Hey folks, I need some assistance. I'm working on a new DVD, an introduction to racing, and need help with finding out what racing opportunities are available in Europe for recreational skiers looking to give racing a try. NASTAR is what we have over here, and it's a great venue for new racers, so I'm wondering what's similarly available on your side of the pond. I want to be able to point people who buy the DVD in the right direction on how to get their feet wet in a non intimidating way.
Thanks,
Rick
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
snowsport england site would be a good place to rummage around...
in france the ESF have the original version of NASTAR i believe
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
FastMan, Austria has (or certainly had) WISBI (WIe Schnell Bis Ich?)
snowsport england site would be a good place to rummage around...
There are also regional races that won't be listed there. Most races within the UK will presume that competitors have had a bit of training first which may not be what FastMan is looking for.
Quote:
in france the ESF have the original version of NASTAR i believe
People starting out in racing probably would want to enter the Fleche (GS) variant rather than the Chamois (SL) though.
Does NASTAR tend to run every day in US resorts ? Maybe suggest to check the ESF noticeboard on arrival in a resort to see which days they are running races.
snowsport england site would be a good place to rummage around...
There are also regional races that won't be listed there. Most races within the UK will presume that competitors have had a bit of training first which may not be what FastMan is looking for.
Quote:
in france the ESF have the original version of NASTAR i believe
People starting out in racing probably would want to enter the Fleche (GS) variant rather than the Chamois (SL) though.
Does NASTAR tend to run every day in US resorts ? Maybe suggest to check the ESF noticeboard on arrival in a resort to see which days they are running races.
Yes we are looking for something for never ever seen a race course before people to get in and get started I think...
Yes in many resorts NASTAR runs daily but some only run on certain days of the week. Very much depends on the resort. NASTAR website has all the details.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
If in the UK then people can join a club at their local dry slope or snowdome. they have races throughout most of the summer, but they are all slalom of course.
In France the ESF run races that are similar to the NASTAR format. They are slalom and GS (and in some cases SG and DH). The openers all race against each other and are handicapped at the start of each new season. There are awards (Gold, Platinum, Silver, Bronze and a mini Bronze) according to the racer's time against the base. Of course there are differences according to the stadium and the course setter and the openers. some stadia are shorter or longer, steeper or flatter; some setters make it hard; some openers always try their hardest (ours here for instance) and some take it easy. However, theoretically you can go anywhere in France and have a fairly even playing field.
No doubt someone else will be along soon with more info, particularly about Austria, Germany and Switzerland.
BTW the courses in most ESF races would be considerable harder than the NASTAR ones from what I've heard.
After all it is free
After all it is free
rjs wrote:
skimottaret wrote:
snowsport england site would be a good place to rummage around...
There are also regional races that won't be listed there. Most races within the UK will presume that competitors have had a bit of training first which may not be what FastMan is looking for.
Yes, and the races listed on www.britski.org are those national level races, and while Club Nationals are officially "entry level" are definitely not for "never evers". Several of the regions run active race leagues through the summer, which are more targetted at the lower level racer, but you'd still want to have had a bit of training under your belt before entering one. Leagues will normally include individual slalom, team parallel slalom and maybe individual parallel slalom as well. The age range in my local league ( www.srsa.org.uk ) is only just 5 to 60+ and we'd typically get 120-150 turning up for a race (numbers are slightly down this year). Eastern region ( www.erskia.co.uk ) can get up to 200 in a race.
For skiing actually within the UK, the clubs listed on http://www.britski.org/links.htm are a good place to start. There are about 30 listed there in England/Wales alone that offer training on dry or indoor slopes - and there are a few others to my certain knowledge, which may be listed on the Regions' web sites, also linked to from that page. There's actually a more complete list, including current contacts (which may not be appropriate to go into a DVD, as they will change from year to year) here: http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/guides/page.aspx?intGuideID=41&intPageID=236 . There is also a map of where the UK slopes are and a bit about them here: http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/guides/page.aspx?intGuideID=3&intPageID=7 . The majority of UK race club members will be children, but most have adults in there somewhere - although some are specifically children only.
There is an inter-university championship (Kings, http://www.kingsski.org/ ) that is supposedly great fun (and at least some of that is skiing-related!). Runs regional leagues of team parallel slalom competitions with a final on MayDay - I see from the results listings that there were about 250 skiers and boarders at the finals this year. University clubs have memberships that range from never-evers to some of the top ranked skiers in the country.
I don't know much about training opportunities out in the mountains, but beyond the ESF organised Fleche and Chamois races already mentioned, there are the DHO and Kandahar clubs in the Wengen area (links also on that page) that have a long history of recreational (and higher) level racing.
