Poster: A snowHead
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I'm not quite sure this is what the FatBob wanted but it,s all I can come up with after an afternoon lying by the (public) pool in the sun, sipping cool rose.
So I be after a new pair of boots next year after 3 seasons in a pair rather too big (mitigated by the SZK's kind ministrations).
Currently, Nordica Dobermann Aggressor 150s.
Thinking dropping to 130 and considering BD Factors.
I rather like my 150s, I can hang out the front of them with no softness appearing. What do we thing for your average skiing around and not racing (having raced in earnest, bar silliness, in years, never was much cop anyway)??
Am I going to find 130s a little too soft and compromised? Will I have to change my technique?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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From BD's website: "The ultimate combination of backcountry and alpine boots, the ultra-stiff Factor is built for the hardest of hard chargers—skiers with tight pants or skinny skis need not apply." So the Factors are not for you
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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under a new name, if your 150s are unmodded then you are going to find any Freeride boot, especially one with touring capabilities, like sponges. Have you ever skied in a softer boot? I used to ski in the stiffest boot I could find but over the last few years I have discovered I prefer my boots to be somewhat softer, certainly more progressive anyway.
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spyderjon, he hehe
parlor, he he he too, yeah, skied various (non-race) touring boots. And softer alpines on occasion, when I had to. I reckon you're probably right, and going back to your own particular theme, too much compromise.
Alpine boots for alpine, touring boots for touring.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sounds like you'll need to modify your stance if you're considering dropping down flex. I'd call the uber stiff flex a crutch if it sounded like you were unhappy with the style of your skiing, but you don't seem to be so it's only an issue if you want to make it one.
I didnt word that very well, but I'm basically going for the opposite of preachy instructor. fwiw, I generally ski pretty hard with CSIA style skiing, weigh around 220lbs at 6'4, and tend to have my Speedmachine 14s on 120 not 130.
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DaveC, I don't think it's a crutch, I just like the precision-power. But I don't need it all the time and think I'll be more comfortable with a little more give. Certainly at the end of the day at the beginning of the season when I'm tired and unfit.
Certainly although there is much I want to work on, basic stance is, I think, OK.
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under a new name, biggest issue is when you come from a race boot of that sort of flex , anything will feel too soft and mostly not feel like there is enough control the dobermann 150 is a 95mm last going into anything other than a 95mm last will result in a difference in feel/control and especially lateral response, that said as the boots are oversized then you are not flexing them as they should be flexed so dropping to a 130 in a 98mm last may just work brilliantlymaybe sticking with the 95mm last ...without seeing your feet , impossible to say, but be wary of trying to get one boot to do all the alpine and touring especially as you have come from a full on race boot
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under a new name, "crutch" was more critical than I liked but I couldn't think of a better way to express it. Crutch in the same regard fat skis are for me, they allow an altered style of skiing I just hear instant alarm bells when people say "I like being on the front of my boot" - I could be entirely wrong, but I rarely spend time actively being on the front of my boots. Stiff boots definitely don't require this either - the majority of ISTDs I've skied with are in your boots but ski pretty centred.
CEM, am I right in thinking that lateral stiffness and flex rating have two different functions? My understanding is that lateral stiffness brings precision and forward flex is something ideally tailored to forces created in a turn and be around the level to match the amount of energy you're dealing with through flexion? So an average built WC racer/ISTD type will nearly always want a 150~ flex due to the forces they can generate, an aspiring racer/ISIA type of matching build will likely want flex120~ zone as they won't build quite the same forces from their turns, etc?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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under a new name, why do you want Factors? are you actually going to tour in them or is it because they match your strides?
