 Poster: A snowHead
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| thirty06, could be wrong, but I think david@mediacopy was implying that training combined with decent [appropriate] equipment are likely to give the best results. |
Yes, exactly.
My personal experience is that I spent a too long training on ski's which were inappropriate to what I was trying to do. I guess it was a different situation to that described in the article, as at the time I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread. However with hind sight I now know that a more piste\race orientated ski would have helped me develop a bit quicker.
and to be fair Fastman alludes to choosing something appropriate in the last chapter.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I guess it was a different situation to that described in the article, as at the time I thought they were the best thing since sliced bread.
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I would have thought that was exactly what was being described in the article - looking for that sliced bread equipment. The best skier (by a very, very, long way) in our family will ski on anything. Of course there are some skis he likes more than others, but he can get on anything and make it look good and have a great time. And if one ski falls apart completely he'll carry on on the other.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Choose a ski that best suits your aims
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Good advice and possibly something for a stuck in the middle intermediate like me to think about. And having read the article, I had to agree with everything in it.
The issue I have with choosing skis is that although I have skied for 16+ years, I wouldn't really know what kind of ski would suit me if it fell on my head. Now that may be because there is soo much techno geek guff written by the manufacturers, and it definitely to do with the fact that I have not one clue how the differences between skis work/give you the best for you. This only gets compounded by the fact that when you hire skis on line you rarely get what you asked for when you arrive. But would you know if you had got a 'better' or 'worse' ski anyway??? If you only get 1 or 2 weeks on the piste, it seems to me that it is a bit of a waste of that precious time to be having to go back and change skis, but OTH I always get the feeling that if you went back for a replacement you'd look like some kind of knobhead getting skis beyond your capability.
I write as someone who is probably not going to get into buying my own skis at any rate, which IMO would have to be another nightmare of dither...if my choosing of the cycles I have bought in the past has been anything to go by.
But the fact remains, I would like to be able to know that I am getting the best out of my ski time by having something that I can control, and that is suited to me. So, where to start
Confused, moi  You bet. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret,
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i bought the titans cause they were cheap ) and so far they suck
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Haha, serve you right! 
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Hurtle, quite right i told myself never again will i be buying skis on spec without trying em out first and have already bought two pairs this year 
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skimottaret, difficult to get to test certain skis though. F'instance I'd like to try any or all of Salomon 2V Race Powerline 185cm 19m, Atomic Race FIS D2 GS Women 183cm 24m, Elan GS WaveFlex Fusion 182cm 20m, Elan GSX FIS WaveFlex Plate 182cm 24m and Volkl Racetiger GS World Cup 183cm 24m. S'far as I can see looks like I'll have to buy off spec and others' opinions.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w, Not the same, but it will depend on your take on the article. My take was that fastman was alluding to people buying 'better' ski's to make up for technical deficiencies. At the time I was pretty happy with the way I was skiing.
Having thought about the article while walking today, I wonder if when people are buying gear in that way, they are not so much to 'buying a turn' in terms of technique, rather than 'buying confidence'.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| I wonder if when people are buying gear in that way, they are not so much to 'buying a turn' in terms of technique, rather than 'buying confidence'. |
...or buying aspirations?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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slikedges, what I've been told is that any FIS ski will perform and feel broadly the same. At the first PSB (Mondial, Deux Alpes) Elan had lots of WC skis to try ...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| Having thought about the article while walking today |
You can fall over thinking about skiing while walking! 
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laundryman,  yep being a bloke I can't multitask...
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, Yep that too. It's certainly a factor in other markets. Motorcycles must a reasonable comparison. Lot's of very powerful kit, which very few have the skills to utilise to the full.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I think spending money on new shiny things is just what most of us like to do sometimes and some of us like to do all the time, isn't it? After all people will spend loads on new shiny things which will have no effect whatsoever on their ski ability (jackets, helmets, etc).
I can't talk; I have just spent almost two hours on the internet researching the best balance bike to buy for my grand-daughter's second birthday.
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, but that's about the pleasure of seeing her delight. Not the same thing at all!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm glad this sparked all this consideration, that's exactly what it was suppose to do. Nothing wrong with drooling over new toys, he/she who dies with the most wins, you know. Just as long as the realities of what they will actually do for your skiing are understood, and such false dreams are not the root motivation. Just attempting to help people avoid getting all caught up in the profit driven hype, and shining a light on the realities of how real improvements in one's skiing comes to life. That's why I wrote this.