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As others have said, in the UK the thing to do is to join a club. Most are based around dry ski slopes. There are three clubs based at my local slope at Gloucester. The clubs are affiliated to Snowsport England and organised into regions. As GrahamN says, most of the regions run their own summer race leagues. Gloucester is part of the south west region and we have a summer race league each month from May to October. The June meeting was last Saturday and you can see a selection of pictures at http://www.westerncounties.net The summer race leagues are the lowest level of racing in the UK. On Saturday we had racers from about 7 to over 60 and there were 140 starters from ten teams. Two timed runs through the course in the morning and three dual slalom racers in the afternoon. I "race" in the over 50s, but as a relative newcomer I am often up against the youngsters in the afternoon! Many of these skiers seldom have the opportunity to race on snow, or even to ski on snow, but they make the best of what is available, even if it is only 120m of Dendix.
I imagine most dry slope clubs are similar, although we at Western Counties have an unusually high number of adult skiers in addition to the youngsters. Some do not wish to race, but most do. Some of us are mediocre (but trying to improve), some are rather handy and one or two are really good. Plastic (Dendix) is a very challenging surface to ski on compared with snow. Snow tends to be forgiving of mistakes, even if the gates are not, but poor technique on Dendix can have unforeseen consequences, and is not pleasant to fall on.
The level above the summer race leagues is represented by the Club Nationals which are a series of races organised by different clubs around the country, mostly outdoors on plastic, but there are a few indoors on snow. These start around April and go on until about October or November. Finally, there is a series of Grand Prix races for the best, again held at various venues around the country, and mostly on plastic. As others, who know more about this level, have said, the place to start for the higher level races is britski.
In the South West, those that want to train or race on snow generally attend the British Ski Academy near Chamonix or belong to Dragons Ski Club, but there are others. See, for example, http://www.barsc.net/index.html
My daughter has raced in the Kings Ski Club races for University snowsport clubs. Although the age group is quite limited, the ability is more varied with some really good racers who have come up through the clubs and some who are just starting out in racing. For university students there is also BUSC (http://www.buscevents.com/) which organises a dry slope championship in the autumn and The Main Event in March.
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People, the training options you are listing are mostly for kids, they will not be teaching themselves from a DVD.
One race that does allow adult entries on the day is the Scottish Masters at Glenshee.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
rjs, no. It is true that the participants are mostly kids, but many of those clubs have adult sections/members. The races are great fun with the full age range - I'm not sure I'd actually want to race if it were just a bunch of crusty has-beens. Our Seniors club has over 20 members, and typically 15+ on an adults-only training session. Impulse sessions this year have been about 50:50 adults:kids, and I always see several adults training in the previous Hemel Race club session. Looking at the first ERSA race this year there were 27 over-30s. As Derek Jackson said, there are lots at Western Counties, and on the occasions I go north I come across several masters from Pendle, Ravens, Sharks, one from Oval (although not seen him this year). Most Club Nationals and our regional races typically have about a dozen masters entries, and that normally goes up for indoor snow - and I understand your Indoor Grand Prix series has an even greater number. The only clubs I know that are specifically children-only are Sandown Park and ours (Aldershot), but we have a separate Seniors club.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
GrahamN, Kandahar, DHO and BSA don't train adults.
I guess somebody wanting to find out if they enjoyed racing could ask for a day entry to a Club National, I don't know if this rule on entries also applies to Scottish club races, the Cairngorm club GS had a wide range of standards in it this year.
The masters racer from the Oval did not start as an adult, he started when we were both 10.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
rjs wrote:
GrahamN, Kandahar, DHO and BSA don't train adults.
OK, I meant to add that BSA (and I assume BARSC) was children only, but it seems you are right for those mountain-based clubs. Very surprised DHO and Kandahar don't train adults, particularly as Kandahar actually runs the British Masters' Races, and they have plenty of masters in their InterClub competition teams.
rjs wrote:
I guess somebody wanting to find out if they enjoyed racing could ask for a day entry to a Club National
Much better to get in touch with their local dry slope or snowdome and ask about the race club. Hemel is currently oversubscribed, but just about anywhere else will accept new members (or try-outs).
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rjs, yes some clubs are for children only and many have only a limited number of adults, but others are not so restrictive. At a Summer Race League meeting at Gloucester there are usually about 10 over 50s. The better ones are the coaches who turn out for a day's racing rather than simply coaching, but the rest of us are playing catch up and some will be taking on the coaches soon. At Western Counties it is more a matter of kids being tolerated provided they behave themselves because we all train together, even if the techniques our coaches use are different for each of us. That said, we currently have a couple of rather good youngsters and there are several more at the moment who are threatening to leave me behind. Gloucester Ski Club does tend to be more child orientated, but still regularly have one or two under 50s skiers, while Slalom Plus, which used to put out a significant number of adults in its A team, is re-grouping and is only putting out one or two adults this year.
