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OK, at the request of Fatbob for a technical discussion, let's have a look at ANTICIPATION.

Anticipation is the state of having your upper body facing down the falline at the end of the turn, while your skis are pointing across the falline. It produces something called upper/lower body separation, the rotational type, where the upper and lower body point in different directions. Anticipation is a very common outcome of trying to turn your legs beneath a rotationally stable upper body. PSIA calls it femur rotation, and it's a very popular theme in their ranks these days.

So to launch this discussion I'll throw out a few questions for you guys to play with. Hopefully it will lead to some discovery and learning.

- Why do we want to get ourselves in an anticipated position at the end of a turn? What purpose does it serve?

- How does it affect our transition?

- When should we use it, and when is it a detriment?


Have fun, I"ll check back soon.
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I think its generally considered to be a good thing to do, isn't it? The old upper/lower body separation is supposed to be what we are aiming for a lot of the time according to a lot of what I have read - though isn't it being replaced with a different notion now IIRC? Can I do it naturally? Can I hell - I really have to think about it to even get close Laughing
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FastMan wrote:
- When should we use it, and when is it a detriment?

Helpful in short turns, not helpful in long turns.
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FastMan wrote:
- Why do we want to get ourselves in an anticipated position at the end of a turn? What purpose does it serve?

When we finish the old turn the release of the anticipated body position/rotary separation will help twist the skis in to the new turn.
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rob@rar, hmmm, might one express it that it should be more dynamic in short turns and less dynamic in long turns?

FastMan, great question.

Anticipation, great places to seek it out: in the bumps.

Unquestionably necessary although good absorption is perhaps more often found lacking.

Also useful in short turns and steep slopes.

YMMV
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Quote:

Why do we want to get ourselves in an anticipated position at the end of a turn? What purpose does it serve?


It's winding the torso up, like a spring. Once the turn is finished the lower body and skis will naturally unwind and rotate to match the upper body.

Quote:

How does it affect our transition?


Not so sure on that one, other than making it quicker/more efficient?

Quote:

When should we use it, and when is it a detriment?


It's good for short turns, probably not so good for long (at least watching good skiers there's less of it in long radius, personally I still do it quite a lot though). Probably more useful for jump/rotation type turns on the steeps than pure carving, where you use the shape of the ski more.
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Quote:

How does it affect our transition?


It speeds it up

It allows good transition in "difficult" conditions; steeps and bumps

it can cause problems as it can lead to disengagement of the ski and sudden, discontinuous transition?
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under a new name wrote:
rob@rar, hmmm, might one express it that it should be more dynamic in short turns and less dynamic in long turns?

Not sure it's about being dynamic, it's about what kind of forces you unleash at transition. Do you want help with rotary forces - I think you do in short radius turns, like bumps for example, but I think you need lateral forces in longs, so anticipation is not helpful.
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rob@rar, hmmm

hmmm

hmmm

(Those are thinking sounds wink )

Slurp

(that's beer)
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and could some of you chaps expound, over a beer or two, on the relationship between anticipation and counter and what happens to that inside hip?
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pam w, anticipation is the mechanism created by "winding up" your body through progressively developing a countered position at the end of the turn. If you release that "wind-up" and stabilise the upper body, through a good pole plant for example, the lower body will "unwind" when the skis are flattened or unweighted. That unwind, essentially releasing the countered position, will have the effect of turning your skis in to the new turn. Don't quite understand what you asking about the inside hip, but it will become the new outside up as you transition in to the new turn.
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rob@rar wrote:
it's about what kind of forces you unleash at transition.

Are you sure ?

FastMan wrote:
Anticipation is the state of having your upper body facing down the falline at the end of the turn, while your skis are pointing across the falline.

Are you sure ?
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You guys did great with this! I'm impressed.

As rob@rar says, anticipation is helpful with short turns, but not so much with longer turns.

clarky999 explains it perfectly when he says:

Quote:
It's winding the torso up, like a spring. Once the turn is finished the lower body and skis will naturally unwind and rotate to match the upper body.


That rapid unwinding happens during the transition, once the skis have been unweighted and disengaged from the snow, and results in a pivot. A pivot is where the skis quickly twist to point downhill during the transition, before they've re-engaged with the snow to execute the coming turn. It speeds up the change of direction, in essence eliminating the gradual shaping process through the top half of the turn.

