Us novices are often told that continuation of the turn is an effective means to scrub of unwanted speed. However, prompted by comments on another thread. What is the best way of losing speed if the track is steep, but not wide enough to put in a proper turn that you can use to knock off the speed? I mentioned the top part of Aiguille Rouge in Les Arcs on the other thread - many of you might recognise the bit I mean - the first two red stretches with the tight LH turn from the top before it meets the short black section as the sort of slope I mean.
I common with the other poster, I'm not best pleased next to the 'edge', but the slope was really too steep to plough (and I didn't want to look like a twit!), so I ended up skiing a little in a straight line and then doing little hockey stops. Is there a better method?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Megamum, Side slip and stay safe.
And then later practice skiing an imaginary narrow 'corridor' on a shorter \ wider slope that's of similar steepness to the one you want to master. This keeps you safe, gives you good quality practice and limits of the consequences of a tumble.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Just keep your hockey stop going and falling leaf it out? Or "linked hockey stop" if you feel comfortable turning across the fall line.
rob@rar, I have seen you guys getting peeps to ski inbetween poles and stop and side slip a modified version of this might help Megamum,
Quote:
twisty and skiddy.
I guess good old fashioned short swings would do the trick as well
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Short, swing turns? Is that the expression? The drill I was taught to execute this, IIRC, was to face downhill, holding poles up in front to "frame" something in the distance. Then make short turns, whilst holding the framed image between the two poles i.e. maintaining a down hill facing posture with the top half of the body and turning from the hips down to control descent/speed within a narrow range of turns......instructors?
After all it is free
After all it is free
As rob@rar says with regards a proper turn above. Braquage aka Zero Speed Turns.
Hurtle loved these on the WS course at Hemel last year!!!
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Quote:
Us novices are often told that continuation of the turn is an effective means to scrub of unwanted speed
hmm. we might be told that when doing big radius turns on a nice wide easy piste. But it's not exactly the "novice" means of scrubbing off unwanted speed. maybe you need a different instructor, Megamum? We should all learn how to side slip under control, straight down, or diagonally forward and back (ie falling leaf) on both skis (ie looking both ways). Those nice jumpy "couloir" turns are beyond me, but being good at side-slipping is a big confidence-booster. I saw two kids, looked like siblings, each with their very own private instructor, one day last season. I was going up a long drag and enjoying watching them, side-slipping facing their instructors, being given the little "forward/back" adjustments. Good to see.
it is fun trying to do the big carving turns up the hill though - the 360s which instructors make look so annoyingly effortless. I've only managed it once or twice because I know that whatever I try to tell myself, I'm not really "carving", at all, most of the time! When I can do the 360 turns back up the hill every time, I'll know that I've cracked it and got rid of the skid which is currently stopping me half way round the turn nearly every time.
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Nothing wrong with a snow plough when needed, it's just another tool in the box. You'll look more of a twit slamming into someone on a cat track than doing a controlled plough.
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Dr John wrote:
Nothing wrong with a snow plough when needed,
Tough to do on a steep, narrow piste, especially for any length of time.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
livetoski wrote:
rob@rar, I have seen you guys getting peeps to ski inbetween poles and stop and side slip a modified version of this might help Megamum,
We use that as part of a progression towards braquage type turns (lots of rotation and subtle edge control). Works a treat, and is fun to do as well.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
livetoski wrote:
I guess good old fashioned short swings would do the trick as well
Speed control is a challenge...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Chasseur wrote:
Short, swing turns? Is that the expression? The drill I was taught to execute this, IIRC, was to face downhill, holding poles up in front to "frame" something in the distance. Then make short turns, whilst holding the framed image between the two poles i.e. maintaining a down hill facing posture with the top half of the body and turning from the hips down to control descent/speed within a narrow range of turns......instructors?
