 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Good video!
Agreed that Lizeroux looks a little better in the air than Rolland does on the slalom course. Then again, I wouldn't want to be Lizeroux if the landing airbag wasn't there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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it also reminded my of Lizeroux's slightly weird skiing style - the skis seem to end up in the right place but not sure his arm position is out of the BASI manual
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sideshow_Bob, That clip is from the World 2009 CSCF DVD, that style of skiing has been toned down a lot on the World 2010 one.
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rjs, so racers aren't inclining any more and are skiing with level shoulders and hands? Not from almost all the races/free-skiing I've seen this season just gone.
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Sideshow_Bob, yeah but lizeroux almost looks like he's got his hands in his pockets! not arguing with his ability though and he's quite an exciting skier to watch too
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Sideshow_Bob, Ok, how would you contrast the styles of the Canadian racers between the two DVDs then ?
There are other clips on the 2009 one that have even more deliberate raising of the outside hand, it is discussed by the coaches, you see a lot less of it on the 2010 DVD.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Did the Canadian coaches do a BASI course? 
Haven't seen the 2010 DVD, are there clips anywhere online?
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Great vid, and it looked as though they were both having a lot of fun!  Lizeroux rocks! Arms - I'm sure he can perfectly well keep them wherever he wants, whenever he wants.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Arno, I like Lizeroux's first attempt. Back flip to forwards roly-poly! Dix points 
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| Arno wrote: |
| I reckon Lizeroux makes a slightly better fist of the park stuff than Rolland does of the SL |
Mmmmm, not sure. At least Rolland gets round the gates and it doesn't look like he's done much through gates before. Lizeroux wouldn't have landed much
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You know it makes sense.
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Mosha Marc, he'd have landed, but maybe just not the right way up...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FastMan, not that much counter, pretty square
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Poster: A snowHead
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FastMan, do you know when these videos were taken? Lots of inside hand on/near the deck action 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| FastMan, not that much counter, pretty square |
skimottaret, depends at what point in the turn you're observing. He's only square for a brief moment. It's simply a state he moves through, on his way from anticipated to countered, not one in which he hangs out in. It's just a single moment in time that's part of an entire movement package, and should be viewed in that context to best understand the big picture of what's happening here.
It's the classic rotational movement pattern of linked anticipation pivot turns.
| Quote: |
| FastMan, do you know when these videos were taken? Lots of inside hand on/near the deck action |
No, Bob, I don't. Just did a quick google of his name and came up with it. If you like "hand on snow", look around for some Ligety videos. He does it so much he should get gloves with edges on them. You've taken good notice of an important issue. Angulation does not necessarily mean level shoulders. At lower edge angles, yes, it may be the appropriate stance, but at higher edge angles it's a represents an enormous amount of angulation, more than is often needed.
The suggestion of leveling the shoulders is a good one for learning skiers, because it introduces the concept of angulation and encourages then into the movements needed to accomplish it. It's just not necessarily the reality as edge angles grow.
There can be plenty of angulation happening, even when the shoulders are not level to the snow. To identify it, project a line out of the outside shin, parallel to the shin and its angle to the snow. If the skier's head is not below that line, he/she is angulated. That angulation is coming from the knee, the hip, or a combination of the two.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mosha Marc, He said on the vid that he'd never skied a slalom course in his life.
skimottaret, Things are never black and white. You are not (or should not) either be countered all the time to the same degree or square all the time. Skiing is dynamic and as FastMan, says you move through diferent states of everything on your way round the turn. There is far too much of this "this what we're supposed to do, so that's it" going on. I am assuming that criticism of Lizeroux's arms by a holiday skier was tongue in cheek!
goes to the fluidity thread!
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| easiski wrote: |
I am assuming that criticism of Lizeroux's arms by a holiday skier was tongue in cheek!
