairly fluently and fast (though not very elegantly).

However, since I have never liked bumps and tend not to chose to ski them (and guides tend to do the same, though perhaps for different reasons) I know my bump skiing is not up to the standard of my other skiing.

snowHeads are a friendly bunch.

Sorry gents but your scale is too narrow and lacks definition. It also only caters for the small percentage of skiers that start as 'learner' and actually improve over time.

For the rest of us the definitive grading system has already been established by Messrs Axsman and Horizon. I refer of course to this thread:

http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=44563

For example where exactly on your scales would I fit? you don't include Gonk, Weeble or Standard British Incompetent Skier

snow reports

Axsman, we tried to merge our levels with the BOS Levels™ but it broke our computer. Sorry!

13 World Class Skiers

If you are this good you wouldn't be looking at our website !!

Hehe, thats me, Wink

You know it makes sense.

But anybody at those top levels should surely be able to ski on one leg if asked to - and on both edges, for that matter. I can do that a bit (on a good day and an easy slope) and wouldn't put myself anywhere near a level 10. We were doing a very wobbly practice of that one day, on a very easy slope, and our son watched in curiosity and asked whatever we were up to. We told him, and he just did it. No problem, both edges on either leg. Took him about an hour to perfect it to a far higher standard than I can manage. Came in handy when he smashed a ski on the Grand Motte a couple of weeks later and had to ski down on the remaining one (swapping legs now and then). It had never occurred to him to do it before, but he's one of those guys who skis well just because of spending time with really good skiers, and natural ability. He'd never done that "drill" because he's had no lessons since he was 9 but he'd spent plenty of time having to recover his balance in all kinds of situations (which is the point of the drill, after all) and his balance and edging skills were good. Very annoying too, when I'd spent ages playing around with that (and can still only do it properly on the left leg).

Maybe some people have reached a high level in terms of some of those criteria - happy bombing down anything - but lack certain "building block" skills which a clinic would help them master. Being able to balance fairly consistently on the outside ski - javlin turns etc - I'd put that at about level 7.

Given the limitations of an indoor slope (no blacks, steep couloirs, moguls or deep snow for all these expert folk) you could give a clearer idea of the focus of lessons at the different levels, such as "we will spend time ensuring you are able to ski with all your weight on your outside ski throughout a variety of turn shapes" or "we will focus on improving your balance and edging skills by using drills which require you to put all your weight on the inside ski when turning"

For me, having an idea of the kind of exercise which will be done in a lesson (and in a dome it's all exercises, after all - you can't bomb around laying down nice lines for people to follow) would be the best way of ensuring I picked the right level for what I am after.

I agree that the number of "weeks" is not always helpful - some people have skied for super mega weeks and can't do some of that stuff. Embarassed

Might be better to say "most people don't reach this level until they have skied at least X weeks and had quite a lot of lessons".

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Before reading the "What we see" I classed myself as a 7 but I also think I do have some elements of 8. I like the what we see bit, much more imaginative. I don't like the reference to number of weeks skiing (in any grading system), IME that bears no relation to how well, or badly, one skis - e,g, in level 9 "You have probably skied more than 16 weeks and have taken numerous lessons" - that'll be me then Laughing

edit: wot Pam said re the number of weeks

A snowHead

Or.......

Let people grade themselves from a limited number of options and then, after the first lesson, the instructors will give them the correct grade and move them (or not) into the most appropriate class.
eg.
See Here

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Wayne, as i mentioned above indoors we dont get people for a week and outdoors dont have enough groups running to harmonize easily as your system or the ESF that i mentioned. we have quite a range of clients....

You need to Login to know who's really who.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

It's probably the most comprehensive scale I've ever read. I realise it's impossible to categorise everyone and a certain degree of generalisation will ensue, but that seems to cover most bases.

Optimistically I think i'm somewhere around 7 or 8 on that list.

You'll need to Register first of course.

My own thought s are 1) is there any use in having so many levels? Unless you are a very large ski school you are having to group together people at several different levels. 2) If you are trying to get away from peoples pre conceived ideas about what they might be by using descrption why have a number and an adjective as numbers will coincide with numbers in other ski schools/scales and adjectives mean things to people that maybe different from the description, Intermediate/advanced/ beginner etc. Why not have letters and stick to a few levels rather than so many.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

8 on skis, 10 on a snowboard! Hopefully pushing the levels up from Decemeber 19th!

After all it is free

I think I've said in on SH's before but I find Inside-Out's scale to be the best I've looked at (and I've seen a few now) it is the only one in which I can squarely put myself in one grade - for me I'm sure its a 6. It will be interesting to see they agree with me when I go for a day in a few weeks time.

skimottaret, Would it help to have some video of the type of drills people would be doing in the different coaching clinics, maybe linked to video or description of the type of 'outside' skiing these drills are aiming to improve/achieve? I know I have seen one ski school that had videos of outside skiing related to levels and it can sometimes be easier to compare your perception of your level with something visual.

I do think your existing scale is quite good, but where I put myself on it depends on how I am feeling about my skiing at the time Laughing

Luckily, you're already familiar with my skiing (inside).

*Ski* the Net with snowHeads

I have to say even I found this interesting and as Rob knows I am not into grading and all that jazz, just like to get out there and ride the powder when we can find it. As someone, think it was arno said, not sure what trying out snowboarding etc has to do with it. I do both and have tried most kinds of snowsports. Some I can do well others, yuk I just gave them up. Also some interesting terms you use which not having had a lesson ever indoors and only off piste or racing outside, not sure what these drills are. Guess I will ask the kids as they will know.

Altogether, I think it is quite a good scale. If you take out the technical terms for exercises and put in a simple description so people can say, yes or no if they can do that, plus take out the trying other types of snowsports bit. Then yes, I could see this working quite well. But it does need to be simple questions which anyone can understand and tick a box, yes or no can or cannot do that kind of thing. Hope that helps.

Help!!

Skiing "Levels"

snowHeads Forum Index >>> The Piste