BASI courses

A snowHead

hi - i'm new to this forum and not sure if this is the right place to post this, but it seemed the most likely.

i am thinking of doing a BASI level 1 course at the snowdome. I was once told that this qualification didnt allow you to teach out on the mountain unless you were supervised by as level 2 or higher - but some friends of mine have done the level 1 course and have been employed by skiing europe last season and the one before and have been teaching groups of skiiers out on the mountain on their own.

first i wondered if there was any insurance issue here and second i wondered what BASIs view on level 1 instructors teaching on the mountain would be? if i get my BASI level 1 can i teach or not ?

thanks

A snowHead

BASI's Level 1 does not qualify you to teach on the mountain. It qualifies you to teach in a "closed environment" only, i.e. a snowdome or a artificial slope. I don't think you will be covered by BASI's liability insurance (nor by any company employing you as an L1 teaching on the mountain) should you be sued.

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thanks rob@rar - like i said i have some mates who are BASI 1 and are teaching on the mountain with skiing europe and they have met quite a few other BASI 1 instructors doing the same thing.
like i said i thought they weren't allowed to so i am surprised first that people are employing them and second that they are even applying for work knowing they shouldn't be doing it. i'd think they could be in trouble with BASI for doing this? Any BASI officials on here would like to comment?

if their student had a bad accident then i suppose the instructor would have no insurance cover unless they took out third party themselves. Though this could be invalidated because they weren't allowed to teach then?

I was hoping to do my L1, then my L2 straight away, maybe in switzerland but thought there was no point in doing L2 if i can get the same work with L1.

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namwons, as Rob suggests and you allude to, there is an Insurance issue, but it's all about where the buck stops. In this case it's going to depend on the Employee Liability insurance of the company you mention, and the assumptions the issuer is making. However, it's not clear cut as I am aware of an employee liability insurer covering L1's to teach in a mountain environment - BUT it was not a UK insurance company.

In terms of professionalism, it's not what the qualification is designed for.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

without saying that you SHOULD be trying to teach on mountain, you CAN probably avoid getting sued by ensuring that the contract between yourself and your students is appropriately drafted - by getting acknowledgement that skiing/mountains are dangerous, conditions unpredictable, etc and exclude liability for all sorts of things (including, even, negligence on your part - but not "gross negligence"); note that just like driving while uninsured does NOT automatically mean you were negligent in, say, causing an accident, teaching while only having BASI 1 does NOT automatically mean you would be regarded as having been negligent if someone was injured on mountain. You should not, however, hold yourself out as being "fully qualified" to teach on mountain.

remember though: free legal advice is worth what you pay for it, and the laws relating to personal liability in e.g. France or Austria are likely to be different from those in England/Scotland.

You'd probably get paid more and get more satisfaction getting your BASI 2 also.

good luck with whatever you decide.

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namwons, I also know one L1 who taught in Switzerland and another who taught in Austria (although neither of them got many hours during the season and had to take other jobs, one cleaning chalets the other doing bar work, in order to earn enough money). Skiing Europe seem to be employing unqualified instructors - not fair on their clients IMO, and not fair on their instructors in the event of legal action where I don't think they will have any liability cover.

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boardiac, I agree with your comments about negligence. I think the insurance issue is only half the story, with the other half being breach of 'local' laws regarding ski teaching, something BASI allude to in their communication. And of course trying to ID exactly what the local legal situation is in the Valley can be pretty tricky, even if you think you are appropriately qualified.

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thanks for the replies - i'm not actually sure that skiing europe even check people's qualifications so there might even be an issue with people lying about what level theyve got !
Apart from people i know i think they employ quite a few other BASI 1 instructors and let them out on their own with clients though i dont know if skiing europe know this and maybe more immportant i don't know if there clients know this either. I don't know if other companies do this but my feeling was why go to all the trouble and expense of getting L2 when i can teach the couple of weeks a year i'm available with a L1 but i do appreciate your comments about doing L2

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It's probably worth a reminder that you are still personally responsible for your clients. If your insurance is invalid (or you have none) then you are still responsible and they may still claim against you personally - and take any assets you have. Also, it is law in this country that no clause in any contract may seek to limit responsibility for death.

These days, if you are in a dangerous environment with any group of people (whether paid clients or even just friends) and you have a greater knowledge of that environment then you are legally responsible for their welfare. If one of them has an accident then they (or a relative) may have a claim for damages against you personally. If you have a relevant qualification then you have some clearly identifiable knowledge.