As under a new name correctly states, this anticipation driven pivoting is useful in bumps, short turns, and steeps, where you want to make turns happen very quickly. In those situations it's often the case that you don't want to spend the extra time and space needed to progressively shape the top of the turn through skillful carving or subtle steering. Just anticipation pivot the dang things around pronto.

It also finds application in racing, in situations where the turns are set so sharply that carving alone will not produce the needed turn. Anticipation pivoting allows the racer to sharpen the turn without introducing the undesirable drag associated with pressured steering. Just pivot while the skis are unweighted, then quickly feather into a clean carve once the skis reengage with the snow after the pivot has been completed.

Anticipation is a higher skill way to pivot the skis. Lower level skiers most commonly pivot by using a strong twisting of the upper body, shoulders and arms, in the direction of the new turn as they transition. That gross twisting is used to pull the skis into a crude form of pivot. It's effective, but also very movement and labor intensive, and results in an unrefined skid once the skis are reengaged after the pivot. This technique is called "ROTATION".

In longer turns, where a cleaner non pivoted type of transition is needed, anticipation can be a detriment. The body's/skis desire to unwind from the anticipated position makes it very difficult to control and eliminate the pivot as you transition from one turn into the next. It can be done, but it requires a good amount of skill. It's best for learning skiers to eliminate the prior turn counter as they begin to transition, and go through the transition in a more neutral stance, with upper body and skis facing in the same direction. By doing that, the skis can easily be simply rolled over onto their new inside edges, without any undesirable pivoting taking place.

To eliminate the prior turn counter, and thereby the anticipated position, think about subtly pushing your new inside (downhill) hip forward as you transition into the new turn. This unloads the spring that creates the pivot, allowing you to square up as you go through the transition, and create early in the new turn the counter you'll need to ensure good lateral balance and edge engagement.
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FastMan wrote:
To eliminate the prior turn counter, and thereby the anticipated position, think about subtly pushing your new inside (downhill) hip forward as you transition into the new turn. This unloads the spring that creates the pivot, allowing you to square up as you go through the transition, and create early in the new turn the counter you'll need to ensure good lateral balance and edge engagement.


The more I think about this the more I think it is important to ensure the people I teach are able to ski square to their skis before they start refining their stance by having some measure of countered position. If they aren't able to maintain a square stance as they go in to a turn, long or short, aren't we guilty of encouraging them to run before they can walk by encouraging them to counter their stance?
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rob@rar, I agree strongly with that.
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rob@rar, FastMan, now that's VERY interesting - so one would not tell beginners to try to face downhill, even in shorter turns?

(as you (may) know, I'm not an instructor, just curious)
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rob@rar wrote:


The more I think about this the more I think it is important to ensure the people I teach are able to ski square to their skis before they start refining their stance by having some measure of countered position. If they aren't able to maintain a square stance as they go in to a turn, long or short, aren't we guilty of encouraging them to run before they can walk by encouraging them to counter their stance?


Interesting... that's worth some thought!
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Wayne wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
it's about what kind of forces you unleash at transition.

Are you sure ?

FastMan wrote:
Anticipation is the state of having your upper body facing down the falline at the end of the turn, while your skis are pointing across the falline.

Are you sure ?


What are you thinking here? Puzzled
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horizon wrote:
rob@rar, FastMan, now that's VERY interesting - so one would not tell beginners to try to face downhill, even in shorter turns?

(as you (may) know, I'm not an instructor, just curious)


I suppose it depends on what you define as a beginner, but I wouldn't with a complete beginner. I think there are more important things to focus on. Rotary separation would come much later on in the progression I'd teach them.
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rob@rar, as we were talking about the other day i think ensuring people are striving to have hips square to the skis is quite critical otherwise it is a detriment in most cases IMO

i seem to recall this being referred to as waist steering wink
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rob@rar, & skimottaret, isn't it the case that in steep powder you don't want the separation, rather you want hips square to the skis?
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Dr John, what kind of turns would you want to make in the steep powder?
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Dr John, as i was saying above you can still be separated but square to the skis... think of twisting at the waist upwards but holding your pelvis square when doing it. otherwise we get into the dreaded inner tip lead and that thread might have to get bumped Toofy Grin
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clarky999, IMV, anticipation occurs at the start of the turn (although clearly, depends on when you define "start") whereas Rob and F-Man are suggesting it's a state at the end. In steeps, I'm confident I'm right, in bumps less so, unless I'm demonstrating. ((Demonstrating what I hear you ask, as I am SO NOT an instructor.))

rob@rar, I'd agree, I'm not sure what sort of short turns you'd teach a beginner?

