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Do snowboards, boots & bindings follow aspiration more than practicality?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Does anyone find that the equipment for sale and in use is sometimes more a case of what people aspire to rather than what is most useful and appropriate?

Do people buy snowboards designed for acrobatics in the fun park or half-pipe and then spend 99% of their time on the piste?

Are step-in bindings a thing of the past because pro competitors and racers needed or preferred otherwise? Even though it seems step-ins may be more convenient for most people.

Are we stuck with no more than very stiff soft-boots because it's just 'not cool' to have hard boots on a board even if they're great for carving?

Baggy clothes are de rigeur - no salopettes or fart-bags for boarders!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Step-ins had their merits but also fundamental design flaws and other consequences: no universal standards/hostage to certain manufacturers, clusky boots, prone to icing or failure of components, no get you home option (which you always have with duct tape and a strap binding) etc

I've hard booted and still have a race board - It's not easy and will spank your arris very quickly so has limited appeal.

Most boards sold in the UK are undersized for general freerding IMO which I take as fashion over function.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Never tried step-ins but ride with those who used to and now no longer do - they just got fed up with the faff of them - having to clear a normal binding of snow and ice is one thing, trying to do the same of the latch bar on your boot without a ski-pole was a PITA. (for those who don't know, the arrangement i'm talking about was the board had 2 catches either side of a special boot which had 2 bars cast into the the sole you stamped down and the latches would lock onto the bars) yes they're quick if they work. Plus with the more limited selection of boots available, it can be difficult to find something if you're feet are outside the 'normal' range (one of my friends has size 1.5 to 2 feet). Flow bindings are available for people who want the 'convenience' of step ins without the problems of finding a specific boot to mate with the mechanism.

Agree with fatbob, in the sense that the current kit set most people use (soft boots, ratchet bindings and a general purpose board) has improved accessability of the sport, which is a good thing.
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fatbob, I've not yet enjoyed a failure with either my Fritschi hard boot step-in bindings or my Shimano/Clicker soft-boot step-in bindings. Ok, it's pretty tricky mounting up in a powder field (after you've had to dismount to rescue a fallen skier), but I've enjoyed ten years of luxury. Nothing like scooting off down a road and stepping-in when it looks like no more scooting is needed. The biggest problem is that they don't make 'em any more. At least the Fritschi bindings work with any hard boot tho (I have Deeluxe).

Hard booters don't have to race. They can just cruise & carve (conditions permitting).

Boards undersized? Is that because it makes them more forgiving to beginners (a bit like short skis) or because the low spin weight is ideal for tricks and the fashion is to be ready for tricks at any time?

A shorter board ain't so hot for speed or carving tho - maybe that's why I don't see that many fast boarders.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
First hol (so still a begginer) I used hard boots and from memory they were very responsive edge to edge, however very easy to change an edge when I did'nt want to and thus spat me on my face or a*se! They still have there place though (*prob in the bin* wink Joking!!)!

Although I've never tried I doubt you can set hard boots up for duck stance which is why a lot of boarders ride, to switch from one way to another while bouncing off the nose and tail and jib till the sun goes down.

Also had a couple of season in Burton step-ins and just never had confidence that they would not explode open if I (unstylishly) stomped a landing or even release on a chairlift (which they never did but was always in the back of my mind) and they clogged terrible in powder!
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Richard_Sideways, I've seen that step-in with the bolts either side. Never did look that good to me (with my engineer's hat on). I've always wondered how people got on with it in practice. Sounds like the footbed had to have zero snow on it for the bolts to align/latch.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
crosbie, indeed, easy to foul the latch or get compacted snow stuck between the boot and bolt so the latch would LOOK closed but only be locked on one side. How do your step-ins operate (assumed it was a similar mechanism) and whats the release like?

I know step-ins are still commonplace in snowboard-downhill racing but I can also see why you wouldn't want to leave the ground, as that heavy landing could disengage the lock and leave you flailing. As for riding switch,
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
manicpb, soft to hard boots is a bit like BMX to racing bike. Hard boots on an alpine board give you stability and security at speed, rapid edge-to-edge, and incredible cornering/braking power.

You could get some of the more relaxed hard boots and a crossover twin-tip, but even then I think it would be more 45/15 to 20/0 than 15/-15 duck.
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Richard_Sideways, the Shimano/K2 Clicker is a 2 point, central pair of 'heel to ball' hooks (Clicker boots have the special sole plate, but can be used in normal bindings). The fixed front hook engages first, and then the rear hook latches when the heel of the boot is pressed home. And yes, snow/ice often compacts on the boot under the rear hook. So, one tends to have to give each boot a quick scrape prior to entry. Negligible seconds of preamble - unless the boot&binding heel area is caked with snow & ice too. Suffice it to say the rare clogging problems are few and far between, and are still relatively quickly dealt with. The bindings do not disengage without lifting a latch (which itself has a semi-locked position). Frankly, I'd snap these up if you find them on eBay, etc. I'm still looking for size 10 K2 Firebird boots (just in case mine get lost).
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crosbie, love your posts.

