 Poster: A snowHead
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We ski quite bit in the Swiss 4-Vallees area and this coming season plan to start exploring some of the off-piste with the help of local guides etc. To date our off-piste experiences have been in the more obvious/accessible stuff in and around Siviez or the in the trees above Nendaz (eg under the Tracouet cable car or the forest above the progression park) where there is limited avalanche risk.
My questions relates to avalanche equipment/training. How important is it and does the cost justify the benefit? (I guess it does if it saves your life…  ).
Considering we will be with experienced local guides and will be not doing anything too extreme (I’m not a good enough skier to do anything too crazy in any event) do I need to invest in this equipment?
If the answer is “yes you do need it”, what do I need/what is the most cost effective equipment and where is the best place to get it?
Finally, if I do buy the kit, do I need to do training to avoid the “all the gear but no idea…” problem?
All sensible views/responses received with thanks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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1556garyt, if you are going out with properly certified guides (UIAGM) or instructors:
1. they won't ski anything remotely risky unless you are carrying the kit
but
2. they will supply kit for you or help you find somewhere to hire it
there are lots of benefits to owning your own which will probably become obvious if you spend more and more time off-piste but probably best to see if you are bitten by the bug before buying it all yourself
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I think you probably already know the answer to at least 1 of those questions. Sounds like you're just hoping someone says, "nah don't bother, it's not necessary" so you can justify not having to do it. I'm the same. I know i should be its a lot of hassle. There's always a chance of an avalanche and I'm sure your guide would appreciate you bein capable of rescuing him if he managed to get caught in one.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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If you are skiing in avalanche terrain:
You DO need: an avalanche beacon, a probe and a shovel.
You might like to buy / hire: An 'airbag system' avalanche back pack and / or an avalung. Other 'avalanche awareness tools', ie clinometer, thermometer, magnifying glass. The cost of these items should be evaluated against use. I have an ABS backpack, it's very expensive, I ski lots, I love being alive.
You DO need to know HOW to use the equipment you have.
You DO need how to MITIGATE risk when traveling in avalanche terrain. Skiing with guides is one of the best ways to acquire this experience / knowledge.
You might not need to buy the equipment, if you are a one or two weeks a year skier than buying a beacon is expensive. As technology moves on, hiring makes even more sense, old analogue beacons (in inexperienced hands) are far harder to use than modern digital beacons.
Without any of those things ^ you have no business you being in avalanche terrain. On a certain level I'm not really that bothered if you kill yourself or one of your group. However if you expose myself, or one of my group, to danger then shame on you.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Would love to know the disparity between all the kit that's sold and the amount of training undergone. I know it would be impossible to find out but I bet the majority of those with all the gear literally do have no idea. At least the OP here asked the question.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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The kit is a last resort, and if you have to use it you're in big trouble already. Important to learn how to use it efficiently, but more import to learn something about avoiding getting caught in the first place.
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1556garyt, this may help you with your question(s), taken from Henry's Avalanche Talk.
http://www.henrysavalanchetalk.com/beeper_training.html
I've been to one of Henry's talks in Val D'Isere and they are very good.
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Wearing an avalanche transceiver is an important step to being well prepared. If you are wearing one when you are buried you stand a good chance of being located by your friends. However if you are not proficient in how to use the transceiver, then you are risking the lives of your friends and skiing colleagues. The survival chances for a buried skier reduce by some 80% after the first 15 minutes following an accident.
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When you ski off piste, if an avalanche happens, you are relying on your friends/group members to get you out, and fast, and you to return the favour. It takes time for resort rescue to be on the scene with dogs etc, especially if all group members are buried/injured, then you are relying on someone somewhere else to have seen the avalanche and notified resort rescue on your behalf, and that equals time.
The guide will more than likely supply you all with a transceiver, shovel and probe, or tell you where you can hire the stuff, and you may receive a (quick) transceiver lesson from them (however not all of them do this), however it is much better IMO to be familiar with your own transceiver and know how to use it properly because in the event of an accident people can panic and trying to fumble about with an unfamiliar piece of equipment will waste even more time.
Sounds to me that you and your group are probably going to ski off piste more and more so is the cost of an transceiver, shovel and probe package that much in the grand scheme of things of skiing as a hobby? I don't think it is when you consider how much it costs to hire a guide for a day or how much some people spend on a jacket etc. There are package deals out there for about 200 quid although personally I wouldn't buy a plastic shovel, I've got a metal one.
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(I’m not a good enough skier to do anything too crazy in any event)
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Doesn't matter about your level IMO.
As parlor has said, buying a transceiver can work out expensive for a 1-2 week a year skier but as I say, some people spend more than the cost of (basic) kit on a jacket and other stuff. Once you've bought it, it should last a long time.