Racing on snow is, I think, more difficult for a newcomer, but I suspect for someone who is skiing in one of the dry ski clubs it is far from impossible to enter a race (see, for example: http://www.btinternet.com/~john.p.williams/masters/ ).
The best way for a skier in the UK to start in racing is undoubtedly to find a club, for example through a local dry slope or snowdome, or through Snowsport England (or Snowsport Wales or Snowsport Scotland depending on where they live)
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Derek Jackson, the Masters races seem to be for those with FIS licences only. Are there any which are really comparable to the ESF or NASTAR races?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
beequin, The GS day at the Scottish Masters would be comparable and doesn't require a race licence. The Cairngorm Open GS was set so that it was suitable for Children and was similar to the ESF Fleche sets that I have seen, I'm just not sure whether you need a licence to enter it.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
beequin, the Welsh Championships also have non-FIS races (SL and GS). The entries are mostly childrens 1 and 2, but the open races this year had one master and one senior. Looking from the ski-outs, it looks like it was also a race for people who have done a fair bit of training, though, and not really an first-timers' race.
FastMan, while there are lots of clubs within the UK, which will cover racing on dry or indoor slopes, often with the odd training week away in the mountains, it doesn't look like there's a huge amount available for public access, other than the Fleche and Chamois, in the mountains. There are also public access courses at certain resorts where you pay a euro at the top and can record a time - I did see one in Zermatt, which was set somewhere between a slalom and a GS. There are also fairly limited opportunities for training. I should also have mentioned a few companies who run training weeks, for adult never-evers, intermediates and Eurotest trainees. The two I know of are http://www.snoworks.co.uk/i-skiing/race_training.html , with several weeks throughout the summer and autumn, and a similar week in December from http://www.inspiredtoski.com/courses/tasteofrace . There are also occasional weeks organised by the British Masters ( http://www.btinternet.com/~john.p.williams/masters/ , as mentioned by Derek Jackson), sometimes tied into the British Masters Races (FIS-Masters licence required). At a higher level, i.e. strong intermediates to FIS racers, there are companies like http://www.impulse-racing.co.uk/ (I had a great week with them last December) and the Benni Raich Race Centre in Pitztal ( http://www.race-center.at/en/racecenter-philosophie.html ), about which I nothing beyond that they advertise training for Masters/Seniors.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
GrahamN, what about the ski school end of week races in Italy? When I was there the course was always up and ski school was using it. I'm not sure if non-ski school folks could use it but my memory is that it was open access. No timing but fine to work on skiing gates
little tiger, no ideas....I've never been to "ski school".
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
GrahamN, I have and skied the course with instructor... but it seemed open slather... I thought you might have an idea if anyone can jump in these courses... they are pretty open and flat - would suit new folks trying for first time
little tiger, I'm sorry I really can't be much more help here, as in the mountains I normally head off to off-piste meccas where there's neither sight nor sound of poles - I actually only even saw a Fleche course for the first time this year when our worlds briefly intersected in Meribel. A couple of times I've ducked into race club courses left standing after their training sessions had finished - but trying to do a slalom course on 191cm, 24m radius, 97mm-wide Mantras with touring bindings, or similar specced Dynastar Legend Pros, gets predictably messy .
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
GrahamN,
After all it is free
After all it is free
Thank you, everyone, for all the information and links. This gives me a good start. I'll spend some time exploring the links and compiling the information I need.
It appears for you guys the most common way of getting into racing requires a little more formal commitment than is necessary over here. Our NASTAR racing is such a great program for new racers, with venues to participate in it available at resorts around the country. The resorts here in Summit County, Colorado, run NASTAR every day of the season. The courses are easy, on fairly gentle slopes, and set in what I call a super slalom dual format. GS panel gates, about 15 meters apart. You simply sign up at the top of the course, pay your money, and jump in the course. All day, as many runs as you want, costs about $15. Each run gets a time, and is calculated against a national standard, and is awarded a handicap and medal level. Via this handicap system you can track your progress from day to day. Some people on vacation just jump in with the family and do it one day to give racing a try, others are out there almost every day working to improve their technique and drop their handicaps.
I'm actually conducting a free introduction to racing camp at Breckenridge this coming January, utilizing the NASTAR venue to do it. I have three other coaches helping me, and a large number of people signed up to participate already, but if you'd be interested in joining us I could get you into it.
