 Poster: A snowHead
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I thought I'd ask on here before I braved Epic, anyone got any experience with off-season training for racers/for specific ski fitness? I've started strength training over the last month or so but just wondering if anyone's got any specific ideas for training.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DaveC, do you really need to prioritis strength training at the level you will be racing? I would think cardio, weight loss, stretching and flexibilty would be better. A fitness coach who i had a day with a while back summed upped fitness for ski instructors should be "to make yourself indestructible as possible"
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skimottaret, Racing does need strength training.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rjs, for sure, but for a newbie to racing training it wouldnt be my top priority and i would spend time on the other things i mentioned first...
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skimottaret, free weight training focusing on squats improves core strength, decreases body fat% (as a function of lean body mass increasing as well as bf decreasing), and builds power and endurance in the whole posterial chain (read as lower body/back). It'll also increase flexibility (which is the same as stretching). I only asked about training for racers because it's not like a normal "program for fitness for your week's holiday" applies so much as a racer's program does to me. Racers don't stop between seasons either, and I assume that level of fitness is the optimum for a skier.
Cardio training is the bit I'm not so sure about, especially in the sense that most cardio gets you good at doing the specific cardio excercise. Not really got the money to invest in one of those daft ski machine thingies...
*edit*, basically, I'm pretty sure that racers can ski pow/bumps all day more efficiently than I can - I'm not training specifically for racing, which I'm generally poor at and clueless about. Racing specifically will benefit from actually doing some...
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DaveC, One way that I combine cardio with some strength work is to avoid touching the handlebars on the exercise bike.
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my comments are probably the jaundiced view of an old guy with little testosterone still flowing..  I did some squat training last year and was seeing some improvements but felt it was pretty tough on the knees... but for a younger guy is a great all round exercise, but me personally i always have focused on stretching and flexibility even as a youth
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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You need cardio in there too (strength, cardio, core and flexibility). Helps with endurance and recovery which are vital. All you need are a pair of running shoes and a watch. If running is not your thing then what about biking?
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DaveC, don´t also forget to add basic balance exercises too, petzi ball, slack line, unicycle, these all help , we do about 40-50 mins after each training session.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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About this time of year I start thinking I need to put together a program for myself for my winter skiing. I normally ski for about 4-5 weeks so a keen 'holiday-er' as it were. A bit of cardio, a bit of strength building, some balance and flexibilty work. Anyone got any good links?
Thought about paying for a few personal trainer sessions at my gym but not one of the trainers skis or boards. Not that they have to - but it'd certainly seem more relevant.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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kooky, yep balance work is important and the thing that I've not really bothered with in the past as my focus has been elsewhere. I've never done much with agility and coordination stuff before but can see why this needs to be developed and improved for racing.
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I'm doing pilates at the moment, took it up a couple of months ago. Predominantly to try and minimise the alignment issues I have with my hips / knees, but pilates of course works the entire body - core, strength, flexibility etc. Will be itneresting to see if there's a benefit next time I ski.
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You know it makes sense.
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beanie1, pilates is fantastic as an additional core exercise, i am sure you will see a difference. Marco Büchel used to do a bit of ballet  and yoga too!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I do quite a bit of mountain biking in the summer and find it excellent for ski fitness.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bacon and Beer - got to keep it balanced. (advice from ex-racer)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I had a few sessions with a personal trainer this year and his skiing-specific programme was based around core strength and balance. His argument was that most reasonably fit people have sufficient limb strength, but if your balance is poor or your core muscles aren't strong enough to maintain proper posture you'll tire more quickly and fall more often.
He was right. Although I've often worked on leg strength before skiing, my stability at speed and endurance over difficult terrain were dramatically improved. I'd suggest some serious focus on balance ball and balance disc exercises.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I was in Saas Fee a couple of weeks ago and plenty of the senior and junior national teams were there skiing and land training.
In one of the gyms they had Didier Cuche's training plan...Mainly focussed on circuit training, specifically weight bearing full body exercises. I would call these muscular endurance circuits, sure a google search will bring up plenty on this. In essence they were designed to be very intense over 30sec-1min then rotate I think.
Pure cardio seemed restricted to running as a warm up/down drill. Some of the juniors spent time doing uphill slalom on in line skates.
