 Poster: A snowHead
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head-scratchy conundrum many folks on this forum have mulled over -how to get a good fit in the right sorta boot? So if you get a great fit but its in a higher than wanted flex, you can cut into the shell, right? The salomon ive looked at Instinct CS (in a 23.5) has dotted lines where you are supposed to do it if you need to so, its an "official option" suggested by salomon pressumably if they print it in their boots. So its a 90 flex - how much would it reduce the flex if you did the shell trim? Also looked at the even raceier Nordica Doberman, but thats a flex 100 and expect its too much of a change needed. Id ask Salomon but they havent a contact on their website and the ski shop guy waffled. Any advice from boot expert?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The instincts aren't really a stiff boot anyway... if your struggling to flex them maybe worth a shell check and make sure your getting the right size, if the boot is too big you will struggle to flex it!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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bitoffluff, be very careful, modifying the shell can alter the flex but can also increase the range of flex, which means that the angle to which your boot will pivot at the ankle changes. This can result in injury, your boot should have a range of flex less than your ankle, it will then catch you when you hop over a roller and fall forwards. If the range is greater and you fall forwards with any force you will damage/break your Achilles tendon. The shop guy waffling might just be him trying to avoid being sued.
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Also, you'll have Smallgoalkeeper on here soon muttering about ruining the return to centre or some such stuff.
Keep looking for a good fitting boot with the correct flex.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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bitoffluff,
If 'normal' alpine boots are generally too stiff for you then maybe touring boots (with an alpine sole) would suit you better. They may even fit you better too.
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It may be that its not the boots that are too stiff but your ankles, CEM has some exercises on his web site, its also possible to shim up your heel in the boot to create not true forward flex, but a more forward start point- works for me.
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| Quote: |
It may be that its not the boots that are too stiff but your ankles, CEM has some exercises on his web site, its also possible to shim up your heel in the boot to create not true forward flex, but a more forward start point- works for me.
Good point, if you have a tight achilles you may struggle to flex the boot, you need 10 degrees of dorsiflexion to get a boot flexing well. Do you ever get pain in your calf when skiing?
Increasing the ramp angle may sort it. However it will raise the instep and that may cause fit issues on an Instinct boot
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oops, sorry not too good at this quoting thing
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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bitoffluff, I have Salomon Instinct CS and it's not a stiff boot. The flex is quite progressive, supportive not stiff IME over 40+ days. I was fitted out by CEM and use Zipfit liners.
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Echoing some of the above.
Don't do this yourself, take it to someone who knows what they are doing.
If done properly then it is fine to take a V out of the back and that will help with flex, but it really depends on you as that boot isn't stiff anyway and you shouldn't struggle to stretch it.
Take your insoles out of your boots, if you don't have decent ones that's your 1st point of call.
Then stand on them with feet shoulder width apart and flex.
Before your heels leave the floor you shoudl easily be able to flex over your toes.
If this is difficult then then you need to get stretching those calves and hammys!
Secondly, place your foot in the shell of your boot without the liner, slide the toes to the front of the plastic and take a look down the back. If you have more than 20mm of space then your boots are too big and you will always struggle to flex them. If this is the case, either taken them back to whoever sold them to you or sell them on ebay and see soemone else.
Hope that kinda helps! 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| snowbunny wrote: |
| bitoffluff, I have Salomon Instinct CS and it's not a stiff boot. The flex is quite progressive, supportive not stiff IME over 40+ days. I was fitted out by CEM and use Zipfit liners. |
can i be really rude and ask what weight you are. I suspect that weight is a factor in how stiff a boot feels although in the range of flexes boots are made in, your right 90 isnt that huge. Im only 52kg, maybe as someone once said i need to eat more pies 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Jimmythefoot wrote: |
Echoing some of the above.
Don't do this yourself, take it to someone who knows what they are doing.
If done properly then it is fine to take a V out of the back and that will help with flex, but it really depends on you as that boot isn't stiff anyway and you shouldn't struggle to stretch it.
Take your insoles out of your boots, if you don't have decent ones that's your 1st point of call.
Then stand on them with feet shoulder width apart and flex.
Before your heels leave the floor you shoudl easily be able to flex over your toes.
If this is difficult then then you need to get stretching those calves and hammys!
Secondly, place your foot in the shell of your boot without the liner, slide the toes to the front of the plastic and take a look down the back. If you have more than 20mm of space then your boots are too big and you will always struggle to flex them. If this is the case, either taken them back to whoever sold them to you or sell them on ebay and see soemone else.
