OK, I've thought of another short thread to discuss.
I took on skis this year that were longer and stiffer and altogether harder to ski than my previous set.
Theoretically If I can end up skiing them as well as skiing the easier set will my skiing (or anyone else doing the same thing) overall have improved?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Megamum, IMHO, maybe, if they aren't so hard for you that they get in the way. No easy answer.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well yeah, because you'd have to improve to handle the bigger/stiffer skis. However, it will probably be a slower learning curve than on more appropriate skis.
N.B. My gut reaction is that I should end up an improved skier, I was interested to see if you agreed with me. N.B. I think I am skiing them as well as the previous set after about 2 weeks use.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
following on from clarky999, longer and stiffer isn't necessarily "better"...often just inappropriate...
My 2p. There's an awful lot of BS around skis and the match to the skier level propogated by ski manufacturers and probably augmented by notorious gearwhores on forums such as this (I include myself in the gearwhore category). I'd rather ski a ski I had until I was outskiing it than try to increase my skills on something that was too advanced for me. Logically trying to ski variable snow on a short slalom ski might make me a better skier but I don't think I'd be able to tolerate 2+ weeks of learning to get back to what I can already do on skis I have.
What you will certainly have is longer until you are outskiing your more advanced skis so you'll just have to hit a few rocks so you justify them as being damaged beyond repair when something shinier catches your eye
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Megamum, an inappropriate ski for what you are trying to do can make it harder to acquire new skills. It might be that you become a better skier for it because you have overcome the adversity of being on the 'wrong' skis. Or it might be that you develop bad habits rather than good skills to get around the fact that you're on the 'wrong' skis. But generally I agree with a subset of what fatbob said: there's an awful lot of BS around skis.
After all it is free
After all it is free
fatbob, what you said
rob@rar, what you said too
Also, Megamum, while I think that many "high end" skis actually reach further down the spectrum than you would imagine, "mid" range skis are generally much more competent and capable than you might imagine, so you are possibly talking about compromising hardware style for technical substance...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I recall having problems reaching a high note on my flute. My teacher asked if she could try the instrument - she said sometimes it was the instrument's fault that it was hard to hit a high note with a good tone. She played the passage which was giving me difficulty and it sounded absolutely divine.
I decided that there really wasn't any point my thinking about a fancier flute....
I also recall lending a pair of my skis to my son, who skis far better than I do (and is heavier). Again, he flew round the place in great style on the things. He did say they wouldn't be his ski of choice for a day out with his instructor buddies, but it did prove that when it came to the partnership between me and those skis, I was the weak link.
I don't really see the point in spending a couple of scarce and expensive weeks only to do the same things you could do on a less challenging pair of skis two weeks earlier. I could see the point in getting hold of skis more suitable for certain things (I have, for example, been persuaded by some advice on here that I would have less of a problem with powder if I tried some much wider skis) but I doubt whether many of us with fairly ordinary sort of skills come close to pushing the limits of a pair of good modern general purpose skis when just cruising around on pisted runs. I'm sure I don't. For me, what's important is to feel sufficiently comfortable with the skis to be able to try the exercises which instructors give me. Exercises such as side slipping on the uphill foot, for example, which I find quite hard enough on my regular skis.
Until I can reliably do a series of turns on one leg I shall certainly not be persuaded that my skis are too beginnerish for me. And that is going to take the whole of next season, I reckon as it took me much of last season to be able to do it fairly reliably on my left leg. For me, spending time on those balance-improving exercises is better spent (and more interesting) than just about managing to heave a more advanced ski round corners. But maybe I'm just an exercise freak? Probably what comes of spending a lot of time skiing a fairly limited number of runs.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Quote:
clarky999, Why slower?
Say you jump on a real big boy ski like an FIS downhill race ski or Rosi B0squads (or similar) - ie very long, very stiff and very straight skis, it's going to be an absolute mission for you to do anything other than straightline it, as it will take both solid technique and alot of strength (or speed/force) to turn it. In contrast a soft intermediate ski will be a lot easier to use, so you can concentrate on skiing it well and improving technique, rather than just getting it down the hill.
