 Poster: A snowHead
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stoatsbrother, JH runs NASTAR only 3 days a week for 2x 2hour blocks each of those days. Even then they seem inconsistent in actually opening the course. For instance they appear to have only opened 11 days last January.
Of those 11 days 5 were actually held on the Wed/Fri/Sun that they advertise. This sort of messing about puts off most potential racers I know.
Like I said before anyway it is a bit silly using NASTAR as a measure of all racing - keen racers don't just run NASTAR - they are running other courses. Again there is nearly always a significant wait for these. NASTAR is racing for the public - introduction to racing. That is why ski schools etc use it because it is at a suitable level for learning. Good racers use it when they cannot access other courses. Given the choice between a Masters course or a NASTAR I am betting the keen guys will all be skiing Masters courses. Also NASTAR run only GS - no SL, SG or DH so hardly representative of racing as a whole.
If you want to measure popularity though - why don't you measure the number of skier per sq metre of those ridges at Squaw etc and divide by hours they are open - then do the same for the race courses. There may be lots of skiers at lift opening - but I bet the numbers over the day don't stay high, aren't there in spring at 8.30am, not in spring at 4pm either, early season? Brecks NASTAR opens season start to finish 10-3 and uses very little real estate. What is used leaves most of the trail still open. How are these racers stealing space from 'you real skiers' as PJ SKI keeps insisting?
Like I said - do you ski into the start area to look for these queues? As a user of at least 3 of these courses you usually cannot see the people waiting from the lift but they are usually around when you go to register and race. Feel free to link us to your NASTAR profile as you seem to spend plenty of time around the courses and know a lot about them so we'd love to see the results.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Oh and for those that claim none of their friends ever race... Do their kids never go to ski school? USA/Canada/Europe/Australia all have end of week races for ski school or ski school training courses or NASTAR type set ups. Thredbo has a "race course" that is suitable for 3 year olds to snow-plough through.
Ditto the adults in ski school often ski a ski school or NASTAR course or go to end of week races
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, My mistake the Squaw course mustn't be NASTAR endorsed but its definitely public access, pay to play and the start area isn't tucked away being on one of the busiest cattracks on the mountain. It was however laughably flat so I'm not suprised serious racers didn't use it.
I've not got any problem with racers (other than the predominantly teen habit of queuejumping or buzzing lesser skiers en mass, because they are special). Its clear from looking at form that great skiers you see on the mountain often have solid racing backgounds. I'm just supporting stoatsbother's position that even in a country with more of a racing culture and lots more success at the high level its still only a minoity pursuit among the general skiing population. If I lived in an appropiate location would I put my kids into a racing programme - absolutely. Great development, great coaching, fun (most kids ski coaches I meet are real enthusiasts), discipline. But I'd recognise that realistically only about 10 kids in the entire region would have a chance of podiuming in any race and would definitely want to make sure they had a balanced view of things if it wasn't them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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little tiger, my kids have done perhaps 12 weeks ski school each in the US and Canada. Although most kids ski school seems not to be organised in structured "weeks", unlike Europe, so there is no "end-of-week" race. They've through the gates perhaps twice. Not their choice either. They'd rather be in the powder and the trees. Like most of us.
And I haven't done run a NASTAR course for perhaps 10 years, because I think that non-racer adults comparing profiles and shaving milliseconds is sad willy-waving.
At JH the Caspar lift (which is painfully slow) goes right over the start area so you can see exactly what is and what isn't going on. You don't to be an expert to see a bloke looking lonely in his hut. Perhaps the reason they don't open the course very often is because they don't get the demand? 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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stoatsbrother, most of the racers I know only compare their times to their previous times - ie as a measure of their own improvement. Not too much comparing profiles happens that I've seen as most know exactly where they stand. I see far more of that with the "I skied XXX" bunch in the bar than from racers, and yes I agree it is sad willy-waving watching a bunch of them trying to out gun each other on the gnarly stuff they have skied in what gnarly conditions.
Sad the kids do not get to race where you go. The good ski schools I know of all have regular trips through gates - learning to turn on demand is a handy skill, for skiing trees for instance it is kind of handy and gates do less damage to those learning. Maybe try taking them to some different places. Whistler, Park City, Deer Valley all seem to run gates in ski school from my understanding. Breck, Keystone, Vail, Aspen, Beaver creek all do as I see them. Most French, Italian, Austrian ski schools I've heard of run end of week races. Even Thredbo and Falls Creek run a ski school race.
Just had a thought - maybe your kids are getting instructors who are not really capable in gates and so avoid the ski school available courses. That does happen in USA especially as they have no race requirement except in Rocky Mountains and that is very low level - just Gold Nastar will do it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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little tiger, you were sarcastically asking me what my profile was - I was explaining why I don't care. Some of us just find all that boring. You - from the sig line you used to have a few years back - obviously don't.
And no, it's not at all sad my kids don't race. I absolutely accept that race-training can be an important part of a skier's education. But it isn't actually compulsory. And what your last point demonstrates again is the rather condescending attitude that racers can have to those who march to the beat of a different drum. People don't go to JH or Alta or Kicking Horse or La Grave to run gates.