I still use stepins most of the time. When taking people around that are learning having stepins make my life so much easier. And yes, i think they only stopped making them because they do not fit the image.

Really you need three boards, one for parks, one for powder and one for pistes plus even an extra one for all round. Guess I am just lucky to have my choice depending on what I am doing although my slalom board does not get used much these days.

As for clothing, as anyone that knows me will tell you, I do not care what i wear, I like to be warm Toofy Grin
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crosbie, have had a bit of a google about looking at the step ins on offer these days. Everything seems very geared to the dedicated carver and extreme steeps communities, makes sense for that style of riding too - but can't see it making too much headway outside the more niche areas of boarding.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
snowcrazy, Yep, maybe one day I might get a park board. Skullie Even two cause problems for transatlantic trips (can't yet drive across), so 3 would be expensive. I did once take a 3rd board - a crud board for poor conditions.

Richard_Sideways, Between the poles of park and speed, there is piste cruising - not so much a niche, but a big middle zone where families & friends ski the distance on pistes of all colours. 'All mountain' boards with firm soft boots (or relaxed hard boots) would seem to be ideal, along with step-ins. The dismount from chair-lift to piste-readiness takes 0 seconds for skiers, and about 5 seconds for a board step-in. That said, it's amazing how many skiers stand around dawdling as well as rows of sat boarders just off a chair exit. rolling eyes

However, being practical doesn't sell step-ins. They have to be used by pros in the fashionable competitive end of the sport - not by amateurs in the mundane leisure end.

Similarly, mountain bikes that are comfortable for the average hilltop cruiser have to give way to bikes apparently designed for super fit & fast competitors (racing posture, etc.).
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
crosbie, I can see where you're coming from on this one - technically a hard boot/step in would be 'best' for piste cruising, but the perception of it is that it's the realm of the super hard charging speedster, for experts in their field only. This may or may not be a misconception (can't comment, never tried it) but with nobody out there championing the cause for step-ins then it's hardly surprising they've disappeared from view, whatever their benefits or drawbacks may be - and the further away from 'normal' boarding it gets, the more niche it is percieved, if you type "Hardboot snowboard" into google, the first results you get all relate to carving, racing, and alpine... except for the one "What happened to Hard Boot Snowboarding?"...
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Richard_Sideways, urgh no. after watching my husband struggle to learn to ride in hard boots with step in bindings, and get so much better on his second day when they'd found him soft boots where he could use ratchet bindings, i am definitely in the "i'll go with soft boots and ratchet bindings please" camp.

i think you go with the techniques and hardwear you learnt with initially, then go from there. if you test hard boots after learning on soft boots, you may change your mind and start doing the hard boot thing. but i don't think many people will change over. it's a comfort thing for most people.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Richard_Sideways, yup "Hard boots are for racers at 60/70 angles" and "Step-ins are for hard boots" and "Piste cruising is boring/tiring for boarders".

A couple of years ago I had to rent a conventional soft boot/board set up and it was a dire experience given I was following piste skiers rather than messing about in a park. Thank god it was snowing heavily at the time - it would have been terrible on hard pack.

Folk are missing out on the limousine of snowboarding: the all-mountain board, carve/piste/powder/park*, wide enough for low angles, soft boots firm enough for carving, and step-ins to keep up with skiers. * Have to forego the more acrobatic tricks in the park though.

What is needed is a new competitive snow boarding event that favours such equipment -The Boarder-Marathon. How about non-stop (bar lifts) between each of the four corners of the Trois Vallees piste map, with the only food/drink allowed being that which one can carry - TWICE (clockwise, then anti-clockwise). I did it just the once a couple of years ago, but with a nice lunch at St. Martin de Belleville.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
sherlock235, yup, I definitely wouldn't recommend learning in hard boots. Though I didn't find it that difficult, I've seen how badly others cope with a lack of ankle flexion (even standing up becomes a major achievement).