Do you think a learner driver would learn faster in a small, slow 1 litre Mini or a 6 litre turbocharged wheel-spinning Ferrari?
I agree there is a lot of BS from manufacturers though.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 8-06-10 7:11; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Megamum, I do know what you mean. Transferring the concept onto something I know about as a senior instructor - church bell ringing ... When someone's at the stage of comfortably managing a familiar bell I ask them to do two things. They take that bell into unfamiliar territory by ringing it at different speeds and for new methods ("tunes/patterns"). Secondly I take them to other towers to ring other bells, but always within current capability. What I am after is different not harder in this respect so that on going home they feel a sense of relaxation and that aids their progression.
In terms of skiing I can only speak for myself, as a nervous learner. I am happier to keep the same skis but vary what I do with them so that my trust in them and my ability to "drive" them grows.
Can you answer your own question though - on skiing the WMs now, how do you feel about them? What others have said about experts being able to ski almost anything is of course pertinent. Do you feel your skills have grown any more or differently than they would have done with the same 2 weeks on the WMs or did the steep learning curve of the new ones rob you of time?
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
under a new name wrote:
following on from clarky999, longer and stiffer isn't necessarily "better"...often just inappropriate...
Lol I'm fighting to avoid writing something inapropriate in response to that!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
clarky999, phhnaaarrr, ROFLOL.
It had been a long day...
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
clarky999,
Quote:
very long, very stiff and very straight skis, it's going to be an absolute mission for you to do anything other than straightline it, as it will take both solid technique and alot of strength (or speed/force) to turn it. In contrast a soft intermediate ski will be a lot easier to use, so you can concentrate on skiing it well and improving technique, rather than just getting it down the hill.
This is how - as an intermediate skier with no aspirations to go very fast, perhaps Megamum is the same - I feel about my present skis (soft) as against my previous ones (hard). I'm skiing better on the more manoeuvrable ones, I think, particularly in variable terrain.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
pam w wrote:
Until I can reliably do a series of turns on one leg I shall certainly not be persuaded that my skis are too beginnerish for me.
I'm still rubbish at these Not sure it's a good decider if new skis are in order!
fwiw, I've only outgrown one pair of skis (Fisher RX9s), and that was over a season - I still teach kids on them, but find them too floppy and not torsionally stiff enough to be able to control higher energy turns. It became really obvious when they started to hold me back overall, but I always hated them offpiste. I'm pretty sure as a rule, people can tell when their skis aren't enough for them, or too much for them, if they're honest with themselves. Easy to end up with a workman/tools scenario, but that's more an ego thing.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Megamum, Although nothing to do with skiing, this video highlights the problems with not enough talent for the equipment.
Megamum, an inappropriate ski for what you are trying to do can make it harder to acquire new skills. It might be that you become a better skier for it because you have overcome the adversity of being on the 'wrong' skis. Or it might be that you develop bad habits rather than good skills to get around the fact that you're on the 'wrong' skis.
This does work in both directions. Now and again I jump on pupils hire ski's 'just to see' and sometimes they can be shocking for anything other than beginner activities. As Rob says, they need to be appropriate for what you are trying to do.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
but find them too floppy and not torsionally stiff enough to be able to control higher energy turns.
but I think your skiing is probably in a rather different league to that of the OP - or mine! I do find my shorter skis not too happy at speed, but I suspect my top speed is a lot lower than yours. My thing with the balance exercises is that I am elderly and easy to damage. So I really want to improve my ability to recover from imbalance, from being chucked onto the wrong leg when, for example, coming off some soft snow back onto the piste without anticipating the change of surface enough. I ski on a lot of very easy pistes, and I ski with a lot of people who are even more elderly than I, or have done a lot less skiing. I find those exercises an excellent way to ensure I never get bored. I am rubbish on my right leg, and also complete rubbish at 360s. I shall persist with the former but gave up even trying the latter when I realised that simple bits of gymnastics now make my head spin - and a kid's swing makes me seasick.