Hope that helps.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 1-09-10 19:11; edited 1 time in total
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Would love to know the disparity between all the kit that's sold and the amount of training undergone. I know it would be impossible to find out but I bet the majority of those with all the gear literally do have no idea. At least the OP here asked the question. |
Probably quite a lot have it or hire it and haven't a clue how to use it, yes.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Meant to say, if you are going out with a guide or instructor, well then of course they will be selecting the terrain for you with the group's and their own safety in mind. However, skiing with a guide does not mean you are immune from danger from avalanches. Sometimes, people come along without a care in the world who don't know what they are doing, or they don't really care maybe, and they can set avalanches off above you. This happened to me once, although fortunately it wasn't a very big one.
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If you are in avalanche territory*, you really should have the kit, and the know-how to use it - doesn't matter whether the guide has provided it, or you've hired or bought it - you should have it. It's just as important to know how to avoid avalanches and travel safety, which is where hiring a guide comes in useful as they can make these decisions for you.
*which is 99/99% of the offpiste areas around (potentially)
Saying that all my first forays into offpiste were with similarly clueless mates with no equipment, messing around in places that looked fun - I would really advise you do NOT (that is, NOT) do this -really not worth the risk. Not much of an excuse, but we were too young and inexperienced to even think about that sort of stuff.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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How do standard ski instructors get on w.r.t. the risks of being 'off piste'? For example, when they decide to jump a group off the edge of a piste and bounce through some trees. Then no-one has any 'off piste kit' and 'technically' I guess the majority of ski insurances wouldn't kick in if anything happened. So often I read on SH that there is no such thing as being a 'little bit off piste' - like being a little bit pregnant, i.e. you are either on or off piste/ Yet, despite the last sentence there would appear to be different categories if the ski instructors 'get away with it'. Is there a discussion in this?
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 1-09-10 21:29; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ... if the ski instructors 'get away with it'. |
Sadly instructors and guides get caught in avalanches, so they don't always get away with it. The more knowledge you have about snowpack stability the more you are able to take judgements about risk. Although I am very inexperienced in this area the training I've done in mountain safety (through assessed courses, written and online material and informal discussion with more experienced skiers) has changed my behaviour in terms of what I'll ski, and has showed me just how little I know about this. If you are leading a group you become more aware of this, so I tend to err on the side of caution.
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Megamum, It's like either being on the beach or in the sea. One or the other. But... paddling ankle deep in calm water is vastly different to swimming 250m out in a heavy swell. One metre from the piste in flat terrain with good snow conditions is almost as safe as being on the piste. Two metres downslope from the piste on a convex slope in fresh wind blown snow may be very dangerous. But can you evaluate the risks and make the decision?
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You know it makes sense.
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I've seen the 'guide or person in charge' of our group swept away in front of us as he cleared a couloir drop in with a couple of others. Just because you have paid to join a proper group doesn't mean that you are immune.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Scarpa, I couldn't, do we assume that any instructors that might jump off piste have appropriate training and can? Esp. in light of rob@rar's, comments above.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Megamum wrote: |
| .....do we assume that any instructors that might jump off piste have appropriate training and can?..... |
I think most recreational/holiday skiers would assume that they had - which is a pretty dangerous assumption.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Scarpa, I couldn't, do we assume that any instructors that might jump off piste have appropriate training and can? Esp. in light of rob@rar's, comments above. |
Even if they have the appropriate (and ongoing) training that's no guarantee that they will get the risk assessment right.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd put a lot of weight to any decision made by a qualified mountain guide but to be honest I question everything in my mind. And I'd rate my own knowledge as being pretty sketchy with little Alpine experience.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
How do standard ski instructors get on w.r.t. the risks of being 'off piste'?
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Having done much of my skiing in the states, I found the concept of European "off piste" interesting. Well, I mean, the attitude of skiers when the word "off-piste" came up! 
Ski instructors spend enough time in the area to know the real difference of what makes a terrain dangerous or not. So whether a piste basher had packed down the snow ("piste") or not ("off-piste") is not the least relavent to whether it's safe to ski there or not.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, What's the old saying... 'The mountain doesn't know that you are an expert' 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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spyderjon, Exactly my thought chain, as a punter you tend to assume that your instructors know what they are doing and are acting on the basis of appropriate training - you therefore tend to do and go what and where they ask you to. It is the notion I've chased a little further in the suggestion about subject matter for the BASI essay in the Piste threa, i.e. do 'punters' really understand the qualifications that their instructors have and their possible limitations. If an instructor led a group off piste and did run into problems would the instructor/ski school be liable?
