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British ski market falls another 11% - Crystal Ski Report 2009/2010 (with link)

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:
11% down overall. 13% fall in the independent sector. 10% fall in the tour operator market. 9% fall in the schools market. France sees a 4% reduction in its market share.

It comes on the back of a 13.3% overall fall the season before in 2008/09.

Full story from Planetski
http://www.planetski.eu/news/1856

Maths not my forte but in anybodys book I reckon that's a drop of nearly a quarter over the last two seasons Confused

EDIT:
Full CRYSTAL report can be found here:

http://mag.digitalpc.co.uk/fvx/crystal/sir2010/


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 14-07-10 16:40; edited 3 times in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
I wonder how that compares with other overseas holidays; an item on the news this morning said they were down. There were a lot of local comments in Les Saisies last year that visitor spending was down, but that would mostly have been French and other European visitors (because there aren't many Brits). the restaurants weren't doing well at all,

It's hardly surprising, is it, given the strength of the euro and some daft prices in the big French resorts?
ski holidays
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I do not know if the overall figure is down! Most people I know tend to go DIY these days! I still go 3 - 5 times a year! Only twice in the last 5 years have I used a package holiday! I assume that Crystal is suffering because their market has changed! It would be interesting to know how many times regular skiers on this site use a package in a % term in the last 5 years?
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Roy Hockley, Just the point I was about to make! In the last 5 years probably only 25% (or less) of my ski trips have been package trips.
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I'm not surprised fewer are going. Exchange rate has been very bad and at the same time those who have been lucky enough to keep jobs have had bonuses cut and pay frozen. Has so far affected the private sector more but now the public sector seems set to follow.

Lift prices in france seem to be heading for £200 in the larger ski areas..it is becoming more expensive to buy a lift pass than travel from the UK to the alps. Whereas in previous years we have bought our children the odd souvenir eg a sweatshirt in resort there is no way we were going to get one this year at a price of around 40 euros. Next year we will be even more careful when eating out having ended up in a fairly ordinary looking restaurant this time where all the main courses were priced at 20 euros. No wonder there was only one other couple in the restaurant.

As a family we still love our skiing holidays and have cut back on summer holidays in order to keep skiing. Summer hols have been downgraded from luxury family hotel to camping in our own tent.
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Well I've already booked one holiday with Crystal for next season and I'm about to potentially book another. So I'll keep the British TO market going! Very Happy

In actual fact the report states that the independent sector has fallen by more than the TO sector.

As for skiing in France, that has been off my radar for over 10 years. The last time I went there was in 2000 and it took me two years to pay off the resultant overdraft. Lesson learned.
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Boredsurfing, Has anyone got a full copy of the report? There were a number of assumptions going back over a number of years about the size of the 'Independent' market capacity that were incorrect ( mathematical errors and assumptions about growth). It would be good explore those again .. whilst TOs would have no mileage in demonstrating a major shift towards independents I cant believe that the authors would do it deliberately. A 25% fall in numbers seems a lot ... but 2009 leisure visits were down 15% according to stats so that would tie up with Winter 2009 from the stats ... so only the mix that would appear open to question?
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
The real question is whether the laws of supply and demand are going to kick in here. We have already seen the TOs dramatically cut their supply of accomodation in 09/10 to keep the prices propped up but will there be a shift in prices to try and stimulate demand again?
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kosciosco, doesnt appear to be, but the clever little independents are - DIY is sooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much cheaper and you get so much more for your money.
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Agenterre, Its not on the net yet, previous years its come 'out' around the 20th of the month.
I guess the trade and press versions are out ahead of release.
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Quote:

A 25% fall in numbers seems a lot

but it's true and I believe it knocks the numbers back to where they were in 2005/6 - so the strong growth of a couple of seasons has been levelled, much like many other parts of the economy. Could have been worse, this adjustment happened in great snow years. I reckon it'll continue to drop too.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
DIY doesn't work for everyone. And for those of us for whom it doesn't, we need a good supply of choice and value offered by TOs.
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Boredsurfing, will be keeping an eye out for the full report, the pre reports tend to go for the sensational stuff, typical media response.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I thought it was very noticeable last winter. In Les Deux Alpes at Easter, where I'd also been for the previous 3 Easters, it was far quieter than in previous years. It's not just UK TO numbers that are down but also UK DIY's and visitors from all other countries too.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
queen bodecia wrote:
DIY doesn't work for everyone. And for those of us for whom it doesn't, we need a good supply of choice and value offered by TOs.