Last edited by After all it is free on Wed 9-06-10 15:22; edited 1 time in total
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FastMan, It sounds as if there are enough NASTAR venues that they don't get too busy. Entering an ESF Fleche is nearly as easy but in my experience there are typically so many people entered in it that you only get one run. I don't know the system for WISBI in Austria.
In the past the British Masters group have arranged introductory training days indoors and on dry slopes, this has died out a bit but I ought to try doing something again this summer.
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rjs, the Dual course format of NASTAR, along with pretty short courses, allow them to pump a lot of people out of the start quickly. At Breckenridge a typical day will have over a hundred people participate in the race, but there's seldom a line over one or two people ahead of you when you get back to the start for your next run.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
GrahamN wrote:
trying to do a slalom course on 191cm, 24m radius, 97mm-wide Mantras with touring bindings, or similar specced Dynastar Legend Pros, gets predictably messy .
You don't say. Couple of seasons ago, in St Anton, they hadn't gathered the poles up after a race so I decided I'll test out my Tankers in conditions less usual for them. I did a superb first turn(*) and then in the second one, carrying a lot of speed, I tried to half-bank half-angulate aggressively to carve my way back onto the course while thinking positive thoughts (the edges will hold, the edges will hold...). Unsurprisingly I flew off about 5-10 yards sideways, spreading bits of equipment all over the place!
(*) for a certain stylistic value of superb
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
For those of us who are more mature (old!) and have never raced, to ski gates like this is quite a challenge.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
horizon, GrahamN, I presume you don't mind people borrowing your skis when you have left them outside a restaurant.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rjs???
I presume you're unhappy about me/us "borrowing" the race course. We both did say it was AFTER the race...oh yeah on a public slope...which wasn't closed anymore...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
horizon, Your skis would be in a public place too.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Oh for fex sake. I killed the Austrian race industry with two turns on a slalom course.
Thanks for reminding me why I ski offpiste
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
horizon, snap . The annoying thing was that, me having demonstrated my incompetence, the others in the group took a more conservative approach and several finished the course....grrr.
rjs, in my cases these were courses set down an unrestricted public piste, training had finished for the day, they were not netted off, so no there was no disadvantage being done to anyone. If they were that precious about their poles, then they wouldn't have left them all over the mountainside.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
GrahamN, If you were that precious about your skis you would keep them with you.
I'm just trying to find out why some people seem to think it is fine to use equipment belonging to someone else without asking. If somebody asks to ski a course of mine I will usually say yes.
GrahamN, horizon, thing is once they have finished training they have to go up the lift to get to the top of the course to take the gates away, slalom gates aren't cheap what would you have done if on your second turn you hit a gate hard and snapped it... ski off or wait and offer to pay for it
or if you did yourself or someone else an injury... blame the course setter??
a pretty well know race coach had his leg broken at the start of the season just gone by someone just "ducking into a race course"
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
CEM, On one occasion on Cairngorm I'd set a particular set of gates for Tom Ondrusz between the Fiacall and the Day Lodge. One bloke just skied it without asking and then bawled me out for setting such a difficult cr@p course! Because, of course, he couldn't ski it!
seriously - you should always ask before skiing any gates on any piste. Most trainers will say yes if the main part of their training is finished. then everyone's happy.
GrahamN, If you were that precious about your skis you would keep them with you.
I'm just trying to find out why some people seem to think it is fine to use equipment belonging to someone else without asking. If somebody asks to ski a course of mine I will usually say yes.
If I left my skis lying abandoned in the middle of a public piste I'd fully expect never to see them again, never mind whether anyone had borrowed them or not. As I said before these gates were set down an open public piste - actually meandering all over it, so it was almost impossible to ski the piste without going through at least one gate. There was no indication of any piste closure, restriction, ownership or anything else - not even a dumped kit bag at the top of the course - just a set of gates starting apparently out of nowhere part way down the piste. And no-one, other than our group for over 500m in any direction anywhere on the mountain.
CEM wrote:
what would you have done if on your second turn you hit a gate hard and snapped it... ski off or wait and offer to pay for it
Absolutely no idea - but since I was on inappropriate skis, had no hand, chin or shin guards I certainly wasn't going to be hitting them remotely hard, and any breakages would have been frankly an event waiting to happen.
Quote:
or if you did yourself or someone else an injury... blame the course setter??
Why the hell would I do that? It's entirely my own responsibility whether I go through any gate any where at any time - so why on earth should I blame anyone else?
Quote:
a pretty well know race coach had his leg broken at the start of the season just gone by someone just "ducking into a race course"
Well that clearly wouldn't have applied here, as he'd have had to have had a >500m long leg!
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
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