Dr John, why...? Interesting question, please amplify?
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under a new name wrote:
clarky999, IMV, anticipation occurs at the start of the turn (although clearly, depends on when you define "start") whereas Rob and F-Man are suggesting it's a state at the end. In steeps, I'm confident I'm right, in bumps less so, unless I'm demonstrating. ((Demonstrating what I hear you ask, as I am SO NOT an instructor.))



That was to Wayne not you dude wink

Whilst we're on the subject, I'd say the anticipation is built up through the turn and released during the transition - but the state of anticipating can only be at the end of the turn, as you are anticipating the new one. The next step is the transition.
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under a new name wrote:
rob@rar, I'd agree, I'm not sure what sort of short turns you'd teach a beginner?

Slow ones Wink

All things are relative I suppose. A short turn for a beginner, ie one which is as tight a radius as they can manage with no traverse/dead spot, between turns, is going to be a different beast from a short turn that you'd teach a more experienced skier.
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under a new name, I had the same semantic issue with "anticipation" as clearly in plain english its a "before" not "after" word.

In truly glorious steep powder you of course stand square to the skis on the tails and minimise turning to experience the full "elevator shaft" effect. wink
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fatbob wrote:
under a new name, I had the same semantic issue with "anticipation" as clearly in plain english its a "before" not "after" word.
The perils of language! In most of the ski books and instructor manuals I've read "anticipation" has a well-defined meaning, as described by Fastman here. I happen to have the 2nd edition of Ron LeMaster's book on my desk - anticipation (also know as wind-up release) is described on p.109 if anyone else has the book (I highly recommend it).

Quote:
In truly glorious steep powder you of course stand square to the skis on the tails and minimise turning to experience the full "elevator shaft" effect. wink
Smile
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clarky999 wrote:
What are you thinking here? Puzzled


Just my ideas so ignore them.
To me anticipation is not about either the forces (?) unleashed during the transition or having your upper body facing down the fall-line with your ski across the fall-line.

To me anticipation is (I may be wrong here BTW) is the preparation for the next turn/bump/jump/slide/etc. It is a (not "the") transition from ending one "thing" and the mental and physical preparation for the next.
As an example in a snowplough 3 (don't ya just love em) you will press extend and rotate "before" the turn. Ok these action will "lead" to a turn but they MUST be done before or there will not be a turn to talk about. So the end of the turn "is" the anticipation for the next, but this happens "before" the transition. In fastman's analogy the position he describes could be shown as the state "before" the anticipation (or inception, if you want).

Just my ideas.
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Wayne, good points, maybe the problem is "anticipation" versus anticipation. That said, the only time I think about it actively is skiing steeply and in bumps. In steeps (for me) it's a conscious activity that precedes the turn, in bumps, if I'm starting a line from a standing in bumps start, I'll compress, anticipate then launch.

If the FatBobSter is not delighted by this thread, he'd better relocate permanently to TGR Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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under a new name,
I was going to put that most of the time anticipation is an unconscious thing and the higher your skill level and experience the less you think consciously about what you’re going to do next.
Anticipation becomes more of a physical redistribution in preparation for the next thing
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under a new name wrote:


If the FatBobSter is not delighted by this thread, he'd better relocate permanently to TGR Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


I'm enjoying it although I'm disappointed that between you & Wayne we haven't got into the physics of potential energy in the "wind up" and then argued about it.

I tend to think most closely of this in fall line skiing - at the extreme a mogul competitor keeps the upper body totally still down the fall line while the legs "flow" with the terrain. What it mainly makes me think is how unaware I am of what I'm doing - besides steeps or moguls I can't visualise how much counter I create in a normal freeskiing situation. Not enough to cause me to hit too many trees though (& we'll gloss over the "iceberg" treewell I fell in while skiing with brian last season wink )
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horizon wrote:
rob@rar, FastMan, now that's VERY interesting - so one would not tell beginners to try to face downhill, even in shorter turns?