I think my current skis do limit what I could do off piste but that's partly because my technique is not very good. There is a school of thought that I ought to persist with them, rather than go fatter; my son, despite his weight, could make them dance well enough off piste to my eye, though he would never choose them. (He doesn't use fat skis either, but he does use much longer ones and in any case generally chooses a snowboard for powder).
pam w, yeah, but don't try and make yourself excel at really high end balance drills, especially ones that really aren't that important to your skiing as a whole. All I meant was, without wanting to be rude, my skiing is likely a lot higher level than yours but I still can't do the things you're setting as a goal - I do understand your reasoning, which is logical and reasonable, but just as reassurance really it's not something to limit yourself due to not attaining.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Megamum, I've had one pair of skis that were definitely too long and stiff - I was so happy when I got rid of them... most of the rest I like but I don't think I ever had really soft skis except a pair of Lotta Luvs.
I can tell when the ski needs to be replaced because they just feel 'dead' or they are no longer feeling 'safe' in faster turns...
You can go too stiff/long and also too soft/short
All in all I guess I'm with rob@rar, that a ski appropriate for what you want to do with it is a useful learning tool
Also a ski that is well tuned and kept that way not tuned/waxed once a season
Do you think a learner driver would learn faster in a small, slow 1 litre Mini or a 6 litre turbocharged wheel-spinning Ferrari?
I know what you're saying, but I think Megamum is past that stage. Plus, there's a lot of different vehicles in between the two you suggest. To extend the metaphor, the question is perhaps more whether you'd improve faster by driving a 1.6l Mondeo or a 3l BMW.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
andyph, to keep the metaphor going, it does seem like something stiff and chargey will behave like a rear wheel drive convertible or similar - if you're not finessed, it'll shoot off and skid all over the place. Can still learn aggressive driving techniques in an underpowered car or ski, just lacks that top end that's hardest to master and refine. I doubt many holiday skiers will really get to the point where they're pushing consumer skis past their limits, though - much easier to be overgunned than undergunned, technically - obviously different skis suit different styles and tactics better though.
After all it is free
After all it is free
DaveC, All the ISTDs I know can ski on one ski - even us oldies. Good balance on either/both feet is essential to being able to deal with either dodgy situations or learning new techniques/movements. What would you do if you lost one ski (happened to me)? Actually pam w, skis pretty well, and always denigrates her ability on the forum.
brian
brian Guest
Megamum wrote:
altogether harder to ski
That's most unlikely to be true. Specifically in some circumstances harder to ski, yes. Skis are horses for courses. A soft noodly ski will be really hard for a lardy to do fast, long radius turns at high speed on hard snow, for example.
Anyway, ski purchasing is a fundamental human right and one of the great pleasures of life. Nobody should be put off from it.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Spyderman wrote:
Megamum, Although nothing to do with skiing, this video highlights the problems with not enough talent for the equipment.
i was on some new skis today for the first time. i had been skiing short 165 Slalom skis for the last few months and tried out my new 193 race stock GS skis as the slope was quiet. it was quite difficult to get to grips with them and they definitely showed up my typical flaws. skiing any ski inappropriate to your level or what you are trying to do/where you are at wont really help to improve your technique IMO. Ultra fat skis on piste or SL skis off piste although possible to ski okay wont improve your technique just highlight your problems.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
easiski, I can ski on one ski to an extent, and I'm nowhere near an ISTD level... not that any of that is really relevant when someone's pretty much saying that they feel it's a barrier to progress? I mean I've skied down half of my home mountain with what I thought was a broken ankle so I'm not that shabby Just saying that it's more of an ancilliary skill rather than something that brings into question whether someone's skis are suitable or not.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
skimottaret, agreed, but from a development point of view it's quite interesting having flaws exposed like that - plus, improving on SL skis off-piste definitely adds a level of finesse when you do get back on fatter more appropriate skis. I definitely have a lot more in my repitoire on both sides of the coin from skiing different types of skis.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
brian wrote:
Anyway, ski purchasing is a fundamental human right and one of the great pleasures of life. Nobody should be put off from it.
