 Poster: A snowHead
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Ok, so well there are many shops selling ski boots and few 'Fitting' ski boots how can this massive gap be bridged?
While i'm confident that i can touch and look at your foot and recommend a boot that fits, why should i look at photos and answer questions about the subject for free. We can't holt consumer trends, but many seem to think and ask us to juggle information, for free to enable you to by and compare product elsewhere. Why would be progress and consider things to such a degree to have people 'touch us up' for answers ony to alow you to put money in the pockets of less dedicated people? Our equipment and time must have some value, but as of this winter, my inbox is full of such requests on a daily basis. What can i do to help you understand this is not something i can, a) afford to do, b) can be bothered to do, c) need to do.
Shops are changing (awesome) and our job is a growth industy. Whilst i profess to see around 500 pairs of feet per year, nearly 10,000 pairs in total, i'm way short of definitive answers until that figure becomes closer to 7billion.
What can I do or say that will make people see this as a genuine trade. How many of you ring up a resturant and ask the chef for a recipe so as you can then attempt this at home for yourselves?
Ok, I get the point that a meal in a good resturant costs 30 euros, instead of 600, but i'm still struggling to understand.
I reckon, today if you sent me 6 photos of your feet with mm acurate measurements i could get pretty close, for say 50 euros, could i set this up as a service????
I meet very enthusiastic bootfitters from all over the world each month, I am of course delighted, but the fact remains the same, touch and feel are our main tools. Listening to your foot go into a boot is one of my best indications of what fits. So how do you want it to work? Boots cost at fabrication £xyz so therefore how can i, until they find a better process, reduce my costs to what people seem to believe is good value.
We're super busy, so it's not such an issue, but Forums and web based queries make me question the process.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I find it very odd that folk would send photos of their feet and expect free advice 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, let me know if you want to go for a trail run. Photos of feet waiting to go 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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scotia, Too late dude, a few of you have been there before.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, It's the way of the World ( and you know it). Even in the Bricks-and -Mortar world it was always true of 'Commodities' .... Window - Shop then then find the cheapest
The difference being that 'Bootfitting' isnt a commodity its a skilled service ( someone must have told ME that !!) whilst the boot is the commodity .... if the 'service' can be sold over t'internet then go for it!
I'm doubtful .. as the emails are probably those who suspect there is value in the service but dont want to pay for it. Have you ever 'ripped' any music off the WWW? Same Thing just Different!
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Agenterre, No, i have no music, ears or anything that brings your argument into perspective, i am however looking foward to bootfitting concerts with 60,000 paying spectators in a stadium near you soon.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Boot-fitting with a cast of 1 and 2 smelly slabs. Has to be a sell-out of 60,000+ --- if only to the Thirty-Something Ladies of this parish  ( that was of course BEFORE you declared yourself well-and-truly hitched!)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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How much extra business, if any, do you think you have gained by people seeing you offer competent advice on this forum and then being drawn to your shop?
I, for example, doubt I would have visited Colin without seeing he knew his stuff on here.
So you lose a few to free loaders, is that offset by the new business?
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Agenterre, Reckon i can manage it again. I'm sure Sophie would be more than happy.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Just for you mate...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
SMALLZOOKEEPER, Just for you mate...
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Arrghh .. one for me ..
Amputate
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tiffin, No question you are right, given the few years i've been around these parts, I wish only to point out a stronger trend for these questions. I was indead here a earlier than said CEM to preaach the need for such a service in general and doubt for my efforts see as many SH's as he does on the back of it. Unless you all come to Cham that is, in which case CEM needs his legs taking out.
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You know it makes sense.
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Agenterre, Last time i saw something like taht was in Modena, Italy, served with Sage and butter, feck, that's where i should be...................
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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My foot was normal until I went to Cham
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Poster: A snowHead
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Offset the balance, only part of you that was.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think that most people resist paying out a perceived large amount of cash for fitting until they ski enough to realise that their boots are limiting technique development.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What sort of queries do you get?
