 Poster: A snowHead
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My partner and I live in Australia but will be the UK in early 2011 and are planning a week skiing somewhere in Europe – totally undecided where yet.
We have been looking at either 26 Feb–5 Mar or 5 Mar–12 Mar. However I notice from thefatcontroller’s sticky showing school holidays (sooo useful fatcontroller thank you!) that there are still various school holidays happening in those weeks, although it’s not quite as busy as the middle two weeks of Feb.
We could possibly arrange to travel later and so ski 19-26 Mar or 26 Mar-2 Apr - no school holidays anywhere in Europe! However I’m a shiftworker and to do this would require more days from my ‘leave budget’. Plus our international airfares would cost about 300 pounds more (for both not each) which is a consideration though not the be all and end all.
So everyone, what are your experiences of skiing in late Feb/early March when some regions in Europe still have school holidays on - particularly as regards crowds and prices?
I was wondering if somewhere like the Spanish Pyrenees would be a bit quieter than say, France or Germany, as Spain has no holidays from Christmas to Easter it seems. We’re completely open minded about where we go.
How about abundance and quality of snow - much difference between late Feb and late March? (sorry if that’s a funny question, season’s traditionally short here although at mo it looks set to go on for some time, yay!).
Enough questions, over to you…
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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March April is awesome.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Personally I'd still go for the Alps - the best skiing is there. And there isn't much skiing in Germany (perhaps you meant Switzerland / Austria?).
Late March is fine but don't go for a low resort (though the Eastern end of the Alps you can go lower than Western). And I would assume (though I don't know) that the Pyrennees would have a slightly shorter season than the Alps.
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First week of March is usually fine.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ClareA, I know this is not quite your first post but welcome to snowheads anyway.
Somewhat harder question than I first thought. However, by and large, I'd be surprised if you couldn't find a not-very-busy top destination in one of the weeks you mention.
You also need to find out Austrian holidays (any other snowheads can help?) and then possibly head there in one of the two weeks noted. Austria is an excellent ski destination (by far the best for apres-ski, more beautiful resorts than many French ones, though slightly lower mountains and smaller - but still very large - linked ski areas).
(Before this starts a fight between Austria and France lovers, I should say that I like them all, + Italy and Switzerland, and spread my skiing amongst all of them, more in France probably!)
Otherwise, for France the 5-12 March week looks less bad than the others - if it was me, I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid booking that week in a French resort.
Italy also looks good for your weeks (the Dolomites would be a top destination for ski mileage, superb views and good food).
I've just been to the Pyrenees (French side mainly) and loved them. However, if coming from Australia, I'm not sure I would pick them as my only European ski destination.
March is usually one of the best months for snow.
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Got to La Plagne, it's awesome.
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ClareA, March/April are quite often blessed with some of the best snow conditions in the Alps.
I'm guessing this could be a one off trip so I'd suggest going somewhere pretty big as it will show you what Europe has to offer skiing-wise so any of the large French resorts, Zermatt or even the Dolomites would be a good choice.
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I agree with everything horizon has said. Austria, is our favorite destination for skiing for just those reasons stated.
I haven't skiied in the pyrenees since I was a young girl but I have (not so fond) memories of being bussed daily over to Andora from La Molina (spanich pyrenees) as there wasn't any snow, and it wasn't cold enough for the snow canons. Admittedly that was much earlier in the season than you are talking but it has put me off them somewhat.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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La Plagne is best/better than everywhere else.
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I'll go along with Swirly's suggestion of something pretty big and I'll add:
- Verbier (can't believe he didn't mention it...maybe because it caters less to low intermediates?)
- St Anton / Lech - pretty large domain with 280 kms of runs, though you have to bus between 2 main areas
I'm also pretty sure someone here will recommend Saalbach/Hinterglemm in Austria.
