 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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David E Goldsmith, I remember being utterly spooked at the time and don't think I can bring myself to watch the videos.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The reconstruction is very graphic and therefore quite horrific. I'm trying to work out who put the documentary together - it's a very thorough piece of work, involving actors and animation, and includes interviews with German/Austrian witnesses and British experts etc.
It's quite surprising that this is up on YouTube, since it's obviously an expensive production. Anyone know if it's had an airing on a TV channel?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I'll never forget it. I had just arrived home in Munich from Japan and went up to bed to sleep. My wife came up and told me there had been some kind of accident in the funicular in Kaprun, and I thought it won't be anything serious. A couple of hours later she came and told me that they were all dead because there had been a fire in the tunnel. I just couldn't believe that a train that has no engine, no fuel, nothing flammable could catch fire like that. Incredible. I had been on that train many times and had always thought it was completely safe. How wrong you can be!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hurtle, seconded
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I also remember being spooked when this occurred and I wasn't even a skier at the time!!
I rode on a funiculaire, Funiculaire Grande Motte in Tignes Val Claret, for the first time in April this year and thought about this tragedy then and got a little bit apprehensive about the short journey.
Really glad I watched that now to see how this actually happened.
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Awesome documentary!! Difficult to know how anybody could have foreseen this disaster. Those 15 folks in the dock but acquitted must be carrying huge burdens of guilt. And the relatives get no justice - just unimaginely terrible,
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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DAVID SNELL, what do you mean by 'relatives getting no justice'? Do you think they should have some sort of revenge? Why? It doesn't get the dead back alive. Of course, an appropriate sentence where there has been crass negligence offers a measure of society's disapproval, and acts as a deterrent - but they are rather different matters. Relatives 'getting justice' strikes me as modern media-speak. Sounds impressive, but the meaning is not obvious.
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I thought the lack of safety equipment in the funicular (especially fire extinguishers and perhaps an intercom to speak to driver or control room) were omissions that shouldn't have relied on hindsight to see their necessity.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rob@rar, it's a moot point. The Kitzsteinhorn funicular was one of the first underground skilifts of its type. I think it may even have been the first. I recall riding it in the summer of 1976, when it was fairly new. At the time of the disaster, several others had then been built - Zermatt, Saas Fee, Val d'Isere, Tignes, Les Deux Alpes etc - but as I recall each of these went through safety upgrades after the disaster. Any relative judgement of the point you're making would have to look at whether fire extinguishers (or intercoms, smoke alarms) existed in the passenger compartments of those other lifts. Not sure.
The Cairngorm funicular, which opened in the year after the disaster, was modified (as I recall) because of the Kaprun tragedy. It only has a short tunnel section towards the top station.
I think the main blame attached to the design of the heater etc. There's something on this on the Wikipedia page on the disaster, plus a slightly different (I think) take on how and why the doors opened in the end:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaprun_disaster
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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achilles,
You are right - perhaps I should have said closure not justice. I certainly do not mean revenge. I agree with your take on situation. No offence meant.
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| David E Goldsmith wrote: |
| rob@rar, it's a moot point. |
Not IMO. It seems fairly sensible to me that any transport system which confines passengers and separates them from the operator/driver needs, as a minimum, a channel of communication to and from the passengers (even if it's only a stop cord) and rudimentary fire extinguishing capability. I'm sure underground metro and rail systems had these for a long time before funiculars were built for accessing ski slopes. The fact that other ski funiculars might not have had these features at the time Kaprun's was installed doesn't, IMO, mean it was acceptable for Kaprun's system also to not have them.
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You know it makes sense.
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Part 5 above covers the trial briefly - all 16 defendants acquitted in 2004 - but I seem to recall that German lawyers pursued a civil claim. Don't know the outcome of that, and whether blame for negligence was ever successfully pinned on the operators.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Just watched the first few videos  Can't believe there was no means of forcing open the doors in an emergency or any communication either with the control room or the attendant at the front.
David E Goldsmith, this train wasn't the original one from 1976 but a new modern one - they did say the date but I can't remember.
The Times (newspaper) initially suggested boarders could have been to blame for lighting up in the train....
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Poster: A snowHead
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The Kitzsteinhorn Glestcherbahn was heavily modernised in the 90's, so it's not the original carriages that were involved in the disaster, but the 'fail-safe' hydraulic e-brakes in the new funicular carriages contributed to the disaster by providing fuel (hydraulic oil). They also prevented the train being reversed out of the tunnel or reaching the mid-station.
I gather that the lack of extinguishers, intercoms, smoke alarms and emergency door releases were compliant with Austrian Safety guidelines at the time, the potential for someone setting off an extinguisher in such a confined space packed with people was considered a hazard on such funiculars for which no-one believed that a funicular with no fuel, no engine and no mains electricity on-board could catch fire!
With respect to the CairnGorm Funicular, all railways in the UK fall under the remit of HMRI (Her Majesty's Railways Inspectorate) including the funicular for commissioning, so fire extinguishers, intercom in the lower compartments and door releases where required from the outset. The Ptarmigan Restaurant is also legally classified as an Underground Station, thus had to comply with the safety recommendations that followed the Kings Cross disaster. There is a massive 'dry start' fire fighting system in the Ptarmigan and the Tunnel, with sufficient water stored in the building to prime the system and operate it for over 40minutes even without any input of new water from the Marquis Well and/or Fiaicaill Pump House.
The CairnGorm Tunnel itself is of shallower gradient and a small fraction of the length of the Kitzsteinhorn funicular. As others who have used the Kitzsteinhorn funicular will know, the train was very small height and width wise in a very restricted narrow bore tunnel, at CairnGorm the tunnel is wide due to the funicular running on a wide gauge rather than narrow gauge track (reason for the width is the wind!). So whereas the Kitzsteinhorn funicular was narrow and long, the CairnGorm one is short and wide.
The CairnGorm Funicular is also open inside between compartments, unlike the Kitzsteinhorn which had solid bulkheads, there is only one attendant compartment at the top, but the attendant can see the full length of the car. Very different in just about every aspect.
None the less, it was very grim and unsettling viewing. The horror of those even in the bottom compartment when the train stopped and they already knew what was happening is just unimaginable. I thought the worst thing that you could ever have to worry about on that train was your ears popping in the tunnel!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Seconds from Disaster is a National Geographic TV series examining past disasters. You can see other episodes on youtube as well (Comet Air crash, the Challenger & Columbia pace shuttle accidents, the avalanche that wipe out a village etc.).
Though most disaster they examine happened quite a while back. I guess they have to wait for the court trial to pass and evidence become available.
Quite amazing series. Yes, I've seen this particular one TV twice in the past year or two.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Talking about changes made in trains after Kaprun disaster, makes me think about my favorite, ok not favorite but it's just hour away from my home so it's kinda favorite, glacier place, Molltaler glacier. It's only way to get to glacier, so you don't have much other chances then use "train", if you want to ski.
I admit I was never paying much attention to this, but to be honest, I don't remember I would see any fire extinguisher or any communication devices in carts. Tunnel is almost 5km long, and train is in tunnel all the time, so it's even longer one then Kaprun was, but in general it was very similar thing. Except that it doesn't have, or at least I didn't notice them, any heater in carts  But as far as safety equipment goes, I don't think it's much different then Kaprun was. I guess safety standards are different for normal trains then they are for trains used for "fun".
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FAQ
