 Poster: A snowHead
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| bum wrote: |
| No, I am happy to acknowledge that conclusion, but it's always worth having had the discussion, rob@rar |
Good. I agree that it's always worth having the discussion. So if you acknowledge that a direct to parallel method based on some form of hockey-stop type turn is not a sensible way forward, what alternatives are there to the progression of straight running, plough, plough-parallel, parallel (or whatever terminology different systems of instructor training use for essentially the same thing)? I can't think of an alternative that is better than that method. Do you have any ideas?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| spot on. Method of turn irrelevant. Competence and fitness are the issues. |
They may seem like the issues, but remember that Carl Ettlinger - back in 1986, in the earliest articles on this topic in Skiing Magazine (U.S.) - identified identical ACL injuries to beginners and racers (who are hardly incompetent or unfit). Both groups have falls where sitting back combines with the ski going on edge and wrenching the knee.
I don't think the method of turn is irrelevant. Rotating the feet in opposition (left foot clockwise, right foot anti-clockwise) in a snowplough puts more stress into the equation than a parallel turn.
It's the nature of the fall that is key to this so - as previously mentioned - we should be focusing on ski technique and progression which minimises falls and awkwardness of falls.
Maybe it would be good to get some knee surgeons involved in developing safer ways to teach and learn skiing. |
Jeez David - read the whole thread. I have already suggested that the snowplough might increase knee injury risk.
I meant - as did QB here, that in this particular circumstance shown in the photo, they could have hurt themselves attempting any type of turn. And given their posture and that their forward impetus on hitting this snow bank would have thrown them forwards it is difficult to conclude anything more that R@Rs suggestion that they thew themselves out the back door rather than the side door. They could have done that as easily doing a hockey stop and catching the tip of one ski. What seems to have cause the injury is not very good skier hitting a snow bank and falling badly.
The racer bit is just irrelevant to the particular photo we are now discussing. Interesting but totally irrelevant to where we are in this discussion. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| bum wrote: |
| No, I am happy to acknowledge that conclusion, but it's always worth having had the discussion, rob@rar |
Agreed - it is. You have made some good points and raised some questions that have been interesting, so thank you.
Personally I feel the snowplough is an essential element of one's first steps (so to speak) on skis. Having a stable base provided by the large triangle described by two skis in a snowplough gives a complete beginner confidence in knowing you won't fall over, even if you are moving. Expanding upon that to show how you can control speed and direction then further builds confidence and starts providing the ability to ski where and how one wishes. We've just been through this with a friend skiing for the first time a couple of weeks ago - his ACL went a year ago playing rugby incidentally. He started off snowploughing, learning control and about how edges work and how to feel the snow, and by the end of the week was skiing parallel very nicely. Helped that he is supremely fit.
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| bum wrote: |
Red skier is downhill. Mike Pow, you say that this fall could have happened skiing parallel, but surely the fact that she tried to hold the plough to stop meant that her legs ended up pointing in different directions, no?
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Looks to me that both tips are embedded into the bank. This could happen in a plough or a parallel stance.
4 outcomes.
Fall over the front of the skis - go over the handlebars
Fall on to the left hip
Fall on to the right hip
Fall backwards, as shown
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bum wrote: |
| No, I am happy to acknowledge that conclusion, but it's always worth having had the discussion, rob@rar |
Good. I agree that it's always worth having the discussion. So if you acknowledge that a direct to parallel method based on some form of hockey-stop type turn is not a sensible way forward, what alternatives are there to the progression of straight running, plough, plough-parallel, parallel (or whatever terminology different systems of instructor training use for essentially the same thing)? I can't think of an alternative that is better than that method. Do you have any ideas? |
Rob, how about my 'straight to side slide' technique? The novice doesn't have to turn at all. just starts off sideways to the slope and learns to hold on their edges (easy), gradually release and slide (still pretty easy) and stop again (easy peasy). rince and repeat until confident, then start letting the skis point slightly down hill before stopping. progress to falling leaf (forwards and backwards) and finally to sliding washed out parrallel 'J' turns.
Would this be bad for later progression?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bum wrote: |
| No, I am happy to acknowledge that conclusion, but it's always worth having had the discussion, rob@rar |
Good. I agree that it's always worth having the discussion. So if you acknowledge that a direct to parallel method based on some form of hockey-stop type turn is not a sensible way forward, what alternatives are there to the progression of straight running, plough, plough-parallel, parallel (or whatever terminology different systems of instructor training use for essentially the same thing)? I can't think of an alternative that is better than that method. Do you have any ideas? |
Well I guess that's the six million dollar question, and if I had the answer, then I wouldn't be sitting in front of my PC now but relaxing on the slopes with my own ski school!
But if we accept that the snowplough is essential for beginners, and that it does lead to a particular pattern of knee injury due to the twisting force exerted on the knee, perhaps there is a way to advance the development of the ski binding release mechanism to cater for these type of skiers, more than just the DIN setting?
Also, many beginners readily accept helmets nowadays, even though the risk of head injury is magnitudes smaller than the risk of knee injury. But when was the last time you saw a beginner try to protect their knee? Maybe the development of specific knee braces should be encouraged as much as the rest of the ski equipment?
