 Poster: A snowHead
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All this nice new white stuff is very welcome but unless our particular neck of the French Alps has done particularly badly in the last 24 hours, I wouldn't describe what has fallen as "powder". It is snow, certainly, but pretty wet - the sort of stuff which makes a lovely snowman.
For example somebody said there was 25cms of "fresh powder" at the top of the Champagny gondola. That's about the same height as our lift I think (2000m) and I certainly wouldn't describe what was up there today as "fresh powder". Maybe Champagny had much colder weather.
So, my question is - is there a kind of freshly fallen snow which should not honestly be described as "powder"?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I fear the Whistlerites and Fernieites will take exception 
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Mike Pow, why? do they have lots of snowmanstuff which they describe as powder?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think I've skied powder. It fell when it was very cold, and could be shook through the fingers of the ski gloves and fell like fresh icing sugar does through the fingers. Does that sound like powder?
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pam w, we had powder at the top of Cornu this morning 30-35cms. Got heavy through the day though.
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| Quote: |
Does that sound like powder?
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Yes. You can't possibly press it into a snowball. I met someone at a wedding in Chicago a few years ago who told me abou the Utah powder. Sounds fantastic. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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pam w, we had 4 cm of that type of powder on Zauchensee yesterday, was super- aggressive snow, caught my edges more than once 
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Powder in Colorado - Copper Mountain last year was amazing. Fell in as deep as my waist but didn't get wet at all! Champagne powder I believe 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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DAB, you mean the "wrong sort of powder"? Yes, it is aggressive - need to be careful with the edges and not leave a pole behind.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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pam w, my son was SO upset he had the twin tips on(Finally a day off from gate training)and was SO looking forward to it, but you just went nowhere. Very deceptive!
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all the snow that fell on NBT towers back in January was proper powder, it was awful as
1) Mrs NBT couldn't make a snowman
and
2) it reminded us of the Utah powder we skiiied last year, during a season where it looks like we may not get any skiing
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You know it makes sense.
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My understanding is that it's due to temperature. The new snow we had in La Thuile this year was dry and soft, not at all sticky and the air temperature was -14º at the time. New snow in Kitzbühel in March 2008 was thick, heavy and sticky, more like the snow we get in the UK, air temperature was around -4º.
For skiing purposes the colder stuff is faster and you don't get soaked through if you fall in it.
Just the observations of an interested but scientifically-challenged layperson.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As I understand it, freshly fallen snow is often wet. Being wet it seems thick and sometimes may be likened to porridge. Overnight the temperature drops enough to freeze the moisture in the snow. Next morning you should have powder that is great to ski in. However many other factors also affect the snow and whether it can be regarded as powder. As winter in Dec/Jan turns into spring in Mar/Apr the way the results of the overnight snow transformations changes. My experience is mostly with winter powder in France.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Spiky snowgrains when cold = powder.
Rounded snowgrains when warm = porridge.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Whitegold, is it only snowflake shape which makes a difference, or does water content play a part?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm a bit puzzled about this water content thing. I thought snow was 100% water.
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planeurge, In a cubic meter of snow you won't have a cubic meter of water. There will be a lot of air. The more air the lighter the snow.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I suspect that if you think about it you have answered your own question. The only thing influencing the concentration of water in a given volume will be the structure of the ice crystals. There is no other ingredient.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| planeurge, In a cubic meter of snow you won't have a cubic meter of water. There will be a lot of air. The more air the lighter the snow. |
Approx 90 -95% air in uncompacted snow  useful site
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planeurge, size of snowflake might have an effect, not just shape of snowflake?
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planeurge, yes water=H2O, but it comes in (at least) three states: frozen or liquid or gasseous. These states are often distinguished by calling them ice (or snow), water and steam (or vapour). My previous post was intended to convey the notion that freshly fallen snow is mostly frozen water, but includes a portion of liquid or gasseous water.
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There is quite a good graph in this New Scientist article - http://www.newscientist.com/gallery/dn16170-snowflakes/13 - which shows some of these points. My understanding is the temperature the snow is falling at, along with other factors like wind and humidity, will alter the shape and size of the crystals which form. And the shape and size the crystals form will have a direct impact on the density of the snow that falls?
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I've obviously used the wrong emoticon. It was meant as a light-hearted remark, not a physics thesis.
