 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi,
My wife and I are planning a trip to the Alps. I ski patrol in the Cascades and she is a very strong skier. We both are solid in the BC , and prefer touring out of resorts as long as it doesn't involve glaciers and climbing gear.
I'd like to ski Chamonix, La Grave, Val Thorens but we also don't want to go somewhere that requires roping up and dealing with high hazards. Is this a reasonable expectation or should we go to Switzerland or Austria?
We have 3 or 4 weeks planned for January and have no experience skiing over there and would like to see a variety of places. Any ideas?
Thank you,
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I beleive Cham and La Grave are glaciated? If you want epic offpiste without glaciers, try St Anton in Austria. I guess Cham/La Grave/St Anton and Verbier (Switzerland) are probably the most renowned resorts in the Alps for offpiste, a week in each would be a pretty ace trip!! February or March would probably be better snow-wise though.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sun 17-10-10 15:41; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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brandon99, Welcome to SnowHeads 
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brandon99, welcome to Snowheads. brandon99. I can't help you, as I don't do that sort of skiing, but there are plenty of people here who do. Might be worth changing the title of your thread to indicate you're looking for back country skiing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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brandon99, welcome, welcome.BobinCH, speaks wisely. You don't need to hit glaciated terrain, plenty of other wtuff well worth doing.
Chamonix base well central for lots of stuff, easy drive to Verbier, etc. You lucky devils.
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brandon99, oh, and you will do us a trip report, won't you? Sounds like fun.
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brandon99, and welcome to big mountain skiing you're gonna love it! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks for all the friendly information! Wow this is a great forum. It sounds like the best option is renting a flat in Chamonix and hitting the other resorts from there. And I think we're pushing the trip out until Feb now for warmer temps and more snow. Any recommendations on lodging in Chamonix?
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| Quote: |
warmer temps and more snow
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and bigger crowds - but I guess you'll be getting away from them!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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brandon99 - sounds like some trip, dont know what your budget is looking like but if your budget will do it I recommend Hotel L'Oustalet in Cham(very near Aguille cable station, Valee Blanche etc) Also strongly suggest you get to Verbier (consider staying in haute Nendaz, great routes round there without the crowds also excellent links into 4 Valleys), great little place called Les Etagnes, fab food and great host. Plus no trip to Europe without getting to St Anton and Stuben, Lech and Zurs, best snow in the Alps IMO. Plus dont forget Sainte Foy, Le Monal Hotel, mega off-piste and endless opportunities.
Just a word of caution - its 1/2 term mid February and it can get VERY busy in resort and on the roads.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I ski mostly off piste but the majority of the time with guides, which is usual for all but a few who feel they are avalanche experts over here. We do, however, also ski without a guide, most usually on routes we have been before and are reasonably confident about the avalanche risk on those slopes. (When I was in Jackson Hole two years ago we did go several routes into Granite Canyon without a guide since one of our group knew it well).
I am not a proper tourer (going from hut to hut with most of the day spent skinning) - I just ski from lifts with perhaps, when necessary, a half hour or hour climb. There is a huge amount of this type of skiing in the Alps, most of it returning you to the resort (or another linked resort) and some requiring a bus or taxi or train ride back. You said "touring", but which type of holiday are you actually looking for?
How were you planning to find good routes if you don't go with guides, or are you interested in some skiing with guides? I mean proper UIAGM Guides des Hautes Montagnes who go through a long training and apprenticeship (they are the only people allowed to guide on glaciers). I am sure some people can help with that (and I can give you a few names). To give you an example - our Guide for Feb 2011 in La Grave charges €320 Euros per day for up to 4 clients plus €20 for each extra one. Most don't like to take more than 6 (and for very extreme routes where a fall in some places might be fatal will prefer only 3). At some resorts there are also guiding companies with several guides who put people of similar standard in groups to do off-piste.