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there are plenty of places off piste where you are safe and you don't really need kit. the trick is knowing where these places are.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| If an instructor led a group off piste and did run into problems would the instructor/ski school be liable? |
If they are teaching within the limits of their licence, have kept their qualification up to date and obey any local regulations in force at the time I think that any liability would be covered by professional indemnity. Within the BASI system training for off-piste safety doesn't get assessed until the Level 3 qualification - I passed my mountain safety module two years ago, so I'm now licenced to teach off-piste but not in glaciated terrain or outside the resort boundary. However, that doesn't mean that I now have the knowledge or experience to guarantee absolute safety on any slope in any condition (nobody can do that), so it will always be a case of best judgement.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Arno, OK, I'll buy into that. Can the punter assume that the instructors know where these places are? I don't know about France, but in Switzerland I was once told (though I've never had it verified) that ski instructor licences were issued on the basis of the resort being instructed in and that an instructor from one resort couldn't teach in another without an appropriate induction into the new resort and the correct 'ticket' being awarded - I assumed that this induction, perhaps included an awareness of 'safer areas' vs. those deemed 'not safe' in the resort. Would this assumption be right, and does this sort of thing actually happen in other countries?
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Arno, Yup - I've done huge amounts of off piste on my own since my second weeks skiing but I err very much on the side of caution and I'd been around winter mountains for 20 years. Small scale terrain traps seem to be the biggest danger on the type of ground that most inexperienced people first venture into.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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1556garyt, N.B. Sorry - I appear to have railroaded your thread - I'm happy to ask a mod to shift this portion to another thread if you wish, but it seemed an interesting extension from your original question.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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1556garyt, As a minimum I'd practice in the avi parks now set up in many ski resorts. They are free and allow you to search and probe for a selected number of burials. Learn the basics of digging technique from the net and you will probably be better equipped than the majority of new off pisters.
But as soon as you start looking into it you begin to get a little paranoid about the dangers and end up buying serious books and practicing whenever you can. Also ask your guides lots of questions... most of them appreciate someone who wants to gain knowledge.
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Megamum, TBH I don't know. before i had any idea of the risks myself, i didn't have internet forums to scare the bejeezus out of me so it may have been a case of the blind leading the blind! now i like to think i know enough to have a pretty good idea of whether someone knows more or less than me
i think it's a reasonable assumption that a top level instructor operating in any of the alpine countries will know enough to find places for upper intermediate/early advanced skiers to have a play safely in fresh snow. if you find yourself with a french stagiere, i have no idea whether they are allowed to take people off piste at all and if they are, you are probably relying on them being experienced personally rather than having been taught formally
i know BASI get people doing mountain safety modules fairly early in their career. this doesn't mean that a BASI 2 is an avalanche safety genius, but they probably know enough to err on the side of safety
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You know it makes sense.
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"In the absence of catastrophic evidence to the contrary, experience takes on the appearance of wisdom." — Craig Connally, the Mountaineering Handbook.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Scarpa, or maybe "in the land of the blind, the man with one eye is king"
or something 
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Poster: A snowHead
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In answer to the OP I agree with Clarky... Two types of training - which are often done at the same time but are pretty distinct.
1) Training in how to use the rescue equipment - shovel, probe and beacon - nice to practice
2) Training in how to avoid getting caught in the first place - this is an on going thing and never ends..
I think if you are with a local guide and they think you need equipment I hope they will help you source it. It is worth however having a bit of a practice as all beacons are slightly different and take a bit of getting used to; plus just getting a feel for the search techniques. If you're planning on spending a few days with the guide I would hope he / she gives you a quick lesson on day one. I would certainly advocate a bit of try before you buy on this as some beacons are easier to use than others / have more features etc. If you do decide to buy try to find a shop which will let you test (so they go outside and hide the beacon in a tree or something).
I would hope the guide has enough of (2) to ensure you are safe; however as mentioned above they do (in my experience) like to pass on the knowledge as to what they are thinking at any given time if asked.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| 1556garyt wrote: |
We ski quite bit in the Swiss 4-Vallees area and this coming season plan to start exploring some of the off-piste with the help of local guides etc. To date our off-piste experiences have been in the more obvious/accessible stuff in and around Siviez or the in the trees above Nendaz (eg under the Tracouet cable car or the forest above the progression park) where there is limited avalanche risk.
My questions relates to avalanche equipment/training. How important is it and does the cost justify the benefit? (I guess it does if it saves your life… ).
Considering we will be with experienced local guides and will be not doing anything too extreme (I’m not a good enough skier to do anything too crazy in any event) do I need to invest in this equipment?
If the answer is “yes you do need it”, what do I need/what is the most cost effective equipment and where is the best place to get it?
Finally, if I do buy the kit, do I need to do training to avoid the “all the gear but no idea…” problem?