Is it stuff like this is my foot what boot do you recommend? Because fair nuff that's a bit much.
Or is it this is my foot what do you recommend I do to get comfy boots.
I might go into a shop to handle a bit of kit and then later buy it on the internet, but I wouldn't take up someone's time. If I do find myself asking question and getting good service then I am likely to buy from the shop. Once you factor in shipping and the time spent doing your own research you might as well buy it whilst you there anyway.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Is it stuff like this is my foot what boot do you recommend?
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Yes more or less that, at least after a couple of emails.
As I say, the point I wish to make is to get boots fitted. If I could better explain this than I do, then I'm asking for help. If I do get this point across, then i'm prepared to modify the approach, but given that the sole motivation of those that ask for this information is to save money then I can see myself and others going out of buisness. I'm also certain that within 5 years the fitting process will have been fine tuned (domesticated to an acceptable standard.) by the manufacturers so my job becomes obsolete, so am for sure looking for ways to keep a business going. Sure footbeds will maybe always need our hands, but medicine could provide research against the use of orthotics, at least for the duration of my life that is.
No bother for a few years, but I want to manage a soccer team and direct a movie at some point.
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barry, Yes the point behind the thread i guess. In the first instance, my inclusion on this site was to show the need and benifits of bootfitting and the use of larger skis. 5 years late and the request for information is huge, maybe due to my own input, if i were to be so bold as to admit it's usefulness. I'm happy as to continue to offer input and opinion, but as the line blurs further and deeper, i'm intreaged by the market's needs. It's like that we keep afloat no? It's more than certain some have made a success of their businesses on the back of such posts.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I think you have a point, but to be honest I am astonished at folks sending you personal emails asking for bootfitting advice and then using that to buy elsewhere. It's one thing to find the time and make a decision to answer someones question in public on a forum - you can easily decide not to, but you are being pinned down with a personal message and to my mind its not on - I'd stop being Mr Nice guy, or as you suggest start charging for the advice. Mind you I don't think the boot fitters are alone, if you are bothered by personal emails I wonder if the instructors and other experts that make themselves known run into the same problem?
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Megamum, Honestly not shocked or bothered, just want to continue at the cutting edge, if i can say we are. I spend alot, a fair bit of time taliking about the market with the people that make the stuff we use. We are all concerned, to a point of at least, how we adapt. For example, the best way to sell ski these days is on the net, you have got to be a bit too rich or stupid to buy in a store these days with the amount of info available on the net. This means, each brand will move towards direct selling and pro shops (adverts for want of a better explanation.). This makes more money for them but means that there is no underwritten purchases, so lack of bank loans and jeoparising production, bringing costs back up.
So, I guess we're not going to stop the few that will contact us, thinking they're the first and rite smart to try and tease boot choices out of us. To be honest, i'm happy if they do, from a sales point of view, that said some people will get it wrong, and well it won't be their fault will it. So i guess we're trying to protect more our image and that of the manufacturs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I didn't mean to sound like a 6-toed, giant bunioned pain in the hole but the way we're all doing business has changed dramatically. You've probably earned enough credibility on here to test out those who've availed of your advice by asking them to at least sign up for a mailshot or some kind of contact. A retention or even attraction campaign need not cost much these days. There are still plenty out there who value brand/service/aftercare loyalty, we just need to work a bit differently to get them. You or your industry are not alone!
Start from knowing your current customers and potential untapped opportunities (age, repeat, frequency, location, walk-in v virtual etc) - all of which you undoubtedly already know pretty well. It's pretty straightforward to build a customer database (beyond a bog standard mailing list) on that basis then start seeing what sticks in terms of campaigns. Whilst all this is happening you gotta keep a firm eye on the technology - don't be a kodak - digital replacing film almost literally overnight (can you be the one forcing the replacement?)
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| SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
| I reckon, today if you sent me 6 photos of your feet with mm acurate measurements i could get pretty close, for say 50 euros, could i set this up as a service???? |
Sounds like a plan to me. 50 euro may be a bit steep in current exchange rates, but try it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Mosha Marc, Move
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I do. Just as fast as I can
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was talking to my mate about this kind of thing at the weekend... he owns a running business who specialize in getting people properly fitted for running shoes.