I'll be posting up a new article very soon. Very timely, very skill orientated, not at all as depressing to the gear focused among us.
david@mediacopy, I hear ya about that dang male multi tasking issue gene. Women make my simple mind dizzy!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm in no way criticizing how people choose their gear, or their motivations for buying, in whatever sport they do. It's a free country, we live in a materialistic society and that's why manufacturers fund marketing departments 
(on the subject of material things, fast motorbikes, and stuff I don't need: "Dear Santa, I've been good this year so can I have an Ducati 848 Evo, please.")
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under a new name, and I'd been told that they feel different! I was hoping to come across a race ski test in Tux as I did in Kaprun one year but no such luck. Spent all day yesterday on Dobermann GS Pros.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Fastman.
Totally agree about the hype thing. For top of the range stuff where experienced skiers are looking for a specific stlye of ski then there is usually some sense, but when there are a dozen 'ranges' fo skis in varying grades from one manufacturer it starts to look silly.
Dear old Salomon must take the biscuit for range expansion. They started with three skis, graded 1s 2s and 3s, GS downhil and slalom. All started with a 9 (9000 was it ?) then they added stuff beginning with 8 then 7 all the way down. Then there was PRO and Equipe and Evolution and so on. The top stuff was pretty good, the beginner level stuff is pretty good, but the 'intermediate' skis all make almost identical claims yet seem to need to be distinguished in some way. As far as I can see they are all pretty well identical except for the graphics.
All have some quirk that 'transmits more power to the edge'. This also applies to boots and bindings. Quite honestly, unless the darned things are made of rubber I can't see how they'd fail to transmit power to the egde if you lean them over and stomp them a bit.
I bought a pair of MLX9s as my first skis. They worked pretty well. I got the idea that I needed to upgrade and being a tightwad I got two pairs from the small ads. One pair were EXP 9100 Equipe 2S which had been rated 'Ski of the year' in the Daily Mail mag. They were awful for me, I tried them for half the week and then gave up on them. Later I found out a couple of things. Thing one was from a ski tech who said that they basically only worked well if you liked bombing everywhere at thirty plus, utterly antisocial in a mixed ability ski holiday. Thing two was from Private Eye which revealed that this ski was rated 'not so great' in the USA, the difference from the UK being that the US magazines did not depend so much on advertising revenue from a well known large retail chain who in turn depended on largesse from Salomon.
The other pair were 200cm Kastle Speed machine slalom skis. They were "£$^ing amazing. Roll them over and stomp them and the next ting I knew I was pointing back up the hill. I had to label them left and right because one edge had been whacked badly, but these things would hold on ice like it was tarmac. I abused these skis until they and I were starting to show their age and then looked for something else. The fact that the Marker bindings started at 7 was also a little worrying.
I tested some stuff at Milton Keynes. Couldn't get on with Rossi Bandits at all and found that X Screams just went where I pointed them with no fuss or bother. There's another weirdly expanded range. X-Scream Series 10 were pretty good. What you could expect of 8s, 7s, 6s and the rest I don't know, the basic X-Scream seemd to be the same as the other beginners' skis only yellow instead of red or blue. Each numbered progression claimed to be slightly more sporty than the lower number, also slightly more expensive. I really can't see that there needs to be that finely graded a spectrum of ski performance, so I reckon that it's a marketting thing. A bit like cars with S, SL, SX etc., but at least with cars you get a better radio and central locking.
Now I have a quiver that consists of a pair of Orion slalom skis that are supposed to be knock offs of the Atomic SL11, my X-Screams that still go where I point them and pair of Wedze Quechas that fit neatly in the back of the car and feel pretty much like any other ski underfoot.
I've tried out just about all the skis at my ski club from beginners stuff to the Scleaver (?) and frankly there doesn't seem to be a darned bit of difference to them. I'm too heavy for the ones with the picture of Donald Duck on them otherwise I'd give those a go as well.