That's a separation drill (separating the movement of your upper body from your lower body). Essential skill for skiing short radius turns, especially on steep terrain.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Perhaps I should have added, that I can side slip and have used it to my advantage on the odd blacker section in the past, but there is also the dork aspect to consider if there is braver, more effective, 'looks like she knows what she is doing' method.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Megamum, there's absolutely nothing dorkish about effective side-slipping and it doesn't have to be slow. My son was out skiing with his instructor friends on their day off one day and faced with a terrifying icy steep pitch (Val D'Isere somewhere). They told him how to do it - sideslip, keep skis flat at all costs, and don't try to stop or turn until you get to a nice soft bit. (Probably not the sort of thing they ever do with paying clients!). Then demonstrated, at huge speed. He said it was the scariest thing he'd ever done - but it worked. Trying to snowplough a steep section on the other hand........ definitely dorkish.
180 side slips are a good way into the quick turns - I practice those quite a lot but still find edges tending to get in the way - hard to keep the skis really flat and swivel them from the feet.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Megamum, Nothing wrong with side-slipping especially if it keeps you safe and in control.
I'm happy to side-slip when it suites me and I recall a Video of a certain well regarded Instructor mostly side slipping something that they had obviously decided they wanted nothing to do with
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum, all off-piste guides I've been with have done plenty of side-slip and snowplough, so neither technique is anything to be ashamed of. But maybe you need a couple of lessons on short turns, for another tool in the box. Practising in a narrow corridor at the edge of the piste is useful, and keeps you out of the way of maniacs (most of the time).
Just keep your hockey stop going and falling leaf it out? Or "linked hockey stop" if you feel comfortable turning across the fall line.
So it's OK for skiers to do this then?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Megamum, I try not to blatantly schlep my DVDs here on Snowheads, but dang it all, girl, you've really got to get my Basic Skills set. The Basic Edging DVD deals in vast detail with this very issue. Good speed control skills are paramount for skiing the entire mountain in comfort and control. Unfortunately, so many skiers don't have them, or even understand what they are. In part, I blame elements within the world of instruction for that sad reality. I've worked with students over here who have been training extensively with high level PSIA instructors, examiner level in fact, and when I show them speed control skills I get comments like, "Why have I never learned about this before?", and, "Wow, that's great, am I really allowed to do this, I thought I had to always try to carve?" Yikes!
The two primary speed control tools are turn shape and skid angle. Turn shape has to do with how sharply you turn, and how long you keep turning. Skid angle has to do with how much skid you include in your turn. The bigger the skid angle, the wider the skid track you produce as you turn. The more skid, the slower you go. With these two tools, turn shape and skid angle, you can ski any terrain on the mountain, with any line you desire, and at any speed you find comfortable. That even applies to the terrain you describe in your original post.
Unfortunately, with the introduction of the shape ski, instruction models often now attempt to rush people into carving. In the process, development of a full package of the crucially important steering skills, which include the speed control tools I mentioned above, get skipped, leaving students ill equipped for skiing the entire mountain comfortably. At some point, students need to take a step back, and fill the holes in that area of their skill base.
Here's an article I wrote on this subject, which discusses and explains in more depth, the speed control tools you need to learn, Megamum. Have a read, it will be well worth your time.
Just keep your hockey stop going and falling leaf it out? Or "linked hockey stop" if you feel comfortable turning across the fall line.
So it's OK for skiers to do this then?[/quote
When a skier does it its called a powerslide or bracauge and is cool, when a boarder does it its just another slowboarder who should go back to the the park
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
rob@rar wrote:
lots of rotation and subtle edge control.
What he said ^^
Play with foot rotation, learn to braquage, then learn to braquage at speed(stop everynow and then when you catch a downhill edge and give snowboarders a thought...awwwww). Keeping the upper body facing down the hill helps wind/unwind a lot easier.
Mess around with feeling rotation from the ankle, the knee and then the whole leg within the hip socket. Skis off and try drawing some butterflys in the snow with an unweighted boot, make sure you are rotating the foot from the middle not the heel or toe. Subtle control of rotation is as important as subtle control of your edges.
Start enjoying the feeling of sucking your knees back under you and a completely flat ski rotating directly under your centre of mass as you powerslarve past those mere mortals sideslipping it out.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Just look for someone big and fat and ski into them for a soft landing.
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Straightline it.