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Clearly he'll never be a great skier with arms like that
But IME it is a fair comment on extremes of the "coached" look in skiing where skiers look like they are hugging a barrel or have a stick up their back at all times. The difficulty for the punter who is learning is what bits of the "look" are essential and self-assessing the extent to which trying to achieve the "look" is creating more problems than it solves. Obviously on a skills rather than form based approach such as you teach, people shouldn't be concerned if they look like a bag of spanners providing the fundamentals are right.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Things are never black and white
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who said they were ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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easiski, perhaps saying he doesn't look like he something out of the BASI manual is a comment on the BASI manual
anyway, it wasn't meant as a criticism - more a non-technical observation. hope that is OK
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 fatbob, that's the point, and you've hit the nail on the head! BASI have suffered for years from the criticism that we all look 'posed' because we have to conform to the 'look'. My arms are almost always where they're supposed to be BTW!  It is this insistance on the right shape rather than the good core skills that cause robotic skiers and a lack of ability to adapt to different situations in skiing. Trying to achieve either a particular manoevre or conform to a particular shape is putting the cart before the horse. People who acquire good core skills will be able to maintain a 'tidy' position because it will be natural and not forced.
The WC racers are the best skiers in the world, every aspiring ski teacher should watch every race and study what they do (to say nothing of listening to and taking in, comments by JCJC). It's like formula 1 - the benefits filter through to the rregular skiers, and we (coaches and instructors) should learn to watch and analyse and take away what's useful to us to use with our students.
WRT angulation, of course the amount of angulation vs inclination is a response to the speed and centrifugal force involved in the turn. Interesting pic from Pete Baker on Facebook of a bunch of BASI trainers recently Question now : which looks the most relaxed in the photo? OK it's not fair because they're all in different parts of the turn, but for my money it looks like no 3 in uniform (james Lister, who actually lives here - I didn't know that when I picked him) and he is the most banked. Also none of them are square andd most are pretty countered!!
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| easiski wrote: |
| BASI have suffered for years from the criticism that we all look 'posed' because we have to conform to the 'look'. |
I've been in the BASI system for about 4 years and before that had a lot of recreational instruction from instructors who were also BASI Trainers. I've never once been told that there is a particular body position or stance I must conform to. On some occasions there have been discussion about how stance, including arm position, can support or interfere with making effective movements, but this has never even come close to being "look like this or you won't pass your exams".
I will often tell people that I'm teaching that I don't really care what they do with their arms providing there is no detrimental effect on fundamental things like balance or timing or flow. But as I see pole plants interfering with the fundamentals fairly often, effective pole planting is something which needs to be addressed sooner or later.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| easiski wrote: |
| Mosha Marc, He said on the vid that he'd never skied a slalom course in his life. |
Ah, ha. I've no sound on at work, so good guess.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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 rob@rar, Well, maybe they've changed, but for many years they talked a good change and didn't do it.
When I passed my Grade 1 in 1992 Scot Frew (who's a really good skier) failed because he waved his arms around. Another guy failed because he banked like the french. I know someone who failed because they skied like an Austrian and another ditto because he skied like a Swiss! Yet another (a black guy) was forced to stuff a cushion down his back to make his (naturally) hollow back appear more rounded because they wouldn't accept that he couldn't achieve the rounded back position required because his backbone is a different shape. Ditto another blind in one eye who had to keep his head straight although this adversely affected his vision ... Shall I go on? Having passed my Grade 3 (Level 2) in 1972 and Grade 2 in 1974 upon returning to skiing around 1982 after a 6 year break, (married a NH jockey) I was saddened to see that despite what was being said about the feet and the foot skills being the important factor, nothing had actually changed. 
Phil was working on skill based stuff back in about 1990 and trying to change things then! Maybe he's finally succeeded, but you know it's not a question of whether you're told you have to look a certain way - just watch who passes and who fails! I really hope I'm wrong, but it is seriously a criticism levelled at BASI skiers generally by continental instructors.
Pic of me practising on Toura just before I passed in '92
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, I'm pretty certain things have changed a lot since then. I think Phil and similarly minded people eventually won the argument. There is a much closer interaction, for example, between the GB coaches and BASI Trainers to see what can be brought in to BASI's thinking from the race scene. IMO the people on courses with me who failed did so because they weren't up to the standard rather than they didn't conform to a particular style.