I have skied at all the resorts you mention in your last post (except Falls Creek & Deer Valley - although I nearly got to DV this year), and hope to return to Aspen soon, but there are other resorts in North America that I like more. But thanks for your advice on where our family should holiday! 
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Well if the kids have been to all those places ski schools they almost certainly have been through gates more than twice! Those ski schools all take kids to race courses as part of the lessons. Thredbo even has them on Friday Flat - usually only 3-4 gates - but they are there. Those european resorts all seem to take the end of week race as a given and the kids do get to practise as well. (hey pretty neat that of the 13 areas/ski schools I selected your kids have skied all but 2 in the 12 weeks they have been in ski school?)
No you were saying it was willy-waving - lots of stuff is willy-waving. Having the latest coolest skis/jacket/backpack can be willy-waving too. This is not the same as "boring".
You seem to think everyone cares what every other person is doing in the course, except for competitions(like WC) this does not seem to be the focus of racers I know. They are very focused on what THEY are doing and how they can do it better. Simply put you can only change yourself really.
I find your thought that everyone is comparing themselves to those they ski with so weird and unusual in fact that I have to wonder if this is what you are thinking when you ski with others? Is that why you think others think this way? I've always skied with folks I'll never hope to ski close to - if I felt like you I'd find people who ski poorly to ski with so I felt better about myself. I don't think the folks I ski with ski with each other thinking "wonder if I can beat XXX to that spot" otherwise they would all be straight-lining not turning. Instead they all pull up saying "I got some sweet turns up there" "woah that snow is awesome"
I find it very sad when people find any aspect of skiing boring. I just love skiing that is why I love to learn more about it.
No I don't find racing boring - I find the concrete measure of where my technique is at quite interesting. I like improving and learning. That is why I'm still making good improvements each year.
No sarcasm in asking about NASTAR - we all like to add good skiers to our teams (that is one area where we do like to compare/compete - but we don't really know the other teams as people much of the time - we just like to have a good team)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob,
I read somewhere that the US association makes money through TV rights too. It gets the money directly.
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Great development, great coaching, fun (most kids ski coaches I meet are real enthusiasts), discipline. But I'd recognise that realistically only about 10 kids in the entire region would have a chance of podiuming in any race and would definitely want to make sure they had a balanced view of things if it wasn't them.
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This is our stance exactly. Especially at the lower levels , being in a race club, isn't all about racing. It becomes all about racing by K2 (13 and 14). Our 7 yr old did two races last season, although probably more gate training.
I think the fact that having kids in race club, makes some people see me as pro-Uk race team government funding. I believe we should fund elite sports as a nation, but not necessarily all of them (and I would include ski racing as probably not funded)! I beleive in trickle down effect etc, but don't think it ranks as important in a non-alpine nation who tend not to produce world-beating racers.
A couple of bits of info about US funding.
A couple of weekend ago we were in Montana , the B and B owners were racing enthusiasts. Loved it, travelled to world cup races etc. Their son had been a good racer, but had to give it up because of US finding issues. He once came 10th in Canadain NAtionals, which isn't bad. She said he would have been funded in Canada, but that there is no funding in US. BUT he then got himself a 'ski - scholarship' to Uni, which she said was very worthwhile.
Contrast that with a the brother of a boy we know in calgary. He is 18 and on the Alberta Alpine team. He's giving it all up because he wants to go to uni and there is no way he can coninue. We asked his father whether he regretted all the hours that tey as a family had put in, he said 'no', but I can't help feeling he resents his son's choices, after all they spent their summer holidays in Chile club skiing. They are putting their youngest son through the same approach. Its really gruelling the ski training here, sure you expect it at 18, but at 11, 12 etc? We are in it until the age of 10 and then we won't coninue unless the kids show immense talent.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Been away for the weekend on a (non governement funded) walking trip to Derbyshire. I see we've reached 7 pages and it still boils down to those who want to have their sporting competitions funded by others have their hands out, those who don't don't. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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gryphea, interesting perspective, and a nuanced view.
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| I believe we should fund elite sports as a nation, but not necessarily all of them (and I would include ski racing as probably not funded)! I beleive in trickle down effect etc, but don't think it ranks as important in a non-alpine nation who tend not to produce world-beating racers. |
I'd agree with most of that. I don't think the trickle down effect can happen in a sport where the geographical barriers - outside Scotland, are so high.
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stoatsbrother,
In addition , other countries stand to benefit from World Cup circuit (outside of how their racers do). Eg. Canada (and speciaifally Alberta) gains a lot from the LL world cup race. A boost to tourism at an otherwise quiet time of year for two weekends on the trot. Our local hill, Naksika serves as pre race training for a signiifcant number of national teams. This all brings in money, plus the benefits of having your beautiful scenery beamed world wide for free.
The UK will never reap such benefits, its a one way money transaction, without a huge amount of gain.
Another point here is that parents are dedicated volunteers. We are practically expected to become Level 1 race offcials already (well this season) and as time marches on L2 and L3. The UK hasn't got such a volunteer culture, and its separated from the racing by geography. This makes the costs even higher.
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FAQ