(as you (may) know, I'm not an instructor, just curious)


horizon, rob@rar brought up an excellent topic here. I was hoping the discussion might evolve in this direction. Here are my thoughts on it.

Watch the recreational skiers that populate any resort in the world. The common denominator will be that the vast majority of them aggressively pivot their skis at the beginning of their turns, no matter what terrain they happen to be on. This is a habitual movement pattern that is usually embedded early in their skiing life, when a natural fear of the falline fueled a desperate desire to get their skis redirected back across the hill as quickly as possible when trying to turn.

They pivot because they haven't yet developed the edging skills, and confidence that comes with them, to control their speed with turn shape and skid angle. Once those refined edging skills are acquired, skiers can leave survival based pivoting behind and let the falline become their friend, something to be enjoyed, not feared.

The problem with striving to keep the body facing down the falline is that it results in the anticipated position we've been discussing here, which as we've learned tends to result in pivoting the start of the turn. While it's a more refined form of pivoting than the beginners upper body rotation variety, it's still pivoting. It still represents the abandonment of an attempt to skillfully shape the top of the turn, in favor of an aggressive, falline avoiding, twisting of the skis back across the hill.

So why do some instructors teach keeping the upper body facing down the falline to beginner/intermediate level skiers? Well, beyond the obvious reason of conforming to what their supervisors advocate, it's because pivoting is actually what they want their students to do. The refined anticipation pivot does bring the skis around quickly, and allows skiers with unrefined edging skills to quickly get on more difficult terrain. In other words, it provides a quick fix for the student, which in the moment reflects well on the instructor, but unfortunately also represents a fast track to the terminal intermediate plateau. Once on that more difficult terrain the skill deprived student becomes even more dependent on their pivoting, and it becomes ever more deeply engrained in their movement patterns as they continue skiing like this year after year. As they continue on embedding their pivoted transition into their muscle memory, the clean entry steered and carved turn becomes ever more elusive to them. In the end we're left with the situation we see today; the majority of recreational skiers pivoting their turns.

The first thing I do when working with a student, after getting them in a functional and efficient athletic stance, is help them learn to abandon their default pivoting, and replace it with more refined edging skills. I let them experience the joy of the falline, and help them come to relish the acceleration they feel when doing it. I show them how to manage their speed through more varied, refined, and fun ways. It's really fascinating; when people acquire these new edging skills the fears that often encourage them to keep clinging to their pivoting often quickly fade, and they suddenly are skiing faster and in more comfort and control than they ever had before. For many, it's a liberating learning event. Yes, their pivot is still there for those times when it's really needed, but they discover that the reality is that it seldom is.
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FastMan, At what point in the process do you reintroduce pivot steering as a more finesse move in tighter situations?
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Megamum do not pivot the skis at the beginning of the turn - repeat X 100 How do you know if you are doing this? FastMan, may be watching you........Eeek!! Need to win lottery go and spend season in Colarado and hire FastMan, for ski lessons each day.
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Megamum, there are instructors a bit closer to home who have similar sensibilities... Wink
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Megamum, I can categorically - and with much gratitude - confirm what rob@rar has just posted! I imagine that if Rob or Scott were to post video of me skiing under their tutelage a year ago and now, that would perfectly illustrate FastMan's point. And, much as I'd like to go to Colorado, it's a lot cheaper getting to Hemel, even on a fairly regular basis.
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FastMan, That brings home a few points. It's like on a motorbike, look through the turn, tilt towards it and commit to the line as you cross over it. From my untrained point of view.
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Wayne, I think consciously about my skiing ALL the time. Doesn't everyone?

FastMan, oooh, eloquent or what. That's a very interesting description and I (humbly) think you're bang on.

fatbob, (I think) bumps competitors are anticipating but it's muchly in the arms and otherwise not so noticeable amongst all the action going on elsewhere.
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rob@rar, skimottaret, under a new name, I was off-piste with a coach and I kept falling back when finishing tight-ish turns in the steep n deep. Coach identified the problem as me forcing the separation to have my shoulders facing down the fall-line, resulting in pushing my downhill arm back and pushing me into the back seat and the skis running away from under me. He encouraged me to keep my shoulders more square and forward so my shovels could get some purchase allowing me to finish my turn in control. Seemed to do the trick. He said my separation was good for piste and shallow powder, but to adjust for the steep n deep stuff.


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