reason for asking is that although Factors are, by all accounts, pretty stiff, I really doubt that they ski like a 130 rated alpine boot. If you just want something a bit more comfy and maybe with a vibram sole, there are a few top end freeride boots in the 120-130 flex category which have a decent grippy sole on them (but no proper walk mode). I have Garmont Shamans which i really like and you *can* tour in them for a bit without your feet dropping off. i think Lange do something similar
that said, people can and do ski fast and big in Factors and similar so it's really down to whether you like the feel of them
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DaveC, there are so many elements to it, so if we ignor forward flex (as this is a technique/body weight/presonal preference/skills thing)
lateral stability comes from the shape of the shell and the way it is constructed, the last on the modern race boot is very anatomical and the ankle sits very close to the shell, this wrapping combined with the high sides of the lower clog gives a very strong feel laterally in the boot, compare this to a more recreational (even if upper end) boot such as your speed machine, the fit around the ankle is much wider in that area (a bit pot bellied), this along with the softer thicker padded liner will give a secure fit but not the same lateral transmission as you get form the closer race shell fit... using somethig like a zip fit liner with the stiff collar that they have can achieve close to the same thing but it is still not the same
it is one of those things that until you have had that transmission you think the boot you have gives great transmission... try going back the way and it feels all very different, bit of if you haven't had it you don't miss it
i have a pair of head raptor RS with a zip fit in them, andf a pair of salomon quests which i was given, the quests are a bit over sized but are fine for most stuff up to a race ski..... just about ok on a shop race ski, but they just do not have the lateral support for a race department ski
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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CEM, that's interesting, thanks. So out of interest, downsizing a boot like my SM14s will give the same effect? I'm on injected liners in a very tight shell fit - the liners definitely feel very thin around ankle region. Is an accurately fitted high end consumer boot going to be able to compete with something like a Dobermann 150 type boot?
If ankle last is a big issue, how's best to cope with having a wide forefoot and still get top end performance? I'm assuming I'm right in thinking that under a new name's boots being oversized will do weird things in regards to lateral stability?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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even with accurate fitting of a top end consumer boot will not compete with a full spec race boot, your foam liner in that boot is as close as it will get to being there...but put a foam /zip fit inot a race shell and it is like jumping from a ford fiesta to an imprezza full rally car
the most impotant issue is getting that heel and ankle area held well in the boot, with that job done and the foot stable on a footbed then it is pretty simple to stretch the forefoot of most boots to accomodate a wider foot, also grinding shell material away can give a few mm extra all round
Lange have come up with a RS130wide for this coming season 100mm last, whilst it is not the same as a full race boot it is up there with the good fits for coaches boots the heel /ankle area has been kept the same as their 97mm lasted boots just the forefoot is 3mm wider...the only down side on this boot is it has replaceable toe/heel pads so is not as planable as the standard RS130
the boot being oversize will affect the stability ..as to how much will depend on how oversized it is, how narrow or wide the ankle of the user is and generally how that area of the boot fits
back to how it competes high end consumer with full race fit.... normally if someone is going for their euro test then i would suggest that they get a full race fit boot where possible, if that is impractible then a 98mm modified plug boot can normally be made to work.... with the nature of the test you need all the assistance you can get, any slop laterally will be a sure fire way to fail
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CEM, guess my "probably need new liners" issue for next season might rapidly become "probably need new boots" I'm just really unconvinced I'm going to enjoy skiing powder, bumps or non-race course environments with no forgiveness at all. Your technical insight is appriciated as always!
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You know it makes sense.
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DaveC, I have the same boot as under a new name but in the correct size, before that I had an earlier model in one size bigger, there isn't much difference in shell width. Before this I had a pair of retail Nordica GP90 CK Foam boots, shell length was in between my two pairs of Dobermann boots and they were foamed to be as firm as possible but the jump to the real race boots was huge.
I have really narrow feet and have skied in my 95mm last boots before I had them stretched, you will need to trust the bootfitters recommendation that they can make a particular boot work for you.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Arno, cos they match my strides, of course.
DaveC, hmmm, no, "crutch" conveyed well what I think you mean. (I think) when I'm skiing for me, I'm quite centred - but when I'm pootling around with neices and chums-who-ski-to-lunch, I will hang out the front, parking-and-skiing. Zero effort skiing.
CEM, as usual, good points, well made. I am intending to have the not-so-large-menagerist do the job, if he's still supplying boots. Biggest joy for me in the Dobies is the heel hold. Even 1 (2?) sizes too big and I'm rock solid.
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Poster: A snowHead
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under a new name wrote: |
CEM, as usual, good points, well made. I am intending to have the not-so-large-menagerist do the job, if he's still supplying boots. Biggest joy for me in the Dobies is the heel hold. Even 1 (2?) sizes too big and I'm rock solid. |
might be inspiration for another thread...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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under a new name, We'll be around and probably talk about this way more then, have plenty of ideas of a good starting point and am quite confident we can push the boot up in stiffness a fair amount as is needed with a couple of new ideas. Question will remain mainly to tour or not to tour.
P.S. Can we borrow your roller, cheers........
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, cool. cool.
? I don't have a roller I'm afraid...
And stop all that cricketty nonsense anyway...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER wrote: |
under a new name, quite confident we can push the boot up in stiffness a fair amount as is needed with a couple of new ideas. |
mmmm wonder what you could be talking about
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, Odile has a roller she might be prepared to lend you?
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