..and if TOs only cater to those who "need" them the chances of choice and value are much reduced in the longer term. I'd suggest that TOs could be doing more to recapture those lost to DIY by showing more creativity. Proper short breaks maximising skiing/days off would be a start (blended with bargain mid-week filler trips for those with more flexible working patterns).

I question how anyone can accurately capture the size of the independent market - if I fly to San Francisco is that a ski trip or not? If I fly to Geneva with hand luggage only am I going skiing or on a business trip? If I have a season pass somehwere do each of my 5 visits count separately or is it just one?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Quote:

I question how anyone can accurately capture the size of the independent market

obviously not an exact science but there are ways and means of arriving at a goodish guess. Firstly, some countries like Austria are religious about recording bed nights, nationality etc and producing data. Size of the tour op market is pretty much known so, in the case of somewhere like Austria, it's a case of deducting the TO bit from the overall figure. Some US & Canadian resorts have a handle on where their customers are coming from and how many are tour op (lift pass deals etc). A bloke at dover Harbour board used to employ someone to count roof boxes at the port and at Eurotunnel to see who was getting the market share. But, I agree, there must be a good deal of finger in the air going on.
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Cost and the exchange rate must be a factor. Our week away in the snow seems to have gone up alot since we started going regularly in 2003. This may be due to the exchange rate over the last 2 years I expect. However, while looking for half term accomodation this season there was already a number of places I looked at fully booked a month or so ago, so it must be the out of school holiday demand that is suffering?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Don't think i've had a ski holiday that would've shown up on Crystals radar for 3 years. Doubt i'll be taking one that would count either in the near future. Think that these stats say more about the state of TO's rather than the state of the industry as a whole.
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Given the recession and the exchange rate is this really surprising at all? I would've been very surprised if it hadn't fallen by +5%
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Local restaurateurs all report poor business last winter,although the visitors were still here, and my apartment was fully booked from start to end of season. I can tell that more meals were consumed in the apartment, as I've had to replace some of the kitchen equipment.
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Exchange rate is crap and Europe is a rip off, especially France!
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Boredsurfing wrote:
Maths not my forte but in anybodys book I reckon that's a drop of nearly a quarter over the last two seasons Confused

Maybe they should put the prices down.
Just a thought
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johnboy, the actual euro prices in France have not altered that much, and in some cases have actually fallen due to a reduction in TVA on food in restaurants.
Exchange rate has also improved recently. Exchange rates for Canada and US are also far worse than they were.
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Bode Swiller wrote:
Quote:

I question how anyone can accurately capture the size of the independent market

obviously not an exact science but there are ways and means of arriving at a goodish guess. Firstly, some countries like Austria are religious about recording bed nights, nationality etc and producing data. Size of the tour op market is pretty much known so, in the case of somewhere like Austria, it's a case of deducting the TO bit from the overall figure. Some US & Canadian resorts have a handle on where their customers are coming from and how many are tour op (lift pass deals etc). A bloke at dover Harbour board used to employ someone to count roof boxes at the port and at Eurotunnel to see who was getting the market share. But, I agree, there must be a good deal of finger in the air going on.


La Plagne conducts random sampling, giving you a clipboard with multi choice questions and answers sheet that can be computer read. I guess they get a lot of their stats from that. No doubt replicated through all of Compagnie des Alpes resorts and collated centrally.
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It would be interesting to know how the stats were collected, but presumably some kind of survey. There are very well established survey methods for road traffic, international arrivals/departures etc. They don't necessarily need to know each one of us took our ski holidays provided their sample methodology is sound.
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livetoski wrote:
Boredsurfing, will be keeping an eye out for the full report, the pre reports tend to go for the sensational stuff, typical media response.


Full Crystal report here

http://mag.digitalpc.co.uk/fvx/crystal/sir2010/
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Shimmy, you are repeating a mantra that others (Paulio for instance) keep repeating about DIY being cheaper, but when pressed no-one has ever given me an example on a like for like basis that is cheaper.

As I've said before, I need 2 rooms (2 adults, 2 kids) half or chalet board in a clean, comfortable chalet or hotel with flights from Scotland and transfers during the school holidays. This festive period there are no TO flights left from Scotland, Skiworld from Manchester to Val D'Isere is £2600 with 2 half price lift passes (not included in that price). Travelling on 2 Jan.

I tried and failed to come anywhere close to that DIY, but I would love to be proved wrong.

