 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Get the transceiver that you find easiest to use. So at this point, you need to find a store that has really knowledgeable staff, I mean proper ones, that study this stuff, use it and regularly practice with it. I know one such person, Raph in Sports Alpins Chamonix, email him, he'll help you as long as you need by correspondence, reduce the selection and then you can go get some practical testing in a good store.
Then you must focus as much as you can on the one you find simplest and easiest to use. Pointless having an awesome looking bit of kit with a million features for something you never ever want to use, and that when you do, it needs to be quickly and effectively employed.
Now speak with someone like him, I think he is the best there is at this kit, really, screw the advice you get all over the shop about what Harry or Sally bought, chances are they got stitched up or carried away, don't slip up validating their bad purchases.
Take your time and if it turns out you do by the highest tech, highest price piece of kit out there, then suck it up and practice with it every week. The day you need it could change your life forever, in a positive or a negative way.
Good luck.
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The test ideas like this are great too, but only if there are a variety of models available. Also consider what your friends use, it can help when learning as each can explain little issues to the other. Arvas on the whole do not have to be the same to be compatable.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As mentioned above, the one you find easiest to use, but it can be difficult to try them all out enough.
The DTS Tracker is a great transceiver for the less experienced. My 9 year old nephew is a wizard with his. It's what I supply to my clients.
For the more experienced the Barryvox Pulse remains unsurpassed, and is particularly good at multiple burials.
Don't buy a plastic bladed shovel, make sure it has a metal blade. Avalanches can set like concrete, plastic shovels are for digging the car out.
The important thing with all transceivers is to practise with them, they are all a bit of an art, and not quite as easy to use as the marketing blurb makes out.
All Transceivers are compatable with each other
Rob Evans @ Ellis Brigham in Manchester (Castlefield) knows his stuff, but I know he has the same opinion as me.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Alan McGregor, thanks, will call into EB castlefields , thats a good place to start for me.
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If you have not already found this link, then the reviews/come tests are pretty good on:
http://beaconreviews.com/transceivers/ however this might confuse you even more, information overload 
as everyone has said above the most important thing is to practice LOTS
There are a few changes for the coming season, the very popular Ortovox D3 will become the Ortovox Patroller Digital and the new player is the Ortovox 3 + which looks so far very intresting but none of us have used a full production model yet.
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Alan McGregor, Pulse system (heart rate detection not, signal fine), not compatable with others, but signals yes, just wanted that to be clear.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I recall when practising with a guide earlier this year, he mentioned that with a couple of the newer models you need to be sure that you have the latest version of the relevant software for the transceiver. That might mean you may need to be careful with anything with a reduced price.
Can anyone add anything to this?
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In the UK Lockwoods in Leamington are worth visiting/talking to for this sort of stuff.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Alan McGregor wrote: |
| ......Don't buy a plastic bladed shovel, make sure it has a metal blade. Avalanches can set like concrete..... |
How many skiers caught in a 'concrete'-like avalanche one are you aware of who were not dead when dug out with a metal shovel that a polycarbonate one would not have coped with? Avalanche Skier POV Helmet Cam Burial & Rescue in Haines, Alaska from TahoeChappy This skier was jolly grateful some one had a 'plastic shovel' with him.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I strongly agree with the advice to get a metal shovel. Plastic ones just don't hack it when digging regular snow if you get down more than a couple of feet, never mind compacted avy debris.
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| richjp wrote: |
I recall when practising with a guide earlier this year, he mentioned that with a couple of the newer models you need to be sure that you have the latest version of the relevant software for the transceiver. That might mean you may need to be careful with anything with a reduced price.
Can anyone add anything to this? |
Barryvox Pulse had a software bug pre v3 software that meant it ended up searching for itself.
With any of the fancy digital ones, don't buy a model that is new that season. All the manufacturers have been having software problems.
All the more reason to stick to a relatively simple tried & tested model.
A plastic shovel is better than none. But if you are starting from scratch why not get what is going to make your life easiest.
On an average burial you are going to have to move over a ton of snow.
If your digging team is not efficient you are going to have to move it twice.
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, but the question has not been answered - and with your time in the Alps you are well placed - how many skiers caught in a 'concrete'-like avalanche one are you aware of who were not dead when dug out with a metal shovel that a polycarbonate one would not have coped with? In the link I gave of a survived avalanche burial - the plastic shovel clearly worked fine.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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achilles, I'm in the happy position of never having had to dig someone out of an avalanche. But I have dug quite a few snow pits and dug out buried backpacks, in fresh snow as well as avy debris, using both plastic and metal shovels. The difference between the two is marked in terms of digging efficiency. I am happy to accept the very firm advice I've been given by two IFGM guides (who were assessing me, including digging skills) and another couple of BASI Trainers who all said don't, whatever you do, buy a plastic shovel when you can get a metal blade for very similar money, not last because it matches with my experience of digging. That, for me at least, is significantly more persuasive than the video you linked to (as I said the last time you linked it).
Out of interest, how deep do you think that skier was buried if there was still light getting through to his helmetcam?