In France, you have any number of top destinations, with the absolute biggest linked domains being The Three Valleys (Meribel/Courchevel/Mottaret/Val Thorens/Les Menuires), Paradiski (Les Arcs / La Plagne), Portes du Soleil (Avoriaz / Morzine plus the Swiss side), and then still very large Espace Killy (Val' d'Isere / Tignes), Alpe d'Huez, Serre Chevalier, Les Deux Alpes, plus the Via Lattea which is 70% over the border in Italy and 30% in France, but linked (Montgenevre/Claviere/Sestriere/Sauze d'Oulx).
Personally, of the ones I've been to in France, for your requirements I'd pick Espace Killy, Three Valleys or Montgenevre (or possibly Alpe d'Huez). I've not fallen madly in love with Paradiski, Portes du Soleil and Les Deux Alpes but that's just me and I'd still ski there! Serre Chevalier is high on the list of next destinations.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In your circumstances I would opt for the first/second week of March in the Alps. Better snow and cheaper. Usually not that busy too.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
- Verbier (can't believe he didn't mention it...maybe because it caters less to low intermediates?)
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Yeah, don't get me wrong Verbier is amazing but I think if you're a blue/red run skier you aren't going to get out of it what you would elsewhere. I think at that level the amount of cat-tracks that you have to use to get to another part of the area or downloading in lifts rather than skiing would get boring quickly. Of course you could stay in another part of the area but if it's a one-off then really you have to stay in Verbier.
Serre Chevalier is a really good suggestion, it's my top place for piste skiing, I'd agree with everywhere you've said though except for Verbier.
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Has to be Scotland really
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm going to Austria March 5-12, no school holidays there then and I'm praying to the snow gods already. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ClareA, sounds like a good time to ski in Australia right now! 
"Mother nature has delivered a phenomenal last week of winter. Falls Creek has accumulated 226 cm of snowfall so far this month.
The mercury plummeted overnight at Victoria's largest alpine resort down to minus 7C and the 54cm of fresh snow, which fell in the last 24 hours, has broken August records kept since 1992.
The resort's Natural Snow Depth is now a whopping 177cm. This is now the deepest snow cover of any Victorian alpine resort and powderhounds are going to be relishing the most amazing late winter snow conditions in nearly two decades.
September is going to be sensational! There'll be significant snow cover on all the resort's lift -served terrain."
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Poster: A snowHead
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ClareA, Fasching (a carnival type holiday week in Austria and Germany) is late next year (March 5-12) which means that some of the larger resorts can be more expensive to stay at compared to other weeks during the season. I've not noticed queues being a particular problem in some of the big Austrian resorts during these weeks but accommodation costs are definitely higher.
Late Feb/March is a good time to go skiing in the Alps. There are so many resorts in different countries to choose from. However it depends on what you are after? Traditional alpine town like Chamonix, Zermatt, Cortina etc, huge interlinked ski areas like 3 Valleys, Portes du Soleil, Espace Killy, Arlberg etc, or high purpose built resort over chocolate box pretty alpine villages?
Have fun planning your trip!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ClareA, I'm not 100% certain but I believe that the first full week of March 2011 is Fasching week in Austria and Germany. This means high season and high prices. The date of Shrove Tuesday (Faschingdienstag) is I think 9. March. This is always the last crazy day of Fasching and it is followed by Aschemittwoch (Ash Wednesday) which is the first day of Lent.
Austrian schools usually have a holiday around then and so do Bavarian and a couple of other German Bundesländer. I don't have my diary with me at the moment so I can't confirm the holiday dates yet. A colleague has just told me that his kids are on holiday from 7th March for a week because that's when they are going skiing - so Bavaria is definitely on holiday that week
If you are not reliant on a UK Tour Operator, you may find that going in late February might work out cheaper as next year is a weird one because Easter is exceptionally late (April 24th).
queen bodecia, a lot of Germans are on holiday that week! The motorways will be hell in both directions - where are you flying into? I can't remember which resort either - is it Kitz again?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Samerberg Sue, eeeep! We didn't know about that when we booked. Flying to Salzburg and skiing in Kitzbuhel.