I'll send you a pm.
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You know it makes sense.
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| shoogly wrote: |
was talking to my mate about this kind of thing at the weekend... he owns a running business who specialize in getting people properly fitted for running shoes.
I'll send you a pm with a picture of my feet. |
there you go...fixed it for you 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As someone for whom it is almost impossible to get to your workplace, but would still like good advice, I am sure a payment option would be a great idea.
What about a form of internet recommendations based on your expertise, and then ordering boots through said website as a business oppertunity?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Offer a refund of any email/telephone consultancy charges if the customer comes to you to purchase the boots.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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the biggest problem is you get your internet advice from your pictures, stats etc and you go and buy a boot.... what if it is wrong...who gets the blame?? is this a way of buyers taking less responsibility for their purchases
there was a system like this around a while back.... Foot Image Technology run by compufit in Bend, Oregen they went out of business probably as they couldn't survive on $50 a time to tell people what boots to buy as not enough people were interested
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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pretty sure i had a cham3s catalogue where they claimed you could draw round your foot in pencil on graph paper, send it to them and they'd do the rest!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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50 euros is fine if you get it absolutely bang on, but what if you don't? Can I have my money back?
If I can send you 5 photos with millimetre precise measurements following simple instructions, which I can, and you can tell me what boots to order off the internet, then I will pay for that. For starters, you'll save me £20 in petrol getting to a ski shop I actually trust, plus I won't have to pay top dollar prices just to find a boot I like. Of course, I have by trial and error found a boot that fits, and is unlikely to need replacing for the next 3 years.
Unfortunately for you perhaps, is that the bigger retailers are working this out, and the smaller retailers certainly are. We recently found the boots we wanted, that fitted correctly, carefully measured and tweaked for us, and the shop selling them was the cheapest on the internet by a mile.
I think you also have to accept the reality that 90% of the market simply doesn't feel the need for whatever boot fitters do right now. They walk into Snow & Rock, Ellis Brigham or get on ebay, buy boots that are a size or two too large, and either never notice the difference or live in pain for days on end. They won't pay another 50 euros for a service they don't think they need, and in many cases they actually don't need.
You are selling a specialised service in a small market. Keep providing advice, assistance and support, and the small number of customers in that market will continue to buy your specialised service. If you are lucky and work hard, keep those customers happy, you might get some of their friends and family to choose the same thing. Or they might not.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, does you being madly busy mean I will need an appointment?
And what did the Atomic rep think of having an orange pair made just for me?
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 19-10-10 14:38; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| CEM wrote: |
| .... what if it is wrong...who gets the blame?? |
What you need is someone to sort out your T&C's , that way the punter is to blame if they can't get their back bottom into your shop.
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| Mosha Marc wrote: |
| CEM wrote: |
| .... what if it is wrong...who gets the blame?? |
What you need is someone to sort out your T&C's , that way the punter is to blame if they can't get their back bottom into your shop. |
I'd be pulling out statutory rights, very few Ts & Cs that can get around that. The service offered either was or wasn't fit for purpose. If the boots that are reccomended to me don't fit, I have not received that service which I have paid for. Boo. Hoo. Money back please.
The only downside if you do something like this is that there will always be some young upstart who will spoil it for you for free online. They'll offer the same advice for no money at all, or will help someone to go and buy their boots at a local retailer using your tricks of the trade for nothing.
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| Monium wrote: |
| I'd be pulling out statutory rights. |
You're buying an opinion; not a product.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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kitenski, Tis already done.
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FAQ
) forum without at least some form of commercial strategy in terms of drawing the line between promotion/business attraction and giving it away!! If you're willing to answer then you're willing to answer, if you're not you're not, but you cant answer happily and without restriction on one thread and complain about it on another - you need to figure out where you're comfortable in drawing the line in promoting your wider industry versus your own bucket