There are a number of useful off-piste guide books describing good off piste (hors pistes) routes in particular areas - the French ones mostly printed by Editions Vamos (for example the Chamonix Valley or Les 3 Vallees or Val d'Isere / Tignes) and the only Italian one I have by Idee Vertical Edizioni (the Monte Rosa area including Alagna). These are dual language French / English or Italian / English. The Austrian one I have (for the Arlberg area (St Anton etc) you can get from www.outdoor-adventures.at in an English language version. Normally you can get all of these from shops in the resorts and they also need you to buy the local 1:25,000 map(s) to go with them. French maps (with contours every 10 metres) are much better than Italian ones (20 or 25 metres, I forget which).
As you may be aware there is an avalanche risk scale (1-4) and you can find out the danger level at the resort (they fly different flags for different conditions). However these are just an average and it is better, if you can, to visit the guides' hut for a chat or talk to pisteurs.
If you ski Chamonix it is worth skinning over to the Italian side (or, more usually, taking a bus or taxi through the Mont Blanc tunnel) to ski the Helbronner (Italian side of Mont Blanc) from very close to Courmayeur. It is South facing so best when there is new snow. You can ski home by a version of the Vallee Blanche. Courmayeur is also worth a day visit with some long off-piste routes. The Italian resort often has quite different snow conditions to the Chamonix valley.
If you go to La Grave I would suggest a guide for much of the time. Except for the 2 or 3 main routes which get heavily skied there are dozens of couloirs (gullies), some too hard for me, some going most of the height of the mountain (2,000 metres). It is easy to find yourself at the edge of a cliff if you don't know where you are going but it is a really wonderful place. From there you can go off to ski Alp d'Huez which also has lots of off routes far from any trail, and perhaps Serre Chevalier.
If you are in La Grave Feb 12-19th when I am there with my friends we must meet for a drink.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 19-10-10 15:26; edited 5 times in total
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if you are going in Feb, La Grave could be a better option because it does not get so affected by the holidays at that time of year. march might be an even better option if you have that flexibility - deeper snowpack, longer days and still cold enough for some powder.
if you were to spend some time in LG, you would not have a problem meeting people to show you around and help you with your rope skills  it's a small place and IME has a really friendly ski bum scene so pretty easy to get into the swing of the place. if you go there in January, that will be even more the case.
that said, Chamonix and Verbier are pretty special places so you'll have a lot of fun by following BobinCH's advice
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You know it makes sense.
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3-4 weeks, this could be such a great holiday.
A lot of good advice above already. snowball makes a good point about guides - there are huge possibilities that can be accessed if you have someone to show them to you.
You can't go wrong with selecting 2 or 3 of Chamonix, La Grave, Verbier, St Anton, Espace Killy (Val d'Isere / Tignes), limited of course by funds. For mid Feb - early March (ie school holiday time) in France, La Grave is the best option I guess, not too many families there so less busy. I'd like to say "road trip!" but financially and logistically it might make sense to keep to 1 or 2 areas maximum (eg. La Grave and Cham+Verbier, or St Anton + Cham / Verbier).
Good luck with the snow, and enjoy!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| brandon99 wrote: |
Hi,
My wife and I are planning a trip to the Alps. I ski patrol in the Cascades and she is a very strong skier. We both are solid in the BC , and prefer touring out of resorts as long as it doesn't involve glaciers and climbing gear. |
Welcome to Snowheads.
What intensisty of touring are you looking for. i.e. Are you looking to do side country (up to 1 hour skin / boot up), back country day trips or hut to hut touring? Do you want to do self-guided or hire a guide?
Just in case you didn't already know .....
In Europe there isn't really what you would call offpiste inbounds, very little is avy controlled and it's common practise (legal requirement in Italy) when going offpiste to have a transceiver, shovel and probe (many also have an inflating/ABS type rucksacks).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yes, of course, making friends with locals or ski bums is another alternative.