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Thanks heaps for all the comments folks, how much more clued up am I already - brilliant! )
The trip we're currently planning is kind of a one-off in that it won't happen often, and 2011 will be the first time. In the long run I’m hoping to do it perhaps every 3rd year.
Bit of a shame about the timing of Fasching - very useful info to have though!
nozawaonsen, yes mother nature has seriously come to the party over here  . Had our ‘big’ trip a couple of weeks ago just as snow was getting good, luckily. Day trip to Perisher on Sunday, yay! So sooo tempted to ski Monday too but it would entail staying on whilst my partner returns to work commitments – seems a bit mean...
snowball, not quite sure where my thoughts of Germany came from, as with even my desperately scant knowledge of Europe's mountains, (which comes entirely from summer holidays as a child 20+ years ago) I'd picked up that it's not a big skiing destination. Thought I'd read a good review but perhaps it was for x-country!
juliad, essentials of what we're after is
uncrowded with good uplift,
good quality instruction,
reasonable prices.
If those can be taken care of, a 'desirable' would be ski-in ski-out accommodation. However would I be right to think that ski-in ski-out tends to be found more in the purpose built (and architecturally uninspiring) resorts, whilst the traditional mountain villages are prettier but usually less convenient logistically?
Also not sure what ski-in ski-out would do to the budget. Over here it’s often 2.5 times the price of accommodation that is 20 or 25 mins away by shuttle bus.
Purely a ‘nice to have’, if possible – somewhere we can give cross-country skiing a try.
Samerberg Sue, what prompted your comment about not being reliant on a UK Tour Operator – did you mean that UK tour operators charge high prices in late February?
Cheers all!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ClareA, if you're looking for uncrowded, I'm not sure anywhere in France will be suitable - those are some of the busiest weeks. Many of those big areas mentioned are also pretty expensive. What sort of level skiers are you? When I've had antipodean skiers in a small French resort they were all blown away by the size of the ski area - but even small ones, though less expensive, get crowded those weeks. The first week in February would be heaps better if you were able to go then (or later in March, but that's quite a big price penalty for you). Somebody with knowledge of how busy the Italian areas are during that period will probably be along in a moment - the scenery in the Dolomites is stunning and the Italian ambience is fun.
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| Quote: |
La Plagne is best/better than everywhere else.
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Hmmm... Not sure I agree with that. It wouldn't be top of my list.
Also, I don't think we should get too hung up on crowds in March. Everywhere should be deserted compared to the times when we have to ski (ie UK school hols, as Mrs B is a teacher)
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| Quote: |
Everywhere should be deserted compared to the times when we have to ski (ie UK school hols, as Mrs B is a teacher)
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that's a rather brit-centric view! there are many, many, resorts - not just in France - where the UK school holidays are not necessarily a major determinant of crowds. There are plenty of places where scarcely any Brits are to be found, or certainly not enough to make a big difference. And if you fondly imagine that the French resorts are deserted except for the week of the UK half term, you are way off the mark.
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Bergmeister, welcome to SMALLZOOKEEPER 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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For my money I wouldn't go anywhere near France in Feb. Aim at Austria, Switzerland or Italy instead unless one happens to like queues.
It really surprises me that La Plagne could be recommended for Feb.
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pam w, I agree. We skied Risoul in Easter 2009 and there was hardly any English to be heard. Ski school for Mrs. B and the little'uns included at least 5 other nationalities, and I got plenty of opportunities to inflict my basic French on fellow skiers on the ski lifts. In fact La Plagne was a fairly similar experience this Easter.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ClareA wrote: |
juliad, essentials of what we're after is
uncrowded with good uplift,
good quality instruction,
reasonable prices.