However by far the most common work appeared to agility drills, plyometric drills and lots of flexibility and core work.
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I have a book ski fitness by Matt Hine. It seems quite well argued.
Like some of the others say (plus you I think) he argues for all body training, mainly a million variety of squats and other excercises from standing. Its pretty intense.
I obviously bought this book at least 3 years ago and haven't done any of it yet. it makes sense but it looks extremely punishing on the knees and some of it looks like it will aggreavte my bulging disc problem.
I am currently doing lots of core. Think I will do a bit more balance training and slot in some cardio -the book suggest running (not for my discs) or elliptical
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I've pretty much decided to push strength training as far as I can go (using a 3x5 linear program, for anyone that knows what I'm talking about), and probably turn up for day one of the ski season fat and strong with low cardio fitness. Can't lift heavy stuff, ski 6.5 days a week and expect muscle recovery so may as well do the only thing I can't do during the season as well as possible out of it.
fwiw, I'm pretty sure barbell lifts are way better at core and leg strength than any other potential exercise involving random stuff like bosu balls. Just a lot more effort to do properly...
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DaveC, I finished off last year doing mainly weights, due to a knee injury. I thought it helped a ton.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| I've pretty much decided to push strength training as far as I can go . |
Do you not think a bit of everything would be better. If you decide that a single focus is the way forward, cardio would be first and strength last would seem more logical. No point in being superb at the start and falling over knackered a minute into the race
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Thornyhill, cardio diminishes strength, both in loss of muscle mass and taking up recovery time. I have six months of a ski season where I'll be doing 7-8 hours a day on snow (this is a lot of cardio). Getting strong also means it's easier to have low cardiovascular capacity and get away with it. That's pretty much the two main reasons why a bit of everything would result in a lot of nothing. Note I'm not actually racing competitively, but that's not really relevant anyway. Cardio first is like having a massive petrol tank for a small engine.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| DaveC wrote: |
| Thornyhill, cardio diminishes strength, both in loss of muscle mass and taking up recovery time. I have six months of a ski season where I'll be doing 7-8 hours a day on snow (this is a lot of cardio). Getting strong also means it's easier to have low cardiovascular capacity and get away with it. That's pretty much the two main reasons why a bit of everything would result in a lot of nothing. Note I'm not actually racing competitively, but that's not really relevant anyway. Cardio first is like having a massive petrol tank for a small engine. |
Cardio diminishes strength - Not true. Cardio and strength are unrelated unless you have a fixed amount of training time. If you eat properly, you won't lose muscle mass and your recovery times will be shorter anyway. 7-8 hours a day for 6 months will get you fit as a butchers dog after 6 months, but you will be useless for the first two months if you are only strong for 30 seconds. I have to wonder - how can you race not competitively? Strength first is like having a massive engine and no fuel - 'A lot of nothing' as you describe it would be a decent engine and a full petrol tank. This will beat a massive petrol tank and no engine, or a massive engine and no petrol
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Strength training is important, make sure you are doing power as well though! and include some plyometrics to improve your 'quick feet'. Cardio is always important as is core strength in your programme!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Thornyhill, lifting heavy requires 48hrs recovery minimum, and that's as a novice (which I'll be for a while, in the sense I can progress from a novice program with linear gains.). Cardio will end up diminishing strength because after eating over calorific maintainence until the season starts (to facillitate muscle growth etc), it's inevitable I'm going to have excess bodyfat to get rid of too - so I'll be eating at maintainence/below during the season, which will result in fat and lean body mass loss. You're right that in a bubble, cardio doesn't have to decrease muscle mass, but trying to push both at once is really counter productive (unless you're wolverine, on steroids). Also, cardio purely to increase VO2 (volume of oxygen in blood) is very easily increased - specific cardio for random stuff like skiing is difficult to build without actually skiing. There's not a ton of crossover from a cross trainer/rower. The car analogy I was going for led to small tank, big engine vs big tank, small engine is that a fuel tank is much easier to upgrade than an engine. There's definitely no optimal way to have the best of both worlds in the limited time frame left before winter.