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Poster: A snowHead
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achilles, I'm not sure what point you are trying to make unless its some Goldsmithian battle to prove that metal shovels are an evil conspiracy when plastic will do. Plastic better than none but when almost every avalanche professional I've ever seen or spoken to advocates metal I tend to believe them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Due to the melting effect of the friction as it moves down the slope and then refreezing when it stops almost all avi debris sets up pretty hard. As rob@rar, says why bother with poly if you can get metal for almost the same cost. Having had to do a bit of digging when it mattered and a lot more for snow pits etc I can tell you the difference is more than theoretical. Rescue teams carry heavy steel spades and shovels because that is what is needed to get the job done.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| achilles wrote: |
| rob@rar, but the question has not been answered - and with your time in the Alps you are well placed - how many skiers caught in a 'concrete'-like avalanche one are you aware of who were not dead when dug out with a metal shovel that a polycarbonate one would not have coped with? In the link I gave of a survived avalanche burial - the plastic shovel clearly worked fine. |
How on earth would you know ?
Over the years I've had to dig out 4 bodies, 2 died from ride trauma, 2 appeared to have died from asphyxiation.
I have no idea if any of them might have survived if I had got to them a minute or two quicker.
I don't know anybody personaly whose life has been saved by wearing a car seat-belt. I still wear one.
Metal shovels are of a similar weight & price to plastic ones. Ask any mountain professional, its easier & quicker to dig with a metal blade.
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Avalanches/Avalanche-Survival-Curve
I'm sure everyone has seen an avalanche survival curve, time is paramount, metal blades are quicker.
To put it into perspective ...
I am not suggesting everyone throws their plastic shovels away & rushes out to buy a metal one.
Just when the time comes to get a new shovel, buy a metal one.
The kits I supply my clients have a mixture.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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richjp,
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I recall when practising with a guide earlier this year, he mentioned that with a couple of the newer models you need to be sure that you have the latest version of the relevant software for the transceiver. That might mean you may need to be careful with anything with a reduced price.
Can anyone add anything to this?
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This is correct the Pulse had some issues with the software which have now been sorted and also the Ortovox S1 has had a couple of software updates, it is worth sayig that these updates have been to sort out issues which might arise in specific situations, it did not mean that the transceiver did not work. Both these transceivers were breaking new ground when they were launched. Reduced price is not always an indication of older models, but IMHO avoid ebay like the plague for transceivers.
With regards to shovels, plastic shovels do work its not that they dont, its just that metal alu shovels are better, in the last few seasons the alu shovels have become more reasoanable price wise and also lighter.
Rescue teams as mentioned above, use different shovels, as well as being heavier they have a bigger blade, which shifts more snow per action, but this would not be practical to put in a pack and wears you out really quickly due to the weight per shovel full, digging is a art in itself as well.
O and the poor old probe often gets overlooked, most are pretty good but again IMO the best length would be 240
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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if i ever ski with you, achilles, i will carry your plastic shovel and you can carry my metal one. deal?
here's a test of a few metal shovels (for some reason the pages are in reverse order) which puts into context the pounding that a shovel can take when digging someone out:
http://www.voile-usa.com/avalanche_review_shovel_test.pdf
"Plastic shovels were not studied because they usually break in cold temperatures and hard debris before the first subject can be recovered."
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| Ask any mountain professional, its easier & quicker to dig with a metal blade. |
Not really true - a plastic or metal shovel will have the same surface area.
However plastic is a more brittle material - and thus likely to break.
Especially if your using the shovel for other stuff on a regular basis (say snow pits or digging out the car etc).
As for essential kit, Get this book - and read it several times!
Then consider a practical course in snow safety as well.
http://www.freeskiing.nu/
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Tue 10-08-10 10:22; edited 2 times in total
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| Alan McGregor wrote: |
| .....I don't know anybody personaly whose life has been saved by wearing a car seat-belt. I still wear one....... |
I did know someone dug out of an avalanche (though I did not know what type blade the shovels were used  ). I carry an Ortovox orange-bladed shovel in case a mate goes in. I have no illusions that the said mate will survive if he is in some of the debris I have seen though - whatever shovel I am carrying. That said if I were buying now, I might get one of these.
I have been in a glider that crashed. The glider was written off - the bottom of the front fuselage had been ripped away, including the seat squab - I was held in place to the bulkhead solely by the harness. I am certain that the harness saved me form severe injury, and read this experience across to using seatbelts in a car.
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| achilles wrote: |
| That said if I were buying now, I might get one of these. |
Quite a short handle. I've used the Pro Alu II from Ortovox a couple of times and it allowed me to move more snow than the BCA Tour shovel that I own. If I was replacing my shovel that's what I'd go for providing the collapsed handle length fitted my backpack.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles, Did you read the above review. The Grizzly cracked under testing.
A D shaped handle Voille. Accept no substitute.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Ask any mountain professional, its easier & quicker to dig with a metal blade. |
Not really true - a plastic or metal shovel will have the same surface area.