If those can be taken care of, a 'desirable' would be ski-in ski-out accommodation. However would I be right to think that ski-in ski-out tends to be found more in the purpose built (and architecturally uninspiring) resorts, whilst the traditional mountain villages are prettier but usually less convenient logistically?
Also not sure what ski-in ski-out would do to the budget. Over here it’s often 2.5 times the price of accommodation that is 20 or 25 mins away by shuttle bus.
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From your description of what you want, any of the bigger resorts in Austria would certainly suit you. Eg Ski-Welt, Sallbach-Hinterglemm, Zillertal, plus a fair few others.
Truly ski-in ski-out is relatively uncommon in Austria, but you will rarely be more than a 5-10 minute free ski bus ride from the lifts.
When you do find it, it doesn't command as high a premium as you suggest is the case there.
And you are right that true ski-in ski-out tends to be more readily available in the purpose built resorts, although that is a fairly gross over-generalisation.
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Samerberg Sue, what prompted your comment about not being reliant on a UK Tour Operator – did you mean that UK tour operators charge high prices in late February?
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Very much so, because that is UK school half term week, so a huge proportion of the families with school age children will be going that week. They could fill all the flights and their regular accommodation several times over, so charge much higher prices.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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pamw, I am an early intermediate skier and my partner solid to advanced intermediate. I'm aware the weeks we have aren't absolutely ideal. We’re staying open to the idea of travelling late March (and just wearing the airfare price difference). Early February isn't completely impossible but it'd be tricky.
I am wondering about:
26 Feb-5 Mar in either Austria or Dolomites (hols for 2 French Zones, Switzerland & Czech Republic) or;
5-12 Mar in Dolomites (hols for 1 French Zone, Austria, parts of Germany, Czech Republic, Holland and Belgium).
Switzerland is a possibility, though I'm wondering if Swiss resorts get crowds going over from France and understand it can be pretty pricey?
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| Quote: |
I'm wondering if Swiss resorts get crowds going over from France
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Not really, the French tend to stick to France. I don't think it's particularly more expensive in a Swiss resort to a large French one either and I've done a season in both. I think you'll be fine with either of the plans you've suggested although if I had to pick one I'd go 5-12th in the Dolomites, I went either that week or the next one a few years ago and there were no queues anywhere.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I am wondering about:
26 Feb-5 Mar in either Austria or Dolomites or; 5-12 Mar in Dolomites
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ClareA, France has some of the World's best ski resorts but seeing as your first week option coincides with some French holidays and if you are worried about crowds etc there might be other options for this first trip, like the destinations you've outlined above.
I'm based in a big ski area in France for much of the winter and I don't think queues are ever much of a real problem seeing as uplift is good. There are pros and cons to all the resorts. Without making huge generalisations, France tends to be more expensive than Austria, Italy and some of the Swiss resorts. There are more purpose built resorts in France, however as some of the other  s have mentioned, ski bus networks normally make getting to the slopes relatively easy if you are not in slopeside accommodation in France or anywhere else. I'm going to be really bold here, but I think the quality of instruction can be better in France if you go with a British operated ski school. You can't always find decent English spoken tuition everywhere in the Alps.
I know the Arlberg (IMO the best Austrian ski area) and Dolomite ski areas well and they are both awesome ski areas but very different in character. Both are suitable for your skiing experience and offer vast amounts of skiing but you might prefer the convenience of a Dolomite resort on the Sella Ronda circuit? However, there are plenty of other resorts in Austria to ski though... it all depends on what you are looking for. If you fancy Austria, you might find the last week of Feb is cheaper and less crowded than the Fasching week. Austria and the Dolomites are well served by British TOs or easy to do DIY.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ClareA,
We are totally biased. But we do like to promote Morzine / Avoriaz in the PDS as we live here. Fantastic area, great skiing for all abilities, and a nice alpine town to boot.
Close to Geneva for quick transfers.
Hope we can persuade you to come here.
Paul & Nina.
