What I have seen on several occasions is snow fall that starts off as wet heavy snow and as night falls and the temperature drops the snow that is falling gradually changes from wet snow to powder snow and you wake up to powder.
Oh yes, that happens a lot, as the freezing level generally seems to drop on the leading edge of a front. But if it's clag on the ground, it only gets claggier.....
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pam w,
Quote:
But if it's clag on the ground, it only gets claggier.....
Unless its pisted wet snow improves a lot with pisteing I reckon.
As I understand it, freshly fallen snow is often wet. Being wet it seems thick and sometimes may be likened to porridge. Overnight the temperature drops enough to freeze the moisture in the snow. Next morning you should have powder that is great to ski in.
Is this really right? Seems countr-intuitive that wet snow can turn into powder overnight. I also would question the implication that freshly fallen snow is wet -
Both of these statements are largely untrue but do contain elements of truth. In certain climates it possible for snow to fall with relatively high moisture contents then be proceeded by extremely cold weather. Once temperatures drop below a certain point, around -20 i think, the cold will have a dehumidifying effect. What this means is that it is possible for wettish, relatively speaking, snow to fall then be proceeded by extremely cold weather which will have a lightening affect, making the snow more pure/champagne powder like. Though to state that cold will aumatically improve the snowpack is plainly untrue as temperatures have to get relatively low & stay consistently below freezing for this to be the case. However in saying that most of what people conventionally term as powder is direct consequence of the temperature & wind during the actual snowfall which affects the crystal size & as such the overall density or moisture content or lightness of the snow.
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frank4short,
Quote:
Once temperatures drop below a certain point, around -20 i think, the cold will have a dehumidifying effect. What this means is that it is possible for wettish, relatively speaking, snow to fall then be proceeded by extremely cold weather which will have a lightening affect, making the snow more pure/champagne powder like.
I know hoar can form at the surface however for the deep snow to get 'lighter' surely the whole snow pack would have to rise to incorporate the air? I have not heard of this happening.
T Bar, Like i said it's quite rare. I believe it's known to happen in certain areas in the US where lake effect storms are common. Then they can be followed by extremely cold weather periods. As far as i know it also only affects untracked snow. As once snow has been tracked it's cristaline structure is obviously more compacted.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
Unless its pisted wet snow improves a lot with pisteing I reckon.
Oh sure! Long live the brutal grooming, say I.
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After all it is free
In extended cold periods you can get a combination of surface hoar formation and what is known as near surface faceting where the bonds between the crystals become weakened. This does not realy lighten the snowpack but does make it softer to ski.
Last edited by After all it is free on Mon 29-03-10 23:08; edited 1 time in total
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pam w, in December and January I have often skied in snow that has just fallen. Sometimes the new snow seems damp, it sticks to itself and makes snowballs, when deep it is hard to turn in so you need speed or steepness. Overnight the dampness, ie the liquid water, freezes and the snow transforms into a drier, more powdery, form. A form that will not make snowballs and that is much easier to ski in.
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I think that the problem is that we do not have a range of words to cover different types of untracked snow except for powder, champagne powder (which is very rare in Europe) - and, of course, the extreme cases of crust and breakable crust and porridge, and the even more extreme "rotten snow" which I experienced last week, where melt water has created cavities in the snow which collapse when skied on, leaving you suddenly stationary and trapped. You have to resort to such phrases as "packed powder" or "old powder" to refer to the stiffened up versions of powder created over time. The extreme of this, which nobody would call powder but also has no word in English, is no longer soft enough to make a track in and is what you find in un-skied, north facing couloirs, which the French call "soufflé dure" - which is fairly firm but the ski easily grips on.
Better skiers will tend to call rather less powdery, stiffer or wetter snow, "powder" because they can ski it easily and there is no other word. What we really need is an extended vocabulary.
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snowball, but if it's not "powder", there's really nothing wrong with saying "snow", is there? As in "we woke to find cms of fresh snow this morning".
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
What is "champagne powder"? I've heard the term, but no idea how it differs to normal powdery snow. I've seen powder before, the soft dry snow that doesn't stick, but haven't really skied on it.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
"Fresh snow" doesn't tell you much - was it fluffy powder or slush?
There is still a lack of terms. It seems to me people are restricting the term powder to what I would call light powder. In my book you can have week-old powder which is still great to ski but has packed down quite a bit. You do need to ski it with more precision - unlike light powder which forgives almost any mistake. There is no other name for it but powder so calling it packed powder is reasonable.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Tue 30-03-10 12:40; edited 1 time in total
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
pam w, saying "I skied 50 cms of fresh powder yesterday" has a therapeutical effect akin to the cheap-psychology one of telling yourself that you're great, everyone loves you, you deserve the best, you're unique etc. It may not be 100% true but it works if it makes you feel better.
"I skied fresh snow" isn't quite the same, a bit like saying "almost everyone loves you...it's just your girlfriend / boyfriend who doesn't".
That said, we had excellent powder this weekend
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
queen bodecia wrote:
What is "champagne powder"? I've heard the term, but no idea
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Boredsurfing,
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horizon, yes, my last day at Andermatt on Saturday was great. lovely powder early on and higher up, getting progressively wetter lower and later, but overall still great skiing. Easily the best of the week.
The slopes do ski out very quickly there so you then have to walk a bit (and 80% of the skiers have rucksacks so you are not alone). When it froze overnight some of the lower slopes would have been horrible on Sunday till they warmed up again - if they did.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 30-03-10 12:52; edited 1 time in total
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Actually the definition is very simple any Fresh snow that I can ski is powder any fresh snow that I fall over in is crud.
OK time for a definitive list of snow in descending order of attractiveness - by contribution in true snowheads fashion. Horizon can then draw up a handy positionizer plotting them against validity of excuse.