Hope that kinda helps! |
wouldnt dream of doing it myself you ll be glad to know. SIzewise - the whole reason i am looking at this boots with a bit more flex than i want is that i cant find a lower flex with a low enough instep height in a 23, and its to replace a boot that was sold to me that was the wrong shape and became too sloppy when liner packed out, so yeah, gona be really careful about fit this time round rather than just ebing sold a boot
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| jbob wrote: |
| It may be that its not the boots that are too stiff but your ankles, CEM has some exercises on his web site, its also possible to shim up your heel in the boot to create not true forward flex, but a more forward start point- works for me. |
i ll check out CEMs exercising if i can track them down, but sadly dont tink its the flexibility as im seeing a physio about a back problem and she was commenting i seemed to be pretty flexible hamstringwise, but i ll work on my ankles before the season, defo, thanks for the tip
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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just spoke to someone in another ski shop and they reckoned can change a 130 to a 90, but then says doing the salomon-suggested cut out would reduce 90 to about 80 and not affect other aspects of performance. Anyone have any idea if that sound slike it might make sense?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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bitoffluff, Have you tried on each of these boots to see what the listed flex feels like ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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bitoffluff, srsly, a 90 flex is really just about the minimum you need to ski properly. Are you sure something else isn't going on? I know you're a (self confessed) lightweight, but still...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rjs wrote: |
| bitoffluff, Have you tried on each of these boots to see what the listed flex feels like ? |
can you actually tell at room temperature the flex feel in real conditions? Guess im just thinking along flex lines as my touring boots bizzarely allow me to ski better, i dont feel thrown around so much and have to fight to stay on the front, than in 80 flex alpine boots. So maybe im putting 2 and 2 together to make 5 and there is actually a completely different reason
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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bitoffluff, sounds like a completely different reason to me.
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don't forget that flex index's are not uniformed... not even between styles in brands let alone different brands. it really is just a point of reference!
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don't forget that flex index's are not uniformed... not even between styles in brands let alone different brands. it really is just a point of reference!
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dansmith, Yes they are. Sorry.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, are you trying to say that all brands are now using the same flex index?? or just within the brand?
yes i know the brand within there ranges are going to be using the same testing but if you take 2 boots from say salomon, say quest 12 and impact 10 there flex is hugely different yet both rated 120, and there are so many factors that change the flex of the boot (temp, how tight the boot is etc etc) I really don't see how the numbers really mean much at all.
I'm not looking for an argument but trying to say that flex ratings should be taken with a pinch of salt and there is no better way to test the boots flex than getting it on and seeing if you can get the right amount of movement in it.
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dansmith,
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all brands are now using the same flex index
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That's what he's saying.
Not from where I'm sitting, Quests before their uncomfortable demise were 120s, Impact 10's were 110. The numbers are (should be) from measurements made at the same temp, etc.
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there is no better way to test the boots (snip) than getting it on
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Very, very true.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I agree with dansmith, a 100 flex model from one brand will not necessarily feel the same flex as one from another.
Having said that, I would be pleased to be proved wrong and learn that in the spirit of teutonic efficiency the Germans created a standard flex rating as part of the project to create the din scale.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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dansmith, There is a standard flex test taking in account of all the factors you have mentioned. The test is the same with all manufacturers across their entire ranges. The exceptios are Lange, however their test is the same, just a minor difference, so for the sake of this arguement (sorry debate) they do the same test. Boots with walk systems (ie Quest) have a slightly different tests but are designed to be comparable to help the public. So i can see there being differences.
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You know it makes sense.
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Please remember that you are trying boots with; different volumes, therefore tighten them differently, at different temperatures from that which the test is done with different plactics and shore ratings. The net result is boots that in shops can feel very different, despite the stated flex rating being correct at the parameters set at the test.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Fair enough I never knew that they finally standardised the testing for the rating, Still hard to believe that some boots came out with a similar rating to each other when they couldn't feel more different!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I would go and colin at solutions 4 feet in Bicester!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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dansmith, The design and development of a ski boot is very scientific and very expensive with regards to the return on investement, they really don't go to all that expense and effort then just "Think of a Number" and stick it on. The points i've outlined above should help you understand why 2 boots of say 130kn flewx will feel very different at room temperature. Colour is also a factor here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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dansmith, fair point, I was looking elsewhere.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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under a new name, 2 Screws is the only Difference.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I find all my screws make a huge difference
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| .... srsly, a 90 flex is really just about the minimum you need to ski properly. |
How true is that?
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Mosha Marc, Pretty spot on, although i reckon more like 100kn. Anthing below is just a poor quality product served at your low expectational needs.
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back to the original point, if i was to soften a boot i don't want to be cutting a V in the back of it...even if salomon give nice dotted lines...that rear section of the cuff is a leaf spring, it gives the boot rebound, to soten a boot (if it needs to be softened) we cut down the sides of the clog and remove material from the lower front straps of the cuff, depending on how much difference we want to make
i should add that if a boot is cut in this way the edges of the cuts need to be smoothed out to get rid of any overcutting which could cause a split in the shell
all these people out there with dead salomon X waves as the carbon (sorry looky like carbon) bar had been cut should be able to testify that that was a rebound device not a stiffener
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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CEM,
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all these people out there with dead salomon X waves as the carbon (sorry looky like carbon) bar had been cut should be able to testify that that was a rebound device not a stiffener
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You've done this plenty of times no, before that is you were told about destroying boot rebound that is?????
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
CEM,
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all these people out there with dead salomon X waves as the carbon (sorry looky like carbon) bar had been cut should be able to testify that that was a rebound device not a stiffener
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You've done this plenty of times no, before that is you were told about destroying boot rebound that is????? |
i have never ever cut the carbon band on the back of an x wave
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