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Poster: A snowHead
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ClareA, one of the key determinants of cost is not where you go, but how you organise your holiday. The basic costs - accommodation, ski pass, hire of gear, tuition don't vary systematically from one country to another (e.g. ski hire can sometimes be more expensive in Austria but drinks are generally cheaper, France has some of the cheapest slopeside apartments (though not in the school holidays!).
Above and beyond the inescapable basics what makes a big difference is "apres ski" (usually a euphemism, amongst Britbrat skiers, for going to out bars getting off their trollies night after night). It's cheaper - so they tell me - to do that in Austria than in France! However, if getting off your trolley is you thing, you can get off it very cheaply on booze bought in French supermarkets.
One European institution to think about is the "catered chalet" - plenty of threads about them on snowheads. Have a look through some of the brochures. They can be a good way of having a sociable holiday without breaking the bank. You usually get wine with supper (plenty of it) included in the price, you get afternoon tea after skiing (which means you can avoid a hideously expensive lunch on the slopes) and you can usually take your own duty frees and buy mixers, soft drinks, etc in the chalet. The formula offered by chalets varies, as does the price. It can be unbelievably expensive or really pretty inexpensive.
It's drinks and meals bought "out" which push up the price of a holiday. If you eat and drink in, you save a lot but it can be a bit gloomy unless you are fantastically into each other.
You might also like to look at the French organisation UCPA - which specialises in "all in" weeks for young people, including gear and tuition. I've never been (too old) but my son in law and daughter have done several between them, and rate them very highly. Sociable, an international feel (it won't matter if you don't speak much French at all) and you can be pretty sure of your costs upfront. http://holidays.ucpa.com/default.aspx
A British firm, Action Outdoors, organize packages from the UK using ucpa centres. http://www.action-outdoors.co.uk/
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I worked in Baqueira for a winter season and have been back since. Queues? What queues. For anyone up to an advanced intermediate, this place is amazing. Feb March is a good bet for great snow and, compared to the Alps, there's less than half the people skiing there. My mate has the only British ski school allowed there and also organises holidays too. Free ski lessons if you book a holiday! http://www.skinspired.co.uk Shameless plug I know but I love this place and would recommend it to anyone except advanced riders but then again if you're into backcountry the opportunities are endless!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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ClareA, The UK operators price according to demand from their end which is not necessarily the same at the skiing end. Easter is a classic example - high season in UK operator brochures - low season in the resorts. They maximise their profits, especially at Easter.
I used to run large groups out of the UK using tour operators until I got talking to the head of the ski school were were using (also a long-term friend and former employer). He told me the prices they were being paid and pointed out the differences between the brochure prices and the prices at the working end. We then looked at that particular TO's prices for the season and realised that we were in fact being ripped off big time at Easter and an wee bit at Half Term. The following year I ran one trip independently and that turned out to be cheaper and better (more repeat bookings) despite having the poorest snow conditions. After that I set up all my trips directly with the suppliers and was consistently way under the brochure prices but was able to raise the quality of the accommodation several notches. We also got better ski hire equipment because we were dealing directly with the supplier.
It's a swings and roundabouts thing to be honest. If you are not sure about what you want or where you want to go and don't want to have any headaches about anything, then go with a TO. You will have a degree of security, more if you go with one of the big boys! If you feel confident enough to organise your own trip, then there are cheap flights a plenty and all the tourist office people as well as most of the hoteliers speak and write reasonable English.
Looking at all the holiday info I've got about the European School holidays, the week beginning the 26th February will be the quietest of that period in Austria as it is the week before the Fasching holidays
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Are you planning to use a tour operator or organise yourselves?
If the latter then you could try doing a fly/drive to somewhere like Bourg St Maurice and try a few resorts - Tignes, Val D'Isere, St Foy, la Rosiere, les Arcs, la Plagne, Courchevel, Meribel, Val Thorens and Valmorel are all close by.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hi Guys (that is an all inclusive term applying to the Gals too!),
Wow, thank you all!! I cannot imagine how I’d have even started to organise a trip without the valuable input here.