I'd certainly recommend any boarder who's dabbling with carving or finding speed more stressful than pleasurable, to try a hard boot setup. Important that the boots are comfortable and relaxed (not vicelike for racing) and at familiar angles on a wide alpine board.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
crosbie, You could call it "The Iron Boots Challange" wink

Did you really have that bad an experience with softies? I've ridden with skiers for many years and never found the process any more tiring on hardpack than on any other surface. Again, as i said i've never tried hard boots (the only time i've ever even worn ski boots was for a morning on snow-bikes, which i'd rather forget about if it's all the same to you) so i've got no comparison - but i've never found soft boots either a compromise or an issue from either comfort, stamina or performance. Like sherlock235 said i reckon you mostly stick with what you learned on unless you've got a real reason to change, maybe i'll have to hire a setup one day... Are day-glo fartbags de rigueur, or perhaps a lycra onsie wink
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Richard_Sideways, I use firm/soft boots about as much as hard boots (I even went for a couple of seasons without hard boots). I prefer firm/soft boots for longboard on fresh/powder and hard boots for alpine board on hard pack/piste.

I did however have that bad an experience with soft softies - like boarding in slippers I found it. It made edging far more of an effort than usual. I guess I've been spoilt. Little Angel

"Iron Boots Challenge" yup, I like it. snowHead

All you need are four marshalls handing out tokens and noting names & times and you're set. Folk can start at any corner.

As for clothing, you can wear what you fancy. Obviously, if you start breaking speed records down black runs you're going to learn to avoid coats that billow and anything that flaps in your face. I did once do a long blue in Cortina at high speed in a Dryzabone duster/long coat, which almost made me lose an edge simply due to buffetting/billowing (if not being briefly airborne). So fartbags or lycra have their advantages.

I'm not surprised that you and many others do manage to board everywhere in softs (I do), but there is also a big and enjoyable difference doing pistes on a hard setup vs a soft one. Sure, pros and cons, but try hards just so that you know what you're missing and then you'll know if there are conditions in which you might prefer them. Sod the fashionistas and trend setters. And no, you don't have to do high angles in lycra - just make sure the boots are a good fit (never use ill fitting hard boots). But beware that the 'brakes' as it were in hard boots are far fiercer and more effective.
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Would be interesting to try a compare and contrast session one day, preferably somewhere with plenty of run-off... though I suspect it'd take quite a bit to coax me out of my carpet slippers. It'd be interesting to try a more alpine setup sometime too - rotate the bindings round from the comfortable duck to something moew aggressive... preferably on a nice powder day when it won't hurt so much when the mountain hands me my back bottom to wear as a hat.
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Richard_Sideways, good luck! Madeye-Smiley
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To be honest I bought my board / bindings based on what the shop recomended as a beginner (and the board was in the half price sale so happy days) and I bought the jacket / trousers that I liked and fitted (no where near as baggy as some of those I see but then I'm not trendy)

So as a novice I spent a good hour getting decked out with excellent help in Sputnik, Marlow
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
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flyingjase, ah yes, but it was also determined by what the shop had in stock. If only freestyle boards are available, that's what you get.

Beginner skiers aren't assumed to want short and wide twin tips so they can play about all day in the fun park and powder.

It's a bit like boys being given guns, and girls given dolls.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
crosbie, I'll need it. Could never work out HOW that whole alpine fwd/fwd stance thing worked - tried it ONCE when messing about with bindings before going out on the hill - felt like i was going to dislocate my ankles - god only knows how i'll make a turn the day I MTFU and try it for real.
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Richard_Sideways, there are a wide variety of styles. You can stick with what you know, or you can get into the whole rotation/counter-rotation issue, and then there's the back knee tucked in the crook of the front if you fancy it. It depends whether you want to learn two styles/stances or one. You can stick to your duck stance if you want and adjust it depending upon what boots you have on. Some will say it's illegal/dangerous not to do it the 'right way', others will say do whatever works for you. If you take a lesson you'll probably be told to do it their way. I'd say try the duck stance you know first and see how you get on - just to keep things familiar to start with so you get an idea of how the boots affect control. Some folk carve in the duck or 0/0, some do it at 45/45, 60/45 or 60/60. Then again you can crank it up to 90/90 and consider the Skwal - see http://www.skwalzone.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2232
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Richard_Sideways wrote:
crosbie, I'll need it. Could never work out HOW that whole alpine fwd/fwd stance thing worked - tried it ONCE when messing about with bindings before going out on the hill - felt like i was going to dislocate my ankles - god only knows how i'll make a turn the day I MTFU and try it for real.


Before around '95 no-one (obviously some of the pioneers might) would teach duck stance, it was considered bad for the knees! Took me a long time to twist my back foot out so it is at the symetrical angle of my front, but feels strange when I pull it in a bit (which I only really do if I go on the search of powder).
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I did have a very early lesson circa 1999 at an indoor establishment which shall remain nameless (and near Birmingham) where when I asked about getting a rather uncomfortable positive rear angle changed was told "You should NEVER set your rear foot further back than zero degrees". That thinkings changed a bit.