FWIW in aviation the assumed SG of dry snow is 0.25 - seemingly an overestimate in the light of the figures given in the link above. But that would be the cautious approach, as the effect being allowed for in the aviation context is impingement drag during take-off...
The starting point of the thread was, I think, its subjective quality as perceived by skiers, rather than its physical structure.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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For comparisons sake the specific gravity of something like ESB can be 1.060.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Usually less the 10% water by volume. To get this you need nice shaped flakes that have not been melted or damaged by wind. Snow flakes come in a wide variety of structures and the lightest are the good old star shaped ones properly known as spatial dendrites. Not rods or columns.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Sun 28-03-10 23:59; edited 1 time in total
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Forget the science its all about the yee-haa count.
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You know it makes sense.
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jbob, So true. But if it is more than 10% it is going to be heavy. Of course the boarders will still be ripping it up.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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nozawaonsen, when you click through to the photographs, they are beautiful and astonishing. ESB? Some kind of ale? jbob,
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Poster: A snowHead
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"I'll take trillions of image 6 on a 3m base for $53 please Alex"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Apparently Hokkaido's snow has a 4% water content compared to Utah's average 6-7% and Whistler's 15-20%.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 29-03-10 11:52; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I look at it as a spectrum of dryness from blower to goop. Most fresh snow falls the acceptable side of goop but occasionally there will be a very wet storm that is very unpleasant to ski. Dryer does not necessarily mean better - you can drop through 30cm+ of blower and hit rocks underneath and Maritime or Sierra snowpack sticks to higher angle slopes more safely.
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nozawaonsen,
I think it depends on the season and the weather.
Got the same wet snow when I skied Hokaido in mid March a couple of years back. Not much improvement when I was in Colorado mid Feb to early Mar going round 11 skiing facilities.
If the weather is dry you can get it at the top of some glaciers. The last time I hit it was in Zermatt. Have to be reasonably high though.
If you run into a icy patch in a glacier that proves powder was there and and had been blown away.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 29-03-10 15:31; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I think it depends on the season and the weather.
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You are absolutely right saikee those are just representative averages. Higher temperatures, like those which you might get in March even in Hokkaido, will radically alter how the crystals form and therefore how dense and wet the snow that settles is.
In my own experience by far the "driest" snow I've skied happens to be in Japan (in January and February though rather then March).
And for what it is worth this season some of the driest (most powdery) snow I skied was in Austria, in Ischgl in mid December. When it was very cold indeed...
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| Quote: |
As I understand it, freshly fallen snow is often wet. Being wet it seems thick and sometimes may be likened to porridge. Overnight the temperature drops enough to freeze the moisture in the snow. Next morning you should have powder that is great to ski in.
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Is this really right? Seems countr-intuitive that wet snow can turn into powder overnight. I also would question the implication that freshly fallen snow is wet - we've had plenty of nice, dry snow this year (my grand-daughter was very disappointed when they arrived at Christmas when it was impossible to build a snowman) but the last lot was clag. Certainly very heavy round here at the moment - there are signs around at the lifts, warning of the very heavy snow off piste. Boarders still ripping it up in some very impressive style, though, as someone noted above. Not me though. Waterskiing on piste, rather. Through a 6" deep puddle at one point, though that was very low down (1100m, a mistake......). It was a lot more pleasant to ski through than some of the very sticky snow around it, actually, lovely slooshy noise.
My motivation in starting this thread was to question why newly fallen snow is inevitably greeted as "powder" even when it manifestly is nothing of the sort. We should campaign for a bit more honesty in snow-reporting.
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newly fallen snow is inevitably greeted as "powder" even when it manifestly is nothing of the sort
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Fair point. I've often thought this was a bit suspect. Or at the very least optimistic...
I'd have thought wet snow that gets frozen will be more likely to turn into something really hard and tricky to ski rather than powder? But I guess it might depend on how wet and how cold??
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brian
brian
Guest
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Even worse, the oxymoronic "packed powder". 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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brian,  I skied through 6" of "melted powder" today! Rapidly followed by some almost completely evaporated powder.
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pam w,
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Seems countr-intuitive that wet snow can turn into powder overnight.
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I guess it depends what you mean, snow that has fallen obviously won't turn into powder overnight, you don't suddenly get extra air in it.
What I have seen on several occasions is snow fall that starts off as wet heavy snow and as night falls and the temperature drops the snow that is falling gradually changes from wet snow to powder snow and you wake up to powder.
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FAQ
Deffinately isnt powder.