The new ranges bemuse me. There are twin tipped things with with names like Super Mega Death Kill. I am waiting for the Salomon range of Axe Muderer skis, presumably with the Axe Murderer Eqipe Pro at the top of the range right down to the Axe Murderer 5 with the Hatchet Slayer for kids and not forgetting the Axe Murderer Lady with a slighly forward binding mount and a pinker colour for the blood splatter graphics.
When arheologists next uncover a stash of neolithic skis will they discover a runestone and decode it to find that it says "Grargs all mountain Performance pro skis come with enhanced birch root bindings, designed to complement Grargs new range of high performance Reindeer hide boots transmitting more power to the edge allowing smoother turns in powder, for lesser skiers, consider the Grarg 8 with gentler response, not forgetting the Garg Lady" ?
It was ever thus.
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slikedges, sure, there are differences in feel and sometimes in performance (i.e. comparing my SLRs to TOH's old P60s - the SLR-Rs aremassively more demanding but equally massively more fun/performant.
But - I don't think you run the same risk of being disappointed as you do with more heterogenous ski types.
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| Quote: |
Super Mega Death Kill
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It's not just skis. I drove behind a caravan being towed at 30 mph by two old dears the other day - it was called an "Avenger". I expect their friends had the "Plunderer" and the "Ravager".
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pam w, I've been stuck behind plenty of 'Renegade' vans 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FastMan, I twigged the point of the article and I daresay you are largely correct. However, having gone to more advanced and stiffer skis last year, struggled and finally succeeded with them, (although it cost me a few days expensive skiing) I do really think they improved my technique. They took no prisoners, and I think forced me to abandon bad habits and start to improve my skiing technique. I now wouldn't go back as I prefer them to my softer skis. Does this surprise you as it is contrary to the gist of your article?
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Megamum, do you think they improved your technique more than spending the same amount of additional time on snow PLUS the cost of the skis on top quality lessons?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Megamum, I suspect you're a minor league spender on equipment compared to most of those whom the article is addressing. Same here!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The "can't buy a turn" refrain seems to be very popular on Epic often from ski instructor or old school types who simply haven't tried the more progressive ski shapes. I also don't think you can neglect the placebo effect - if someone buys new kit they can often feel more confident and so experience a performance boost independent of the equipment.
I think there is a valid question over how much of the "rocker revolution" will turn out to be like "shaped/carving" skis and how much empty marketing froth. Skills will always be needed but also I think a toolkit mindset which the best instructors encourage to get the best from any given ski, terrain and conditions.
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Megamum.
No it isn't in catradistinction to the article
If you skied well on your original skis and then had to work a bit to keep up with your new skis, then that is right and proper. It's not as if you were sliding sideways in a horrible crab posture like a drunken aardvark on a polished floor, blamed the whole thing on a 'lack of edge grip' in your skis and then bought some brightly coloured plastic planks having seen an A5 handout at a ski show which claimed that:
Rosalomostar2's new Atomic Mutant Death Slaughter Lite range have extra grundling wobbits in their grunkle flanges ensuring a quicker edge transition and firmer hold. Combined with contemporary graphics (Users must be 18 or over to view graphics) these space age wonders will take you all over the mountain with ease.
They will turn like a a dream on ice, powder, bumps, crud, slush, concrete and small children. This is thanks to the all new manufacturing technique that is definitley not the same as the one we used last year when you bought a pair of Razor Fight 5's and found that you just slid sideways every time you tried to turn despite the fact that elderly people and household pets were using you as a mobile slalom pole on the same surface.
YES! The new Rosalomostar2 Atomic Mutant Death Slaughter Lite will definitely make you ski up to ten times better* and is a worthy successor to all the other skis that you bought for a small fortune, used for a week and then got disappointed with.
See you next year!
*Up to of course includes the number 0.
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You know it makes sense.
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| thirty06 wrote: |
| The new Rosalomostar2 Atomic Mutant Death Slaughter Lite |
What length do you think is best for me? They sound awesome though I might go for the Heavy Metal version rather the Lite for increased power apparently they go up to 11 on the performance scale.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 1-11-10 12:55; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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slikedges, are you in Tux now? Have you tried Sports Nenner at the lift base, they have a good selection of race skis, they carry Elan, Atomic, Stockli and other brands. You can take a different ski each day.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Fastman is right again... IMV skis come in the following three categories - best = free (you have been given them !), 2nd best = secondhand, OK = last years 
One of my best runs ever was on a pair of very old, straight, Salomon somethings, which I had taken out of a rubbish bin, mounted with previously enjoyed Riva telemark bindings.