That KingCarve is one alarming looking stick my friend! Shocked
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
crosbie, Shocked *rocks back and forth* "we accept all types of sliding, we accept all types of sliding, we accept all types of sliding, etc. etc. etc." Laughing Laughing Laughing

sorry, but i just don't get that type of riding. i like my duck-type (+12,-6 or -9) stance where i can ride switch, i can ride normal, i can do little helicopter turns on the piste (or off it if i don't stack it), i can do all sorts.

that stance and board restricts you to doing only one thing, in one direction, all day. duncan bannatyne stylee, "i'm out."
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Richard_Sideways, Yeah, skwals are for boarders who never learnt the falling leaf or going fakie - "Just point it down the hill!" that's all they know. Shocked

Nothing wrong with duck, no manicpb. I had a friend in '99 who used it to good effect.

Incidentally, I've created a new hard boot thread Why try or use hard boots?
.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Richard_Sideways, how about this gorgeous number last seen floating around val d'isere in jan 2010?

you likee?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
sherlock235 Laughing you dragon, you.
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Poster: A snowHead
sherlock235, and very colourful! Razz
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crosbie, Shocked was that you?!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
sherlock235, I dress in all black and have 60/45 angles or thereabouts.
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crosbie, Laughing

[off topic]i by day three of my last holiday my legs were in agony, but i couldn't figure out why.
i had a good look at my set up and and realised i had unwittingly set my bindings to -12/-9. i was doing a backwards race stance!
don't ask me how i didn't do myself damage rolling eyes.
suffice to say, when i hear the words "race stance", my shins squeak Laughing [/off topic]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
sherlock235, I think that's known as goofy, and you were no doubt riding goofy fakie. Not surprised it buggered you up if you're not naturally goofy. Shock
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crosbie, er not quite

goofy = right foot points forward, left foot points back; right foot is the forward foot in the stance
____________________________
(back \left foot\ /right foot/ front)
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regular = left foot points forward, right foot points back; left foot is the forward foot in the stance
____________________________
(back \right foot\ /left foot/ front)
---------------------------------

my understanding of race stance = both feet point forward with either foot being "in front"
____________________
(back /foot/ /foot/ front)
-----------------------

my crazy-stance = both feet pointed towards the back of the board without it being obvious. and i was riding facing forward Shocked Laughing
____________________________
(back \right foot\ \left foot\ front)
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
sherlock235, we are talking about a twin tip board aren't we? Goofy-fakie is equivalent to a regular stance with negative angles. There's only a significant difference if you've got a unidirectional board. Racing stance is still either regular or goofy, it's just higher angles, e.g. 60/60. There is the pigeon-toed stance - dunno if anyone finds that useful.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
crosbie, ish. in both regular and goofy stances, both feet point slightly out in a duck stance, across the waist of the board.

on a twin tip board goofy/regular means whether you ride with your left/right foot forward. it's fakie (or switch) if you decide to ride in the opposite direction i.e. with the front of your board becoming the back of your board so you're riding backwards. but that doesn't matter so much when you're riding a twin tip.

and this is where having a true duck stance (e.g. +15/-15) would be a good idea. but very few people have a natural "duck" stance. most will be supported by one or the other leg, and their foot will be more or less duck accordingly. in my case my front foot is pointing towards the front of the board, 12 degrees from the perpendicular; my back foot is pointing towards the back of the board, 9 degrees from the perpendicular.

the positive and negative in front of the numbers indicates that the front foot is pointing forward, the back foot is pointing towards the back of the board.

so yes, having both feet at negative angles would mean i was riding racing angles in a switch/fakie position. i'm not that hot on riding switch though, so i wasn't really able to "enjoy" the experience from that perspective. though it certainly would've helped with the shin screams.

and yes, you're right. freeriding boards will tend to be the only ones that are unidirectional e.g. jones snowboards, burton fish, burton malolo, etc. i think those will probably be a bit hard, if not impossible to ride switch Laughing.

the pigeon-toed stance is a bad idea in any (haha pardon the pun) walk of life. i can't imagine you'd get very far on a board if you decided to try out those angles.
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crosbie wrote:
sherlock235, I dress in all black and have 60/45 angles or thereabouts.


I'm beginning to suspect that Crosbie cannot be seen using normal light spectrum while riding, and his passing can only be detected by the trail of perfect razor sharp carved turn lines and the occasional small box of milk chocolates left in his wake... Very Happy
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Richard_Sideways, pah. NehNeh I consider myself a learner when it comes to carving. I used to do it in ski boots fine, but since a period of using soft boots I've lost the knack. Now, I just do fast S'es. I could do with a season to dedicate to the technique and get my knack back.
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