The BMC covered this some time ago in their Summit magazine.

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altis, Good info. I must have a word with my SPA qualified 'mate' who let me fall off the other week Twisted Evil

While I was doing my Level 1 at the Chill Factore I met a young woman with an SPA. Although a keen climber she now refuses to go out with her university climbing club because of the responsibility I detailed above.

You know it makes sense.

sounds a bit scarey altis.. that could apply to lots of situations, even climbing a ladder!

can anyone answer this.. are BASI L1 told they can't teach on the mountain & are therefore going against BASI edicts if they do... & does it matter to BASI - like i mean, are you going to get in trouble if they find out ?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

As Rob@rar states, BASI 1 does NOT qualify you to teach on snow in a mountain environment. If you check directly with BASI they will confirm this. They will also confirm that if you do teach say for instance in Switerland, then you will not be covered by BASI's liability insurance, and you will be flouting local regulations. BASI will not support you in the event of an accident where you may be held personally liable. Teaching school kids is coming under increasing regulation and scrutiny. I have had to take over several classes this season where BASI 1s were found to be teaching. In all honesty it's far better for you and your class if you are properly qualified.

A snowHead

namwons, BASI won't care what you do, it's not up to them. But don't expect them to provide any professional support if something terrible happens, because you will be teaching outside the remit of your licence.

A snowHead

ok guys - thanks for the replies.. i'll probably look into doing the L2 as well then as after what you said it seems to me that it's pretty irresponsible & quite risky to be out teaching on the mountain when you aren't properly qualified to do it..

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

just got this from BASI :

Thank you for your email. The BASI Level 1 Instructor Qualification is purely an indoor qualification and people should not be able to work in an outdoor/snow environment with this endorsement. In terms of public liability whilst teaching, these people are not insured to work in such conditions.

So, NO you are not allowed to teach in the mountains with a BASI level 1 qualification. There are insurance issues – ie – you would not get public liability insurance whilst teaching. BASI will continue to provide this qualification SOLELY as an indoor qualification and the first step to getting your alpine Level 2 qualification which is the MINIMUM requirement for any member to work in a ski school overseas.

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

namwons, good on you for seeking "official" clarification. BASI are very clear on this and always have been, however, certain BASI level 1 instructors and certain School Ski Trip companies are still happy to put themselves and most importantly their clients at risk.

From your perspective, gaining your BASI level 2 will enhance your personal skiing/teaching skills.....and allow you to legitimately teach in the mountains.

Good luck......

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If Basi had left the Level 1 as the Trainee instructor course this problem would not arise because the current Level 1's would not be as easily recognised as instructors. Realistically these companies that use Level 1 instructors get away with it as their clients do not understand the Basi qualification system, to them an instructor is an instructor. It also can't help Basi's reputation in these places, some of the instructors that you see giving lessons are really not fit to be there. I encountered some shockers last year including one instructor who could not handle a bit of bumpy slush on a blue and another who openly admitted that they don't ski red runs as they find them too difficult. What happens when they are teaching in non perfect snow or if they have to ski backwards to help a client? Not sure I agree with non trainer's being allowed to teach in old Basi trainer jackets either, especially as it always seems to be the ones teaching the school groups.

namwons, go for the L2, it will open up many more opportunities for you with regards to employment in ski schools. Not many will touch you with just a L1. Good luck

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Wayne,

I didn't like to say...

You know it makes sense.

dig away, skiing europe is a cr*p outfit and uses under and unqualified teachers where they teach. if i was a parent of a student on one of their tours i wouldnt be happy

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

namwons, just to clairfy the reply you got from BASI, the L1 qualifies you to teach on articifical slopes, not just indoors. So you can work outdoors on dry slopes too.

Definitely worth progressing to your L2, and essential if you want to teach in the mountains. Don't view it as using up your holidays, it's a very enjoyable course!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

coming in a bit late on this one but i would say any instructor who applies for a job knowing they aren't qualified to do it is being dishonest and deserve any trouble they might find themselves in. I would have thought BASI would take a dim view of their instructors doing this...

Do the L1 & L2 namwons.. you'll have fun doing them, make new friends and be able to teach with a clear conscience & confidence in your own ability Happy

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