What is worth doing is keeping the edges sharp and the bases waxed, and it is worth having the right tool for the job - so fat when the snow is soft, and thin(ner) when it isn't.....but stressing over this years latest model is almost entirely pointless..
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I fully agree with the idea that instruction is as valuable as new equipment, and that some people get a bit hung up with thinking about new stuff, but at the same time, someone labouring in old, poorly chosen equipment is simply not going to progress as fast as someone who is in new, well fitting boots, on skis that are appropriate for the skiing they are wanting to do. I can't imagine keeping a pair of boots for 8 seasons either, you must have at least put new liners in there?
Also, if you want to make a point about shaped skis, perhaps use a photo of tracks that have a clean little toe edge initiation, rather than the smeared one you used
Oh, and hello snowheads, I think this may be my first post since I signed up in 07!
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| Megamum wrote: |
FastMan, having gone to more advanced and stiffer skis last year, struggled and finally succeeded with them, (although it cost me a few days expensive skiing) I do really think they improved my technique. ,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Does this surprise you as it is contrary to the gist of your article? |
Hi Megamum, thanks for jumping in with your experiences. Certainly, struggling to adapt to new equipment can require the adoption of new methods of operating them. No, that does not surprise me at all.
The question is, how far does that actually take your skiing skills, and once the adaption has been made, then what? New skis litter the slopes every season, but old skill deficits endure. My coach's eye bears witness to that, and I'm sure most of the readers here notice it too. Only by pursuing some form of training and skill building will the bulk of the recreational skiing public who perpetually reside on the dreaded intermediate plateau ever be able to escape its clutches. Once they do, they'll be able to make those old soft skis of yours dance, if they had the whim.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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After seeing all the new stuff at the ski show on Saturday, I've been drawn to seek out the ski reviews on the web.
Should I feel guilty?
adrian
ps. Where can I find more info on these?... Rosalomostar2's new Atomic Mutant Death Slaughter Lite. They sound perfect.
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| jimmer wrote: |
I fully agree with the idea that instruction is as valuable as new equipment, and that some people get a bit hung up with thinking about new stuff, but at the same time, someone labouring in old, poorly chosen equipment is simply not going to progress as fast as someone who is in new, well fitting boots, on skis that are appropriate for the skiing they are wanting to do. I can't imagine keeping a pair of boots for 8 seasons either, you must have at least put new liners in there?
Also, if you want to make a point about shaped skis, perhaps use a photo of tracks that have a clean little toe edge initiation, rather than the smeared one you used
Oh, and hello snowheads, I think this may be my first post since I signed up in 07! |
Good point, jimmer, about boots. Poor fitting and/or aligned boots won't make improving impossible, but it will certainly add unnecessary challenge. Again, though, boots are an area where skiers can fall victim to marketing hype. Good fit and function is very individual specific. No single model will provide a good fit for all. Chasing the media claims of great performance can lead people astray, longing for models unsuited to their individual foot. Better to just put your feet in your boot fitters hands (if you have a good one), and let him decide which model is best for you. Forget about reading all the flowery evaluation reports from "experts" in the mega page advertisiing vehicles they call magazines. Between that, and the endless wall of boots you'll see at a ski shop, your head will be left spinning.
As to your comment about the smear in the inside ski track, that's constitutes a thread of its own. I'll save that for another time.
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Glad you agree about the boot element fastman, I am genuinely intrigued to know whether you have used the same pair for eight years though, I like to change mine every year and a half or so.
I look forward to the thread on clean railroad tracks
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Great Megamum, ! Best of luck with your continued progress.
That ski shop is here in Colorado. It's not even their main store, which has an even bigger selection.
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| jimmer wrote: |
| Glad you agree about the boot element fastman, I am genuinely intrigued to know whether you have used the same pair for eight years though, I like to change mine every year and a half or so |
Yep, sure have. I'm debating getting a new set of liners for them this season, though. Getting pretty ripe, and starting to wear through. Dang, you'd think they should last longer than that!
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FAQ
