 Poster: A snowHead
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This post is going to get a bit unpleasant, I'll deal with the obvious jokes later.
I'm looking to get some new some new skiing thermals, the choice seems to come down to some sort of wicking stuff, exemplified by the original Helly Hanson Lifa, or alternatively merino wool.
The problem is that I've never been convinced by 'wicking' thermals. The idea seems fine at normal perspiration levels where water vapour (or rather sweat vapour) is transported away from the skin, but I perspire heavily when skiing (ie I'm a sweaty bug) and it doesn't seem to work when I'm producing big drops of liquid sweat. Instead I just end up with a soaking wet thermal next to the skin, which cools down when I stop, leaving me chilled.
Merino wool seems like the answer because it will stay warm when damp. However good stuff seems very expensive, it takes forever to dry, and I tried it when it first appeared in the UK (early 1980s). The early stuff rapidly lost its shape after a few washes and turned into a saggy, baggy mess.
I've often thought that 'string vest' type underwear may be the answer, where a mesh of non absorbent material holds the next layer away from the skin. creating pockets of air as insulation, and preventing chilling. Sadly the traditional granddads' string vest seems to have vanished almost entirely, although I did find this Norwegian manufacturer
http://www.manufactum.co.uk/Produkt/193771/838614/Brynje-String-Vest.html
Although this manufacturer does a T shirt that would fit the bill they don't seem to do long johns.
I will add that searching 'string underwear' on Google produces some fascinating niche sites, I wouldn't recommend you try it at work 
Anyway, has anyone tried string type thermals? anyone know any other manufacturers? Any thoughts/suggestions?
Joke Section
I am, as it happens technically a Geordie so the wearing of string vests is in my genes. I will of course have a bottle of Newcastle Brown tucked down the front, and wear a knotted hankie on my head 
Also, in the absence of finding suitable long johns I will be forced to use the next best thing ie ladies fishnet stockings (complete with suspenders), purely in the interests of thermal comfort. There, my preemptive cross dressing justification is complete. 
End Joke Section
i am actually serious. All feedback, ribald or otherwise is welcome.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Spud9, wicking only works if each layer is taking the sweat away, sounds like you are either too hot or your outer layer maybe isn't breathable and is trapping all the sweat?
Are you talking about long johns underneath ski pants or upper layer, or both? If the former, do you need long johns? I have slightly insulated ski pants and have never worn long johns even with -20 temps. One other thought do you have pit zips on your jacket and thigh vents on your trousers? Both will help with getting air in and circulating if your hot...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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what else are you wearing which is making you so sweaty?
i am not a big fan of merino if i am doing something very energetic. ok, it keeps it's thermal qualities when wet, but it takes ages to dry and gets very heavy like you say. i wear patagonia capilene 1 base layers which are very light and very comfy.
andy kirkpatrick (who seems to have given this sort of thing a lot of thought) reckons string vests are a good idea so why not try it:
| andy kirkpatrick's website wrote: |
| Your base layer should provide minimal actual insulation (being low density and thickness), with the ideal being – dare I say it – a string vest (look at Brynje underwear). That isn’t to say that this layer shouldn’t be warm, but this warmth comes from the fact that it isn’t conducting your heat away from you – as it’s the insulation layers that should do the real warming). Building up a good ‘comfortable and cool when dry’ yet still ‘warm when wet’ is the ideal system for active use. The term ‘system’ shouldn’t give the impression that you get one clothing system that covers any eventuality – the most important thing is to regulate it so that it works. As for suggestions – having a very thin but close-fitting base layer is ideal, as this kind of fit will speed up the base layer’s drying speed helped by its low water holding ability. The insulation piece you wear should be ‘active insulation’ designed to maintain a comfortable skin temperature yet be able to dump the heat before overheating (full zip, sleeves that can be pulled up to your elbows). A very thin windproof micro pile top (Marmot Driclime, Rab Vaporise etc) is ideal for this, creating a true soft shell, worn as both the base and mid layer – which makes heat dumping easier and the chance of overheating much lower. A secondary insulation piece held in reserve for ‘passive insulation’ is also required – perhaps a thin, high loft, shelled ‘puffball’ type synthetic duvet, which would be worn when static, or when warming. This type of clothing puts much lower demands on your shell – it will increase the shell’s effectiveness in many ways – plus is much more able to cope when moisture does appear within the shell (the speed bump concept), either stopping it from getting any further, or keeping you comfortable and drying quickly if it does. |
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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kitenski, I ski in Goretex shells, top and bottom, ie no insulation. I'm talking about base layer under the Goretex on my legs and with one or two thin fleeces on my top half. The problem is that pretty much any amount of exertion on my part will leave me bathed in sweat. For example, imagine a fine still autumn day in the lakes. If I walked up a fell side topless I would still end up bathed in sweat. No amount of wicking is going to help in those circumstances, you can't have less insulation than none!