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T Bar, I know just the person
FastMan, I have had a read of the article. I don't know if I could have fitted in a skidded turn as described or not, clearly they are worth trying to sort out before I next head up there.
Thanks for all the ideas folks. It's clearly worth practising before I put myself in that situation again - it was more a 'well I got down it' situation rather than 'I did it in style', however I did feel in control, however I accomplished it. I'm off to see Inside Out skiing later on this month and I think we are looking at balance - that might help with turn initiation as it should get me properly weighted to engage the edges effectively and immediately.
I've done some 'swing turns', but as mentioned above I don't think that would rub off any speed unless I got some of FastMan's, skidding into them.
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Megamum wrote:
I don't know if I could have fitted in a skidded turn .
I refer you to right honourable Mr Rars reply earlier:
Quote:
You can put a proper turn in within a track which is as wide as your skis are long.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
[quote="fatbob"]
Swirly wrote:
DaveC wrote:
Just keep your hockey stop going and falling leaf it out? Or "linked hockey stop" if you feel comfortable turning across the fall line.
So it's OK for skiers to do this then?[/quote
When a skier does it its called a powerslide or bracauge and is cool, when a boarder does it its just another slowboarder who should go back to the the park
I think the big difference is that it takes a reasonable skill level to do it on skis, and it's the default panic/newbie movement on boards
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
DaveC wrote:
I think the big difference is that it takes a reasonable skill level to do it on skis, and it's the default panic/newbie movement on boards
Agreed.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
kitenski, Mmm.....but it could put you damn close to the edge (or closer than you are comfy with)
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Megamum wrote:
kitenski, Mmm.....but it could put you damn close to the edge (or closer than you are comfy with)
Not sure I understand why doing braquage type turns would leave you any closer to a terrain change than any other way of getting down the slope?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Megamum, as your skills at doing it improve, you'll find that a large skid angle actually tends to try to encourage a smaller turn radius (the reason is a little technical, so I won't go it that right now). So yes, large skid angle turns can be done in, and are well suited for, very tight areas.
The other option is to include a pivot during the transition between turns, but to be most effective for speed control purposes, it must be followed with the large skid angle turning method I've been speaking about.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
rob@rar, Well I guess not if you are talking braquage (a term I comprehend from the glossary from a while back now) - though is it technically a 'proper turn' as per your quote? In reality if I could do those I guess it would be similar to a hockey stop with less anchorage. Though I must admit I hadn't seen braquage as something which be used as 'brakes' If it can be used as brakes I am now interested enough to try it out in January .
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Megamum, not sure what the definition of a proper turn is, but with braquage (pivot slips for my friend from the other side of the Atlantic ) your skis are turned/twisted through approximately 180 degrees so in my book that's a proper turn. The speed control comes more from finely balancing the amount of edge angle and skidding with the speed of descent that you want. One of the drills I use on gentle slopes is to have the quickest rate of descent you can manage but still steering your (very flat) skis, so it's not just a 'slow' way of skiing.
our coaches use the braquage as part of the skills assement night, quite difficult to do on a dry slope and you do need a bit of speed to be moving down the fall line with your skis perpendicluar and then to be able to begin skiing the fall line again before repeating.......
Megamum, Watch this and practice on your own on a wider slope... you can pretty much turn your skis sideways without deviating from a straight line path.
jonm, the video shows good technique with the shoulders facing down the fall line and parallel to the skis during the turn phase , key to continuing down the fall line. Megamum, just remember the shoulders and you will have amazing control over speed and direction when things get a wee bit narrow.
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jonm, That's a better one
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There's no way pure braccquage is suitable for speed control either, given the idea is not to edge... but the concept is fine for explaining the situation. Anyway, has no-one mentioned the easiest route of go straight and deal with it when there's more room?
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
We should all learn how to side slip under control, straight down, or diagonally forward and back (ie falling leaf) on both skis (ie looking both ways). Those nice jumpy "couloir" turns are beyond me, but being good at side-slipping is a big confidence-booster. I saw two kids, looked like siblings, each with their very own private instructor, one day last season. I was going up a long drag and enjoying watching them, side-slipping facing their instructors, being given the little "forward/back" adjustments. Good to see.
.