Parts of most resorts are glaciated but most skiing in most places is not. The main Argentierre face (Chamonix Valley), is partly glaciated but not very dangerously so (I'm not talking about the top lift). If you ski the famous Pas de Chevre, off the back of Argentierre, you really need to know where you can get through the cliff band near the bottom or you can get stranded above it.
Of course, even the main way down the Vallee Blanche is glacier - though you would do better to do one of the variants - the main way is fairly flat.
As you will have seen if you looked at lift maps, Chamonix is a valley with several ski areas, but there are regular, free shuttle buses.
At St Anton there is one tiny lift (the top of the Valluga) which you are only allowed up with a guide (or without skis for the view). It is the only ski access (off piste) to the Lech/Zurs ski area without taking a short bus ride. The top lift at Courmayeur which also only accesses off-piste, used to be the same but I discovered last time I was there that they don't enforce that any more.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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brandon99
If you will have use of a car, you could keep costs down for at least part of your trip by staying in valley towns in France or Switzerland (much cheaper for food, drink and accommodation), but still with easy access to loads of good skiing. For example:
France:
Stay in Moutiers and you can drive to:
- St Martin de Belleville (15 mins) for direct access to Les 3 Vallees, the biggest ski area on the planet with 400 miles of connected pistes (sorry trails ), 200+ lifts and amazing off piste.
- Bourg St Maurice (which is actually another town that you could stay in) - 25 mins from Moutiers - for access by funicular to Arc 1600 and the Paradiski area, which is another huge ski area linking Les Arcs and La Plagne. Great off piste.
- Valmorel (20 mins away). Often seen as a beginners/intermediates area but quite decent in scale, very picturesque village and off piste which doesn't get tracked out very quickly. Also linked to St Francois Longchamp (I think that's the name?), so quite a decent sized area.
- La Rosiere (45 mins away) - Big area, sorry don't know about the off piste, but linked to La Thuile in Italy for a cross-border ski experience.
Tignes/Val D'Isere - (45 mins) - Another of the French mega areas. Fantastic on and off piste. We've used guides at http://www.alpineexperience.com/ - very reasonably priced off piste trips operate on a group basis daily.
Ste Foye Tarentaise - (35 mins) - Haven't been there yet but has a fantastic reputation for off piste, despite its small size.
The Ibis Hotel in Moutiers can be booked here http://www.accorhotels.com/gb/united-kingdom/index.shtml and is very reasonably priced for France. It's fairly basic but clean and comfortable. We've also stayed in other Accorhotels - eg Sallanches (30 mins from Chamonix and with a lot of other areas (eg La Clusaz, Morzine, Flaine, Les Houches, Grand Bornand, Megeve) within similar driving time). Also, we once got a good deal in Accor's Mercure Hotel in the centre of Chamonix by paying for the whole booking well in advance.
Switzerland:Stay in Sion or Martigny (More Accor Hotels! And no I don't work for them or get commission, theyre just a fair standard and good value.) for easy drives to Zermatt, Saas Fee, the Portes du Soleil, Le Chable (direct access to Verbier by gondola from there) and the unheard of areas around Zinal (great off piste).
Do let us all know how you get on and where you end up skiing/staying. And have a fantastic trip!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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If you hire a car, La Petite Auberge on the edge of Bourg St Maurice (near loads of French resorts, though not Chamonix or La Grave) is really nice and also cheap (£70 per night for a room for 2 in 2008 when I was there last, including half board - dinner in the very good restaurant downstairs (run by someone else).
I wonder if brandon99 will be back to read all this stuff.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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brandon99, Welcome to Snowheads.
Would try to include the Portes du Soleil area if you can. Access from France or Switzerland.
Stay down by Lac Leman and access either way.
Cheaper accomodation in Tanninges would allow you to access the Grande Massif as well.
Have a great tour.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Brandon, my friends have a chalet in St Foy and they rent out the apartment underneath. PM me if of any interest.