I’m willing to organise things myself, particularly given that it’s likely to keep costs down, though if a TO package that suited us really well came up I’d consider it.
We’re not chasing a major apres scene – I’m too much of a lightweight!  A catered chalet could be just the thing, or a UCPA centre.
juliad, please forgive my sheer ignorance but what prompted you to say
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| you might prefer the convenience of a Dolomite resort on the Sella Ronda circuit? |
Did you mean such a resort would be more convenient than Austria, or did you mean something else entirely?...
Any thoughts about Switzerland anyone?
I’ll likely be looking for private lessons because they’ve worked so well for me previously, and prices seem comparable to Australia. A native English speaking instructor would be advantageous as the nuances of language have made a difference to my learning in the past, but I realise that may significantly narrow the choice of destinations.
Serre Chevalier - am assuming it would be pretty busy in first full week of March (5-12) as France Zone A still on hols? I keep talking about 'uncrowded' without giving my definition, which would be lift queues on midweek days a quick shuffle or better rather than a stop and wait, and pistes not too mad. No school hols 26 Mar-2 Apr – but what might the Serre Chevalier snow be like by then?
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Coming from Perisher you are in for a treat. Consider Zermatt - it will blow you away.
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| ClareA wrote: |
I’ll likely be looking for private lessons because they’ve worked so well for me previously, and prices seem comparable to Australia. A native English speaking instructor would be advantageous as the nuances of language have made a difference to my learning in the past, but I realise that may significantly narrow the choice of destinations.
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If you are looking for good instruction for yourself I'd highly recommend easiski she is on this forum (check the Les Deux Alpes snow reports) or you can find her on www.easiski.com
Excellent instruction and Les Deux Alpes is a great resort...
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Zermatt tempting but expensive I believe?
Just been checking out easiski - looks good 
Anyone ever been with a TO called 'Ski 2'? Small company doing trips to one destination only which is Champoluc in the Monte Rosa. They have a British-run ski school in Champoluc, but it's for Ski 2 clients only!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
that's a rather brit-centric view! there are many, many, resorts - not just in France - where the UK school holidays are not necessarily a major determinant of crowds
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As it happens we've skiied in lots of the said resorts - in Italy, Switzerland, USA, Canada, Norway and Sweden for example - where the place has been deserted in school holidays.
However, I was merely trying to make the point that (relatively speaking) the popular resorts being put forward in the post (many of which are in France) are (in our experience) far busier in school hols than outside school holiday periods.
That even applies in the USA as well. For example, we have skiied at both Vail and Winter Park during February half term (which coincides with Presidents Weekend Holiday) where (relatively speaking) we encountered quiet slopes. Notwithstanding that, on the bank holiday weekend we did encounter 5 minute lift queues - as opposed to no queues during the rest of the week. Not complaining though -we could still find ourselves on empty runs with no other skiers in sight!
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Hi ClareA, I didn't mean for my comment to come across as a particular Dolomiti resort being more convenient than Austria as a whole. I was just comparing it with St Anton/the Arlberg in terms of skiing convenience. I think both areas are awesome and would recommend them to people if they were looking to experience some of Europe's best ski areas.
If you are staying in St Anton and want to ski Zürs and/or Lech you need to catch a ski bus or taxi to make the most of the Arlberg ski area. Whereas if you are staying in one of the villages on the Sella Ronda circuit, you have a huge lift networked area that you can cover without needing to use ski buses so it might be more convenient in this respect. That is what I meant but didn't make very clear in my comment.
The above are just two examples of 'famous' resorts/ski areas. There are plenty more big name resorts and other gems throughout the Alps and Pyrenees...
On the subject of skiing in Germany, people do ski there (including x country skiing) so take a peek at the websites for Garmisch and Oberstdorf (two of their larger ski areas) if you are still interested 
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