I'm cutting this, framing it and putting on a wall where mrs horizon can see it every day.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
not that any of that is really relevant when someone's pretty much saying that they feel it's a barrier to progress?
What I was trying to say was not that being unable to ski reliably on one ski is a problem - rather that there is still masses more I am sure I could do with my existing skis, and still be steadily improving my technique in a more useful way (to me) than having to use a lot of welly to get more "grownup" skis to go round corners.
I think you had it exactly right when you said
Quote:
I doubt many holiday skiers will really get to the point where they're pushing consumer skis past their limits, though - much easier to be overgunned than undergunned, technically
I am nowhere near pushing my consumer skis (Dynastar Exclusive Fluid) to their limit, let alone past it - as I realised when I saw my two stone heavier son on them. He has had no formal lessons since he was 9, but he's hung around with some instructors and he got down from the top of the Grand Motte to Val D'Isere on one ski when the other fell catastrophically apart. He did swap legs occasionally and confessed to having found the mogully bits challenging and having stiff legs the next day. His cousin carried the disabled ski for him. Those skis were a pair of slightly knackered ones he'd been given in lieu of rent by an instructor who'd spent some time dossing in his apartment. He loved them, and almost cried when he realised they were dead. Next time he comes skiing his skis will be a pair I got for nothing from a snowhead leaving Morzine at the end of the season. He also wears old boots bought about 17 years ago by my brother in law. No equipment BS there.
I do intend to try some much fatter skis next season, though. And have some more lessons in the powder after a couple of quite successful efforts this last year. Who knows, I might even get back on a pair of blades now and then. I am also firmly of the view that a day without poles is very good for most holiday skiers, whatever is on their feet.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Great, you obviously all liked the notion of the question We haven't seen such an animated discussion for a long while.
FWIW, yes, I lost a few days skiing and damaged my pride somewhat, but I wouldn't go back to the old skis now and haven't done so since first trying the new ones. The took no prisoners, and I think this forced me to stop being sloppy and start to ski them properly, what I could get away with on the easier ones, I couldn't get away with on these. My carving technique has improved no end IMV and I can't get over the stability on the new ones - they are like rocks to ski on, no twitches, or wriggles and I can schuss fast without them twitching under me which gives me the confidence to up the speed. I'm all set to capitalise on the new found confidence on them with some good sessions of private lessons next January.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Megamum, it's arguable that the added stability is a minus for the intermediate skier, who should be learning, as pam w is, to develop his/her own bodily stability, rather than relying on the skis. My current Dynastars are definitely less stable than my Heads, so I've had to work harder to improve my own stability, which I reckon has been good for my skiing.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Hurtle, I see the argument, but the patter underfoot from the previous pair was starting to get really disconcerting and I swear was responsible for a nasty tumble one day when I am sure I caught an edge through it. It actually would put me off doing long straight stetches at speed and leave me walking for further on uphill stretches rather than whizzing along them if it meant going really fast earlier on. Maybe I'm lazy, but I would rather be on more stable skis from the outset, though by your argument it might not be as good for me long term.
However, the purpose of the question was almost hypothetical since I am now skiing the new skis, I just wanted to provide another subject to get some discussion going on. It seems to have worked
Megamum, Hmmm re 'stable' and intermediate ski being the same... I ski GS race skis everyday because I find them much more stable -at speed. Also they perform better if you are not going 2mph...
The down side is they kick your butt if you don't manage the rebound properly or get aft.
I think a better description of an intermediate ski is that it is more forgiving rather than more stable - it has a larger sweet spot I'd say. Hence you suffer less side effect from not being centred on the ski.
It is also easier to bend (softer longitudinally) and so you don't need the same forces to be generated to turn tighter. The downside of that is that it is easier to overpower it.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
easiski wrote:
Actually pam w, skis pretty well, and always denigrates her ability on the forum.
hear hear
back on length...I got some cheapish shorter skis which I tried out in scotland, whilst I could ski them fine, switching to my longer pair gave me alot more confidence, feel and 'skiability' both on and off piste....