Can't comment on the skiing yet!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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brandon99, If you are going to base yourself in one resort for four weeks or so, send a PM to the snowhead Marcellus as he specialises in long term stays and has been very helpful to me and other snowheads.
I'd also advise you to consider when you are going to make your decisions as many places offer discounted season tickets if bought soon - e.g. the "Mont blanc unlimited" season pass is normally 1300 euros but can be bought for 780 euros at the moment - I'm not sure when it goes up to full price
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| snowball wrote: |
| I wonder if brandon99 will be back to read all this stuff. |
You mean "when", not if?
It's only 8:30 in the Pacific northwest...
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abc, he hasn't been back since Monday, (his second post on Snowheads) ....
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ooops, I only read it today! 
Hope nothing bad happen to him.
He's a patroller, after all.
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Where's he gone? So much info here! Hope ur OK brandon99.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'm ok! Wow everyone is so helpful and friendly in this forum, which is very refreshing.
I've been very busy and need some time to digest all the helpful advice.
To answer a few questions we would hire a guide in the more extreme areas like Cham, but side country tours on 35 degree open slopes or glades is well within our comfort level. We both use AT bindings and pack our skins with us at all times. That said I'm overwhelmed at a starting point,
For cost purposes it makes more sense to rent a place starting early feb for 3 weeks, and I think Cham or Verbier would be a good base. Or two weeks in this area with the final week in St. Anton.
Heck lets face it 3 weeks just won't be enough time, which means well just have to go back!! thanks again. Brandon
PS, cascades are forecasted to get snow this weekend!!!!!!!!!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
As you may be aware there is an avalanche risk scale (1-4)
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snowball, the scale is actually 1-5. Further info found here http://www.avalanches.org/basics/degree-of-hazard/
For those interested it is always worth remembering the avalanche hazard flag colours:
Yellow flag= low risk of avalanche (level 1-2)
Checked black & yellow flag= high risk of avalanche (level 3-4)
Black flag= very high risk of avalanche (level 5)
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You know it makes sense.
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| juliad wrote: |
snowball, the scale is actually 1-5. Further info found here http://www.avalanches.org/basics/degree-of-hazard/
For those interested it is always worth remembering the avalanche hazard flag colours:
Yellow flag= low risk of avalanche (level 1-2)
Checked black & yellow flag= high risk of avalanche (level 3-4)
Black flag= very high risk of avalanche (level 5) |
I would imagine that like most experienced skiiers, Snowball would not be out at risk level 5 hence didn't consider it 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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nbt, I wasn't having a dig at him personally, just wanted to post up the correct info for those who are not as experienced in all things off piste who might be reading the thread...apologies if it came across that way.
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Poster: A snowHead
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juliad, fair point and yes, one worth making
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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juliad, yes, and not taken as a dig - it was just a careless mistake and I failed to check over my post
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'm sure the OP, self-professed as "solid in the BC", are well versed in avi risk and its mitigation. So I don't believe we need to reiterate the basic.
What's more useful, is probably highlight any differences between avi danger in Europe vs in N. America, from those who regularly ski back country of both continents.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The avy advice is nice, but not what I"m after here. We understand the rating systems, have been educated in avy classes, worked in the avy industry, bla bla bla.
More interested in finding a place to base out of that will fullfill piste and backcountry skiing. Not backcountry ski mountaineering, as it looks to be in areas such as Cham and LaGrave.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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brandon99, Assuming you want to keep budget down have a look at Le Chable for fast, easy access to Verbier & Bruson. Lots of great lift served off piste terrain as well as touring options. There are some threads on here about Le Chable accommodation and RPF and CSki stayed there last season.
If touring is your priority I would seriously consider delaying your trip to mid March. This is when the main ski touring season starts in Europe and the superb huts open allowing overnight or multiple day tours such as the Haute Route. From what you have written I would guess this will be right up your street.
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