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easiski, 18 years is a long time ago.... for instance the team of coaching trainers are very strong ex racers and couldnt give a fig about old basi politics. in the 4 years i took courses never once heard anything about forms or style. i think continually bringing up last centuries mistakes just gives ammo to the anti instruction brigade... phil s. is long gone but the good work he started has carried on and been improved further.
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You know it makes sense.
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Of course BASI are looking for a certain style.
(If you want to make life tough then try pitching up for a BASI course on a set of 100mm wide skis, or even twin tips!)
Though to be honest it doesn't really matter...
At that level a good skier will be be able to adapt to what is required and the course expectations.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, rob@rar, I'm very happy to hear that, but unfortunately the lower level BASI instructors who work here still exhibit a certain stiffness and deliberation in their skiing that is not evident in the french at the same stage. Maybe this is because the french have to do TT before being allowed on a course - I don't know, but I am sooo disappointed when I see it.
No comments I note from you guys about the pic of BASI trainers. Come on - rise to the challenge!
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, I don't think those of us still working through the system will in case we happen to get one of them on a course!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Of course BASI are looking for a certain style.
(If you want to make life tough then try pitching up for a BASI course on a set of 100mm wide skis, or even twin tips!)
Though to be honest it doesn't really matter...
At that level a good skier will be be able to adapt to what is required and the course expectations. |
There must be something in this or we wouldn't have lots of agnosing threads about BASI changing their minds on recommended or mandatory radii etc I understand that no-one would want to make it harder on themselves than necessary when trying to achieve a pass but there must also be a counterview thet a good skier can do what they need to on more or less anything relatively modern.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, who's that in a mauve outfit in the pic you posted?
Knees-together position looks a bit old-style?
(but then again, I don't like analysis based on one pic only, especially if said pic is in a transition phase).
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horizon, that's Amanda Pirie, the only one in that group who raced on the World Cup circuit as far as I know. There's a danger in making too much of technique from a single photo.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rob@rar, precisely - that was sort of my point, I assumed that the "group leader" was a very good skier and I tried to show that looking at one pic can be deceiving.
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| Quote: |
(If you want to make life tough then try pitching up for a BASI course on a set of 100mm wide skis, or even twin tips!)
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Hmm, worked fine for me...
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another little factor on the picture of the trainers, around 50% of them were on really soft blunt rental skis as they had flown in from resorts for the weekend normally they would have been on race department skis but they didn't arrive in time
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The point is not to criticise the trainers, but given some of the recent posts on the 'counter' thread ... Often, what is held up as the 'ideal' as you go through the ranks, needs adjustment as you go further, and is not written in stone. constant adjustment and movement is what allows fluid skiing.
I posted the pic precisely because it shows a group of very good skiers not square, not because they're not skiing well, but because to be square all the time is not advantageous. Likewise to be extremely countered. However a certain amount of counter is required at certain points of the turn, the inside hand needs to go first, and the inside hip needs to be ahead of the outside one. This is beautifully demonstrated in the pic!
James Lister skied Europa cup and is a fabulous skier BTW.
fatbob, You're right of course. I remember one day on the Corrie Cas, wall to wall sheet ice and the rest of us were sliding around like beginners. Iain Finlayson skied down, holding his edges without raising a sweat, so we all thought he must have really sharp edges - no - it turned out he was skiing on his Sapporo Olympic downhill skis that hadn't been sharpened since (about 13 years or so). Amazing skiers are amazing whatever they're skiing on.
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| Quote: |
| Hmm, worked fine for me... |
L1 or L2 I guess ?
For L3 or L4 they expect candidates to demonstrate that they can ski in a certain way.
Especially for piste performance.
Not surprising - as the expected level of performance at the top end has to be well defined and also measurable.
Only way of doing this consistently is asking people to ski in a certain way.
Not worth getting stressed about, good skiers should be adaptable ?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 18-06-10 14:57; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