I am not sure that being unable to get maximum performance out of a lower level ski means that you should not try a better ski. I am certain I cannot get the performance out of any ski that a first rate skier will but it does not mean that I cannot enjoy a better ski.
I have a bit of a tendancy to be a cheapskate with gear and have not bought high end skis in the past though I have rented a few. Last year I bought a pair of Pilgrims from Kiwi1, I was pretty bowled over by the difference in performance between those and my existing skis even though I doubt I was getting the maximum out of them.
I don't buy skis to improve my skiing on them, I look to instruction to do that however I do think that buying a decent ski will sometimes allow you to have more fun when skiing even if you cannot max out the performance and that is surely what most of us are after.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
T Bar, My experience with Icelantics is that they aren't necessarily more advanced - they just ski differently to other more traditional skis e.g. Head. This means that they seem to be a bit Marmite when people try them, either the differences work for them or they don't.
I think the same is true of a number of more progressive shapes and some manufacturers e.g. K2 seem to be getting the message (although I retain a healthy cynicism re their motivation for marketing a rebake of an old hat mid range ski with a "now with added rocker" sticker).
After all it is free
After all it is free
T Bar, I didn't get the more advanced skis to improve my skiing either. They were a present that I decided to take on. The original question stemmed from the fact that I am now 'confidence wise' 'comfortable' on them and can also now 'feel' their advantage - they are stable, I'm sure I've been forced to improve my carving technique, they stick to a shearer surface like the proverbial 'sticky socks hold onto a wall', their added width seems an advantage in softer deeper conditions, the added weight is an advantage when going through the snowy equivalent of 'rubble' and I've had the odd really brilliant run down some wide open pistes where I've had the confidence to, for me at least, 'let rip' and felt as though I was actually 'skiing'. I just wondered whether the fact that the new skis had forced me to pay attention to the way I skied had caused me to progress faster than I would have done on the old skis which I think let me get away with far more errors.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
I just wondered whether the fact that the new skis had forced me to pay attention to the way I skied had caused me to progress faster than I would have done on the old skis which I think let me get away with far more errors.
they might have done, Megamum, but just having that extra time on the slopes, and being encouraged to try things, and go a bit faster, was probably also an important factor. In the early stages of skiing just spending an extra week or so on the skis will make a huge difference because confidence grows so quick. As you get more experienced, that nice steep learning curve flattens out. I now tend to feel that I am only making progress when I've had some good lessons AND deliberately then go out and practice the things I've been taught. I can just slop around the mountain for weeks at a time (I'm a lucky girl...............) and be quite sure I'm making no progress at all. Very enjoyable, it might be, especially if the weather is good, the company agreeable and the vin chaud of a decent quality. I can believe there are some skis which would help me ski better off piste, but I'm far from convinced there are any which would help me ski better on piste - what I need for that is a combination of lessons and practice.
That's why I'm off to Tignes in October (and this time last year was having great sessions with Fastman in Les Deux Alpes). But it'll be on the same skis (quite possibly the ones I bought for £100 from a man in a car park in Bournemouth).
easiski, kitenski, thanks for your kind words. I'm acutely aware that there are some really very, very, good skiers on this forum and I suppose I ski just well enough to know that, actually, it's rubbish compared to where I could be given the amount of time I spend in the mountains and the time I've spent in lessons.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
pam w, As I mentioned above lessons is where its at with me now. I am asking for cash for pressies this year to put towards some private lessons in Les Arcs next January. I need the refinement in technique and extra confidence that should result that will allow me to start softening the turns on steeper sections - I am happy doing nice S turns on slopes up to a certain steepness, but they steadily get more Z like on steeper bits. I'm hoping that an instructor will be able to help me with technique improvements that will help in those areas. I would also like to start to make a better attempt at skiing small bumps with the help of an instructor - Whether that is too much to hope for in one holiday I don't know, but its good to have a goal.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
We haven't seen such an animated discussion for a long while. 