Champagne powder/blower
Windblown or tracked blower
Regular fresh
Tracked fresh (untransformed)
Part Transformed (getting a bit heavy)
Railroaded (skied, transformed then left to set overnight)
Soft Crud (generally cut up but still soft)
Wet untracked
Coral reef (sharp & hard)
Baby heads (chunky and round)
Glop
Heavily rained on glop
Wind polish
Boilerplate
Breakable crust
Groomer
Champagne powder/blower
Windblown or tracked blower
Regular fresh
Tracked snow will always be below untracked snow no matter what type it was before it was tracked!
fatbob wrote:
Coral reef (sharp & hard)
Baby heads (chunky and round)
These are both the same thing & are actually called satstrugi. The variance in size comes down to wind strenght & temperature. Edit - unless in the latter you're referring to avalanche debris. In which case it should move way down the list.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
frank4short wrote:
fatbob wrote:
Champagne powder/blower
Windblown or tracked blower
Regular fresh
Tracked snow will always be below untracked snow no matter what type it was before it was tracked!
fatbob wrote:
Coral reef (sharp & hard)
Baby heads (chunky and round)
These are both the same thing & are actually called satstrugi. The variance in size comes down to wind strenght & temperature. Edit - unless in the latter you're referring to avalanche debris. In which case it should move way down the list.
I put them in for arguments sake but sometimes (admittedly very rarely) tracked blower can almost be as good as the virgin article i.e. it just billows up and fills itself in. Your eyes tell you someone has skied there but its difficult to feel. I admit the baby heads I was thinking off are tose created by skier and sun action rather tahn wind (maybe not vald as this is part of the corn cycle)
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Quote:
"Fresh snow" doesn't tell you much
But at least it isn't wholly misleading, like somebody who describes the stuff you can make rock hard snowmen out of as "powder". If anything which falls out of the sky is called "powder" then the term loses all purpose.
I think we're all agreed that snowman snow is definitely not "powder" so maybe all snow reporters could just pick up a handful and squeeze, before waxing lyrical about "powder".
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fatbob, you missed rotten snow, which I'd possibly put below groomer Only found this once and it was horrific: about 1 -1 1/2 foot of snow that supported your weight until you tried to turn at which point you straight through and hit the scree below, horrible. I think you should have put spring snow in, would be interesting to see where. I'd have slush near the top: the time that groomed snow becomes fun: when it's almost more liquid than solid.
I guess your baby heads are avvy debris, how horrific it is depends on how frozen it is IMO, admittedly whne it gets big then it's always going to be frozen in the middle. Don't think I've ever seen anyone ride that with any semblance of style.
LOL! Most of these terms mean very little to me. I assume 'groomer' is what I ski on, for which there are probably a whole host of subterms ranging from 'fresh topsoil' to 'icy hardpack' to 'soggy mashed potato'.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
queen bodecia, you are correct
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
I'm not sure if, by "part transformed", you mean by heat (becoming wetter) or just the gradual settling or stiffening over time (perhaps on a north facing slope). Obviously quite different and this last having a great variety of degree.
Of course the snow report is always going to put the best spin on whatever the conditions are. So "Packed powder" is realy just groomed snow that might have once been powder but more likely was once crud, sluch ice and machine made snow all kind of blended by the tiller on the groomer.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
lt81 wrote:
Powder in Colorado - Copper Mountain last year was amazing. Fell in as deep as my waist but didn't get wet at all! Champagne powder I believe
I though Champagne Poder (TM/R/..) was only allowed to fall in Steamboat?
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stuarth, sorry, I think the Canadian Rockies have marketing rights on that one... don't they?!
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
snowball wrote:
I'm not sure if, by "part transformed", you mean by heat (becoming wetter) or just the gradual settling or stiffening over time (perhaps on a north facing slope). Obviously quite different and this last having a great variety of degree.
IME really light dry or cold snow doesn't transform due to skier action whereas wet or warm snow does, regardless of what happens temp/sun wise during the day so some days "sloppy seconds" really aren't that good while on others they can be very enjoyable. I've heard US instructors call it being "set up" although I think this term also applies to progressive warming.
I've missed chalk off the list and can't think where to put it.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
arv wrote:
stuarth, sorry, I think the Canadian Rockies have marketing rights on that one... don't they?!
No, it's the French. Everyone else has to call it Sparkling Wine Powder.
I'm not sure if, by "part transformed", you mean by heat (becoming wetter) or just the gradual settling or stiffening over time (perhaps on a north facing slope). Obviously quite different and this last having a great variety of degree.
IME really light dry or cold snow doesn't transform due to skier action whereas wet or warm snow does, regardless of what happens temp/sun wise during the day so some days "sloppy seconds" really aren't that good while on others they can be very enjoyable. I've heard US instructors call it being "set up" although I think this term also applies to progressive warming.
I've missed chalk off the list and can't think where to put it.
Now I'm even more confused - I presumed you were talking about unskied snow and now you are talking about skier action
Is chalk what the french call souflé dure?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Interesting discussion. For me powder is the stuff arriving for me at Alta tomorrow, 12 inches.
I dunno what it is technically but there's well over 175cm of it beckoning to me on Cairngorm
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
stoatsbrother, Thats nowt, I tell thee - they arranged for 20 inches on our last day and locals were complaining it wasnt enough.
Enjoy your 12 inches
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After all it is free
Powder is the light white stuff that we spent today skiing in.
deepest day of the season (so far )
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RPF, I agree, it is what we spent all day skiing in today as well over in Les Arcs (very happy), I hope it stays cold so that it lasts this time. How high is Le Chable?
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Bones, well they delivered 19 inches in the end with more to come and we have another 6 days here to enjoy it