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Arno, very interesting quote. It's pleasing to see that I'm not completely out of step with everyone on this. Brynje is indeed the manufacturer I found. This has convinced me to order a couple of their t shirts and see how they perform.
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Spud9, I share your sweaty genotype I think. I just have pretty cheap wicking stuff, e.g. coolmax tees, but have found that the only solution is to be in the minimal layers as possible then avoid going in a gondola or cable car on the first run of the day, otherwise it is sopping city. When I had a shell jacket I usually only ever had a thin wick t and a thin fleece on, and supplemented with a neck warmer to keep heat in if it was really cold. When we have lunch stops, I make sure I take all layers off to the tee level, to try and air. I have the same problem cycling too - especially when commuting to work.
Hope you get a solution - wonder if they do lady string vests?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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altis, I'm not sure I can get my head around those graphs. Care to deduce them for me? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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if you're a sweaty booger, you will still be a sweaty booger no matter what shell fabric you use
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'll have to disagree with you there Arno.
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Spud9, if you sweat with one or two fleeces between the base layer and the Gore shell, wear one fleece less! I very rarely have more than a thin fleece on when I do proper skiing (ie offpiste, when I work at it) - in temps not far below zero Celsius I will often have just the base layer (a cheap but wicking one) and the shell. (As soon as I just ski around with my family I need extra insulation as there's no serious exercise to keep me warm, but then I don't sweat much either).
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You know it makes sense.
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altis, probably due to chronic lack of fitness, once i am doing something like skinning, i will be sweating even if i actually feel cold. alternatively i am just a freak... anyway, i subscribe to the idea of some fabrics being more comfortable given the moisture i am throwing at them than others. recently picked up a patagonia R1 fleece off fleabay (yes I am a patagonia fanboi) and a capilene baselayer plus that can be pretty sopping wet but still comfortable
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Spud9, UnderArmour and Walmart have some great string vests, it's just that the holes are tiny and close together. In fact the 'Dri-Star' brand are fantastic at $8.00. They did have some long boxers but seem to be out of stock on those . . . I used the vests (high neck and short sleeve) with a good thin fleece and a well vented shell jacket last eosb and had no cold problems and I sweat like the proverbial horse.
Look at ASDA to see if they carry the same product (Walmart owns ASDA)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Spud9 wrote: |
Also, in the absence of finding suitable long johns I will be forced to use the next best thing ie ladies fishnet stockings (complete with suspenders), purely in the interests of thermal comfort. There, my preemptive cross dressing justification is complete.
i am actually serious. All feedback, ribald or otherwise is welcome. |
Still awaiting the required photographs for your application, frontals and profiles will do, ideally now in stockings.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| sexualsteve wrote: |
| Spud9 wrote: |
Also, in the absence of finding suitable long johns I will be forced to use the next best thing ie ladies fishnet stockings (complete with suspenders), purely in the interests of thermal comfort. There, my preemptive cross dressing justification is complete.
i am actually serious. All feedback, ribald or otherwise is welcome. |
Still awaiting the required photographs for your application, frontals and profiles will do, ideally now in stockings. |
Regrettably such photos are not available, for reasons of national security.
I was however pleased to hear that plans for your trip have moved forward. Unfortunately I will not be able to join you. My interests lie in....other directions.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Spud9, Get your mum, or your OH, to knit you a string vest ! Great big holes = lots of room for evaporation.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Spud9 wrote: |
This post is going to get a bit unpleasant, The problem is that I've never been convinced by 'wicking' thermals. The idea seems fine at normal perspiration levels where water vapour (or rather sweat vapour) is transported away from the skin, but I perspire heavily when skiing (ie I'm a sweaty bug) and it doesn't seem to work when I'm producing big drops of liquid sweat. Instead I just end up with a soaking wet thermal next to the skin, which cools down when I stop, leaving me chilled.