The other thing is, after 3 seasons of starting off unfit, and coming back unfit, while skiing around 100 days, you'd be surprised how much technique can cover for fitness in general. I explained that I'm not actually racing earlier in the post, I'm going for my CSIA3 and CSCF2 this season (CSCF2 requires a high level of racing proficiency though).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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DaveC, do you test your lactic acid regularly? i know you said you are not specifically training to race, but it gives a good indication of how all the training is going,what sort of heart rate you should be aiming for etc
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DaveC,
If you are just lifting heavy, how are you going to get endurance? Won't you just grow muscles that are good for one thing?
The book I have maintains 'classical' weight training is out dated (from 1920s) and not relevant for skiing and too many trainers rely upon it.
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You know it makes sense.
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Balance is king.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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gryphea, because lifting 1.5x bodyweight for 5 reps is going to make lifting things that're much lighter easier - strength implies endurance at lower workloads. Depends how you define "classical" weight training really, but people talking about core strength and balance clearly haven't tried squatting a barbell with their bodyweight on their back... your core has to be solid as to not snap the spine!
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Poster: A snowHead
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DaveC, Don't neglect your hamstrings. The CSCF recommendation is that you should be doing the same weight for hamstring curls as you do for seated leg lifts.
For my exercise routine I alternate days of cardio on the bike with days of using weights machines. During the winter I get the equivalent of doing free weights by carrying bundles of gates around but still go to the gym as well.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| DaveC wrote: |
| Thornyhill, lifting heavy requires 48hrs recovery minimum, and that's as a novice (which I'll be for a while, in the sense I can progress from a novice program with linear gains.). Cardio will end up diminishing strength because after eating over calorific maintainence until the season starts (to facillitate muscle growth etc), it's inevitable I'm going to have excess bodyfat to get rid of too - so I'll be eating at maintainence/below during the season, which will result in fat and lean body mass loss. |
If you are serious about this you should probably get yourself a dietician to give you a tailored diet to match your training and energy throughput. Heavy lifting 2 or three times a week is good for strength, but if you are eating fat in the hopes of gaining muscle, it won't work. You can convert protein to fat, but you can't convert fat to protein, so any fat in your diet must be burned or stored. If you have a heavy protein diet for muscle gain, you can balance the cardio requirements with carb intake to stop any muscle mass loss. You body will burn glycogen first, fat second and protein third. As you say, you can't train for strength every day, but you can train for cardio twice a day. If you match your diet to your training, you can have the best of both. Also, strength training is specific to muscle groups. Cardio training is not. It merely improves the rate that your body can shift CO2 and ultimately lactic acid from your muscles. Ultimately, it will also increase the oxygen and nutrition supply to your muscles than will make heavy lifting recovery times shorter and subsequently make your strength training more effective.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rjs, the CSCF shouldn't recommend exercise (weight) machines at all  neither leg presses nor hamstring curls build any functional strength...
Thornyhill, I'm not sure you're following me. Eating at a calorific excess is required to promote/allow muscle growth. That implies at least some body fat will be added too, as an unavoidable consequence. If you're interested, my current diet is a 25/50/25 carb/pro/fat macro split, and if you really want me to try and do 2x cardio a day, eat at a calorific excess and still recover 48hrs later, I hope you're providing the steroids... also, "strength training is specific to muscle groups" is probably a byproduct attitude of people using machines in gyms and doesn't really make any sense imo...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| DaveC wrote: |
Thornyhill, I'm not sure you're following me. Eating at a calorific excess is required to promote/allow muscle growth. That implies at least some body fat will be added too, as an unavoidable consequence. If you're interested, my current diet is a 25/50/25 carb/pro/fat macro split, and if you really want me to try and do 2x cardio a day, eat at a calorific excess and still recover 48hrs later, I hope you're providing the steroids... also, "strength training is specific to muscle groups" is probably a byproduct attitude of people using machines in gyms and doesn't really make any sense imo... |
Dave - I am following you OK. The flaw in your plan is related to calories. In order to recover from heavy work, you need amino acids. These all come from protein and vitamin intake. No amount of pure carbs or fat will help. Your body doesn't need to recover from cardio. If you could chuck in enough glycogen, you could do 16 hours of cardio a day. If your body has enough of a glycogen supply, you won't ever lose a gram of your protein (muscle mass.) If you can balance the energy consumed with the energy used on a daily basis, with an excess of protein, you can do all the heavy work and cardio you want without one distracting from the other
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