All sensible views/responses received with thanks. |
In 2007 I triggered a large slide less than 100m from the piste next to the Greppon Blanc poma above Siviez.
This is my home territory, and I am supposed to know what I am doing.
Hopefully that answers your question.
If you are going to ski off-piste you need 2 things :-
1) The right equipment
2) The right training
Equipment wise you need a transceiver, a metal shovel & a probe. Personally I would add a helmet & a first aid kit
Training is essential. Whatever the marketing blurb says, transceivers are not easy things to use.
There is a training park next to the Jumbo lift at La Chaux.
You also need to learn how to deal with the incident as a whole, not just the transceiver search part.
Even more importantly, you need to learn the mountaincraft to reduce the risk of you ever needing the equipment.
SCGB Ski Freshtracks organise excellant weekend & week long mountaincraft courses.
Of course you could just visit me (i'm in Siviez) ...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Alan McGregor wrote: |
| In 2007 I triggered a large slide less than 100m from the piste next to the Greppon Blanc poma above Siviez. This is my home territory, and I am supposed to know what I am doing... |
Which all goes to prove that the mountain doesn't know you're an expert. Of all the sayings I've heard this one probably means the most, in my view - and is possibly the hardest to remember.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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1556garyt, I hope you're just trolling......
anywhere that you need a guide to take you could kill you, (and plenty of the "easy" or "obvious" stuff too.)
Last year a snowboarder died in Verbier directly under a lift in clear conditions.
Friends who are high level swiss off-piste guides have been caught in avalanches and only survived due to their gear.
last year lots of guides were caught throughout the alps and many died, no-one is immune.
If you send even a small slide down onto me and can't find me/dig me out, I'll be raging but you wont feel so good either!
'Nuff said.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
My questions relates to avalanche equipment/training. How important is it and does the cost justify the benefit? (I guess it does if it saves your life… ).
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Surely this is a wind-up! What more do you want, you've just answered your own question 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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the_doc, this was not a wind-up but I take your point...
But lets be realistic; are the majority of skiers who undertake less "serious" off-piste skiing carrying the full range of avalanche gear and fully trained on it...? I doubt it.
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Context is everything - I have heard instructors bragging that they don't have any avalanche gear and because they've skied in the resort all their life they don't need it as they "know" where and when is safe to go. I've thought this was a stupid thing to say but in the context of fairly tame off-piste may be fine as its simply a rather arrogant expression of avoidance is better than rescue.
As above I've heard of lots of guides and other pros getting killed and there was an interesting thread on TGR last year from a highly experienced backcountry skier about the mistakes his party had made in getting avalanched on very familiar terrain. I think there was a reference there to risk recalibration due to the number of "safe" days you've had and taking that as evidence of experience and thence expertise.
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| 1556garyt wrote: |
| ... who undertake less "serious" off-piste ... |
What criteria do you use when judging what is serious off-piste and what is not serious?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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sorry for the thread drift but at risk of being very controversial and with the usual caveats of safety, knowledge, local experience etc. I'm not sure I agree with the "only a little bit off piste is like being a little bit pregnant" argument.
Reading most posts on SH's an off piste newbie like Megamum, (who is probably going to venture off piste for the first time on an easy side of the piste type of run) probably think there are man eating marmottes everywhere and a single step off piste will produce instant doom unless they have tons of gear with them. they would be be unlikely to do their first runs on steep avalanche prone slopes and would be pretty safe doing this within resort boundaries on low gradient slopes if conditions are good and avi risk low. i am sure someone will post a photo or story about someone getting killed on a green slope under a chair lift when risk was 1 but off piste absolute beginners that feel that they must get kitted out with shovel/probe/transceivers/back protectors and full face helmets to have a play a few metres from a green slope seems over the top to me. You are pretty unlikely to get hurt from an avalanche and more likely to twist a knee in those conditions as long as you check risk is low why not have a play?
I appreciate the OP was talking about avalanche prone areas and i would fully agree that training and gear would be a good idea.
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| Quote: |
| ... a little bit off piste / less serious off-piste |
Avalanche risk depends on the prevalent snow, weather and wind conditions on the day.
NOT the location....
Being close to a controlled piste doesn't have any influence on the avalanche risk of an adjacent off-piste area. Its all the same mountain.
The only factor in your favor when skiing 'a little bit off piste' is that such slopes get skied more often (so there is less chance of hidden buried layers).
For sure lots of skiers in the alps do venture off-piste with out gear.
But they are usually low ability, clueless one week a year holiday-makers.
You can still happily drive a car without wearing a seat-belt.
Chances are that nothing bad will happen - though most people prefer not to take that small risk ?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Thu 2-09-10 14:33; edited 7 times in total
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FAQ