However plastic is a more brittle material - and thus likely to break.
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I've never seen a polycarbonate shovel break. I did once see a Black Diamond metal one crumple when the user tried to stamp it into some very firm debris.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ok guys , i will go with the consensous ( i make it about ten to one in favour) and get an alu shovel and a 2.4m probe, and as for the transiever am going to EB tomorrow for a first look then will hope to get a chance to do some training and simulation in the uk sometime soon before actually making my purchase in the autumn , thanks for all the advice and links etc 
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Haggis_Trap,
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As for essential kit, Get this book - and read it several times!
Then consider a practical course in snow safety as well.
http://www.freeskiing.nu/
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Jimmy's book is the bible and beautifully produced as well.
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You know it makes sense.
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jimmjimm, no, I missed that - thanks for pointing it out.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
Jimmy's book is the bible and beautifully produced as well. |
Jimmy's book is undoubtedly the definitive mountaincraft manual.
However it can be a little daunting for a newcomer !
If you are in EB anyway, have a look at 2 little Cicerone books called 'Snow' and 'Avalanche'
... Particularly the 'Avalanche' one, it has a handy points based risk assessment card.
And as others have mentioned ...
Get some on-snow training, this is even more important than the books.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Particularly the 'Avalanche' one, it has a handy points based risk assessment card.
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agree with that one, really nice little book, a lot of the others have too much info. langmuirs book is quite good as well but again almost too thorough.
Neilski, In my very limited knowledge I would suggest learning probing and digging techniques and practice probing and digging out as well as searching. takes longer to dig out than find and unless you can do that effectively (as a team) the best transceiver isnt going to make a huge difference. personally i would get a very simple transceiver and the best metal shovel i could find. ARNO's link is worth a read.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I like the Jimmy Oden book a lot and have used it extensively over the past couple of years ski-bumming. Almost everything in there is bang on and the level of detail is far in excess of the needs of the casual ski bum. This is especially true of the climbing and alpinism techniques outlined. As a general introduction, I don't think it can be bettered.
As an avalanche handbook, though, I think that http://www.amazon.com/PowderGuide-Managing-Avalanche-Tobias-Kurzeder/dp/0972482733?tag=amz07b-21 is also a good option. I found rules based decision making, rather than subjective analysis of the snowpack, to be very helpful when taking my first steps off piste (although it was Swirly's book). Props to Arno for the original recommendation.
I also did Mountain Tracks advanced course in Chamonix at the start of the season. The course is run by Matt, one of the partners in Mountain Tracks and Steve Jones, who has a hand in the Euro avalanche school. High quality native language instruction from people who really know about this stuff is invaluable. I cannot say enough nice things about them.
As an aside, I would be slightly careful with that shovel review link. It caused a bit of a stink between some of the manufacturers and Genswein & co. The manufacturers argued that you can demolish anything by using it inappropriately and stamping on the top of the blade constitutes inappropriate use. Some people feel that this is not a good digging technique for anything other than corpse recovery (and when your really sure you are digging for a dead one). I don't really have a point of view on this but feel it worth flagging the issue. See: http://www.tetongravity.com/forums/showthread.php?t=164810 (scroll down to Jonathan S. comments).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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gorilla, i'd agree on that shovel article. maybe i should have said when i posted it but IMV it does indicate what a beating a shovel can take. i'm dubious about a conclusion that anything that isn't a Voile shovel is inadequate, but i would be pretty confident that a plastic shovel will do worse than any of the metal shovels featured
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Some people feel that this is not a good digging technique for anything other than corpse recovery
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so when in a panic and digging out a mate or loved one you are going to make sure you dont use your shovel "inappropriately" if you hit ice or rocks. yet another reason not to buy a plastic shovel.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Arno, we're in violent agreement. The test methodology may or may not be flawed but if someone like Genswein is saying "I can't even be bothered to test this stuff" then that tells you everything you need to know. I think the plastic shovel argument still runs as there is little empirical work in this area and people are dependent on the word of guides, common sense and anecdote. Ttips has further interesting perspectives.
http://www.telemarktips.com/TeleNews69.html
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think some books & courses concentrate on the transceiver search part of an avalanche incident a little too much.
It is worth practising / getting trained / at least thinking about dealing with the incident as a whole.
Things like ...
Exposing yourself to risk
Appointing a leader
Allocating resources - going for help, searching, digging
Efficient & safe digging / probing
What to do once you have dug them out
First Aid
Post-incident Stress
Set yourself up an incident.
Take your time, work your way through, thinking about everything
Now repeat, against the clock.
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skimottaret, the link only refers to metal shovels. Plastic shovels were not considered robust enough to be worth testing. The manufacturers were defending the robustness of commonly used alu shovels.
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You can buy shovels in La Plagne
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, 
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FAQ
and would like to purchase my own avi equipment, it would be for lift served off piste / backcountry day trips . i already own an ortovox backpack so getting a shovel and probe to fit shouldn't be too taxing, even for me, but could do with some advise on which transciever would be best for the job 