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Perhaps not having the 7 pints and half a bottle of red the previous night may help with the sweats
Actually scratch that idea it'd ruin everyones holiday 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Spud9 wrote: |
| kitenski, I ski in Goretex shells, top and bottom, ie no insulation. I'm talking about base layer under the Goretex on my legs and with one or two thin fleeces on my top half. The problem is that pretty much any amount of exertion on my part will leave me bathed in sweat. For example, imagine a fine still autumn day in the lakes. If I walked up a fell side topless I would still end up bathed in sweat. No amount of wicking is going to help in those circumstances, you can't have less insulation than none! |
Fleeces???? I reckon you are overheating, have you tried no long johns, no fleeces & simple t shirt or long sleeve t??
I have skied in goretex shell with berghuas t and long sleeve down to a about -6, adding thin fleece after that...
Have you tried your autumnal test???
Interesting thread this one.....
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Intrigued by the idea of knitting a string vest (my very poor knitting skills would hardly matter on such a garment) I googled the following charming retro knitting patterns: http://www.theretroknittingcompany.co.uk/underwear.html some excellent men's patterns towards the bottom of the page.
I wonder how much it would cost to knit a merino wool under thing, compared to buying them?
What would you use to knit a string vest? Cotton wouldn't be great, would it?
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Botox. I'm serious - a recognized remedy for hyperhidrosis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
Intrigued by the idea of knitting a string vest (my very poor knitting skills would hardly matter on such a garment) I googled the following charming retro knitting patterns: http://www.theretroknittingcompany.co.uk/underwear.html some excellent men's patterns towards the bottom of the page.
I wonder how much it would cost to knit a merino wool under thing, compared to buying them?
What would you use to knit a string vest? Cotton wouldn't be great, would it? |
or alternatively, take a cotton t shirt and cut a lot of small holes in it 
Anyway, I've just ordered a couple of the stringy T shirts from the site I linked to in my original post. I'll report back when I've used them somewhere cold.
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Megamum, yes, my jacket has pit zips, and damn useful they are. They don't prevent the problem entirely though. Possibly the main issue is how to avoid dying of hypothermia at 9.00 in the morning while still being comfortable at 2.00 in the afternoon. Alternative solutions could be-
- Stay in bed till 11.00am.
- Carry a rucksack and strip off a layer at lunchtime.
neither exactly appeals.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Spud9 wrote: |
Megamum, yes, my jacket has pit zips, and damn useful they are. They don't prevent the problem entirely though. Possibly the main issue is how to avoid dying of hypothermia at 9.00 in the morning while still being comfortable at 2.00 in the afternoon. Alternative solutions could be-
- Stay in bed till 11.00am.
- Carry a rucksack and strip off a layer at lunchtime.
neither exactly appeals. |
So my first diagnosis sounds right, you are overheating, carry a rucksack, and change layers, simple & cost effective solution.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Spud9, You're definitely on the right track with those Brynje 'string' thermals. I've had a set (long sleeve and long johns) for nearly ten years now. They were issued to me while doing an Arctic warfare course with the Norwegian Army. We were instructed to wear them at all times (even during 30km biathlon events) not for warmth per se but for wicking capacity. If it was cold we would wear a thermal base layer over the string layer. Clearly not the most fetching stuff but works a treat.
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Spud9, you're asking rather a lot of an outfit - to keep you comfortable the entire time, whether it's cold or warm outside, without taking anything on or off.
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You know it makes sense.
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Have you tried the mountain biking thermals... Dryweave material etc? As a first layer they work very well at transporting moisture. And as said above, pit zips are the way to go... on pants and jacket.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Scarpa, pit zips on pants? Are you Simon Cowell?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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scotia, The starstruck young singer slowly reached over and unzipped Simon's flies. She gently inserted her fingers and began to stroke his chest
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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OK... vents then.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Merino's the biz as far as I'm concerned.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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+1 for merino. I use icebreaker gear these days, and could win a prize for being a sweaty b4stard. Icebreaker works better than anything else I've used.
Also, I drive past the sheep that are used to make the gear every day. And they're very happy looking sheep.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think there's merino and merino. I have a very nice, light, Patagonia base layer I bought in a discount outlet in North Wales and have worn for weeks and weeks and weeks (did wash it occasionally). However I've tried on some others which felt awkward, tight in the wrong places, not nearly so comfortable. And merino is everywhere - loads of cheap jumpers in Marks and Spencers.
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And talking of merino, have just bought a very nice heavy knitted pink merino coat with a fleece lining for my eldest grand-daughter. French, originally - now £4 in Sue Ryder. It's everywhere.
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Spud9, Found your string vest for you! Was browsing in the cycling section of Decathlon yesterday and they have them there. Very fine mesh like vests, in the B Twin range of cycling underwear, only about £5.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