No objection to DIY, happy to do that for 4 night boys trip (don't have much choice).
ski holidays
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Boredsurfing wrote:
livetoski wrote:
Boredsurfing, will be keeping an eye out for the full report, the pre reports tend to go for the sensational stuff, typical media response.


Full Crystal report here

http://mag.digitalpc.co.uk/fvx/crystal/sir2010/


Thanks for the link. This doesn't sound like it's the best time to start a new ski school...
snow conditions
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rob@rar, The boss of Crystal is convinced that things are looking good ahead.
snow conditions
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Boredsurfing, he always says that.
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Lizzard, He would wouldnt he Toofy Grin
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:

while looking for half term accomodation this season there was already a number of places I looked at fully booked a month or so ago, so it must be the out of school holiday demand that is suffering?


I agree, if our place in Val Thorens is anything to go by. We received a booking for Feb half term (2011) week in the first week of March this year Shocked - long before we began to have enquiries about any other weeks for next season.
snow conditions
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The report is being produced by Crystal so unsurprisingly shows their business in a good light compared to other operators and smaller companies. Does anyone compile a more objective report?

Also Crystal reckon that people who ski are not affected that badly by the budget. How on earth do they come to that conclusion?
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snowymum, what they seem to have done is drastically reduced the number of Thomson branded holidays and switched them to Crystal. Overall a TUI reduction but looks better.
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Roy Hockley wrote:
I do not know if the overall figure is down! Most people I know tend to go DIY these days! I still go 3 - 5 times a year! Only twice in the last 5 years have I used a package holiday! I assume that Crystal is suffering because their market has changed! It would be interesting to know how many times regular skiers on this site use a package in a % term in the last 5 years?



The UK and European Summer and Winter tourism industries have been battered by the Great Recession since 2008.

The Crystal report is atleast in the ballpark.
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snowymum, because skiers are middle class types with wads of cash.
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I agree with Ghostdog as to the difficulty in matching TOs prices - especially in French resorts such as Courchevel , Val D'Isere etc .

If you take off £40 pp for the shared saving on the lift passes then his cost is £610 each.

We are also going to Val D'Isere that week - 2nd Jan - and I have to DIY . In a chalet 40m from pistes we are paying £440 pp . Plus driving cost - family of 4 , say £600 all in - we are only just below Ghostdog's price , and without any of the TO protections such as get you home when clouds of ash appear etc.


I understand the margins in the travel industry have always been low - demonstrated by the fact that the chalet we are going to was for many years run by Finlays until they ceased trading earlier this year.

John
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After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Ghost Dog,
Quote:

Shimmy, you are repeating a mantra that others (Paulio for instance) keep repeating about DIY being cheaper, but when pressed no-one has ever given me an example on a like for like basis that is cheaper


I don't know about your requirements and calculations but last year someone posted a similar statement and there were many suggestions that were cheaper on a DIY basis.
Personally I find that some tour operator deals are very cheap indeed, particularly those booked last minute. School holiday time though I usually find it far cheaper DIYing, I usually fly from Edinburgh but pretty much invariably self cater rather than chalet or hoteling. When you book your flights does make a biog difference, If you don't get in early for the cheaper flights the price can jump dramatically.
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Ghost Dog, 1) Residence Les Nereides in Belle Plagne, ski in - ski out self catering apartments

2) luxury chalet La Giettaz, off the beaten track but the whole "package" and low cost makes it fantastic value for money. Self catering again but does include brekfast.

Flights to Chambery with snowjet.

Those were our last two holidays. Two adults, two kids think both were about £1500 for all four of us to include flights, transfers and accomm. EDIT: forgot - first one was in school hols...26/12/09, second was not.


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 15-07-10 10:56; edited 1 time in total
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Ghost Dog wrote:
Shimmy, you are repeating a mantra that others (Paulio for instance) keep repeating about DIY being cheaper, but when pressed no-one has ever given me an example on a like for like basis that is cheaper.

As I've said before, I need 2 rooms (2 adults, 2 kids) half or chalet board in a clean, comfortable chalet or hotel with flights from Scotland and transfers during the school holidays. This festive period there are no TO flights left from Scotland, Skiworld from Manchester to Val D'Isere is £2600 with 2 half price lift passes (not included in that price). Travelling on 2 Jan.


DIY can be cheaper - depending on requirements. I don't think you will get a half-board package cheaper DIY either.

Self-catering is another matter - but a lot of people go on holiday to have their cooking done for them.

As have said before on many occassion - whatever suits.
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