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I think one of the big drawbacks is that too many instructors and friends teach beginners:
a braking plough with pressure on the inside edges of both skis - this will stop you but it's very difficult to get beginners to get off those 'safety blanket' edges and make turns, especially in a confined area e.g. this pic
versus
a gliding wedge where the dynamic of turning is the slow down mechanism.
If you had any doubts, I teach the latter 
PS posted this while roga was posting. and agree with his/her post.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| bum wrote: |
| But if we accept that the snowplough is essential for beginners, |
I accept that.
| bum wrote: |
| and that it does lead to a particular pattern of knee injury due to the twisting force exerted on the knee, |
I don't accept that.
I don't see a widespread epidemic of knee injuries as a result of snowploughing, so I can't accept that there is a pattern of knee injury as a result of a particular type of turn. The examples you've quoted seem nothing more than unfortunate accidents, which can happen to any level of skier making any type of turn (I broke a rib and tore shoulder muscles this season as a result of failing to complete a parallel turn - I'm not questioning their utility in a skier's toolbox).
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bum wrote: |
| and that it does lead to a particular pattern of knee injury due to the twisting force exerted on the knee, |
I don't accept that. |
This is my logic - tell me where I've gone wrong. The snow plough involves internally rotating the lower limbs, in opposite directions. General parallel skiing, carving and side slipping does not.
When you rotate a lower limb, the rotational force is exerted down the whole limb from the hip to the ski. The knee does not rotate because it is a hinge joint and the ligaments prevent it from rotating. But the rotational force is still applied to those ligaments, and when that force becomes excessive, like in a fall, it leads to their rupture.
(Remember the video of how Michael Owen ruptured his ACL and MCL by twisting his knee in the game against Sweden?)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| bum wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| bum wrote: |
| and that it does lead to a particular pattern of knee injury due to the twisting force exerted on the knee, |
I don't accept that. |
This is my logic - tell me where I've gone wrong. |
My paragraph which follows that quote explains what I mean. I don't see the snowplough turn as especially dangerous. Yes, accidents can happen when snowploughing, as they can in all others ways of steering your skis. These injuries can be minimised by good teaching, as well as the skier staying on appropriate terrain, but you can't guarantee injury-free skiing in any context.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Axsman wrote: |
| Rob, how about my 'straight to side slide' technique? The novice doesn't have to turn at all. just starts off sideways to the slope and learns to hold on their edges (easy), gradually release and slide (still pretty easy) and stop again (easy peasy). rince and repeat until confident, then start letting the skis point slightly down hill before stopping. progress to falling leaf (forwards and backwards) and finally to sliding washed out parrallel 'J' turns. |
Sounds like the first lesson/stage of learning to board
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rob@rar, oh I see what you mean. I guess more studies need to be done to elicit the patterns of falls of beginners to know whether the phenomenon of snow plough falls and ACL rupture really exists or whether it only exists in my imagination (and the 'freak' accidents of my friends)! 
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You know it makes sense.
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rayscoops, exactly!  Two of my kids switched from skiing to boarding and that is how they learned. I have ever since wondered if perhaps learning edging technique first would be a viable alternative to the painful 'learn to snow plough, then learn not to' path followed by 99% of skiers (including me).
I'm not suggesting the snowplough should be 'banned'' I found it useful only today. But why does it have to be the ONLY introduction route for beginners?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Axsman wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| bum wrote: |
| No, I am happy to acknowledge that conclusion, but it's always worth having had the discussion, rob@rar |
Good. I agree that it's always worth having the discussion. So if you acknowledge that a direct to parallel method based on some form of hockey-stop type turn is not a sensible way forward, what alternatives are there to the progression of straight running, plough, plough-parallel, parallel (or whatever terminology different systems of instructor training use for essentially the same thing)? I can't think of an alternative that is better than that method. Do you have any ideas? |
Rob, how about my 'straight to side slide' technique? The novice doesn't have to turn at all. just starts off sideways to the slope and learns to hold on their edges (easy), gradually release and slide (still pretty easy) and stop again (easy peasy). rince and repeat until confident, then start letting the skis point slightly down hill before stopping. progress to falling leaf (forwards and backwards) and finally to sliding washed out parrallel 'J' turns.
Would this be bad for later progression? |
Oops, sorry, I missed this.
In general the straight to parallel technique is problematic, IMO, because to make parallel turns you need to have a certain amount of speed in order to balance your centre of mass inside your skis. For nervous skiers it is this speed which is too intimidating to manage, so the direct to parallel method fails for them. For confident beginners who are happy to reach that speed after just a few hours on snow they progress to making parallel turns pretty quickly, so a direct to parallel method is kind of irrelevant. With your 'straight to side slide' approach at some point skiers have to change edges in order to make a turn. If they can't balance inside parallel skis, and then move their centre of mass across those skis into the new they will simply fall over. The reason we put them into a plough shape is that the inside leg acts just like stabiliser on a bike - as soon as they are going fast enough to balance we take away the stabiliser (this is done progressively through matching the skis to parallel earlier and earlier in the turn).
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Poster: A snowHead
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bum, actually, you wouuld have to do a comparative study of people learning by snowploughing and learning by GLM/evolutif etc, wouldn't you?
What you would not be doing though is teaching people to turn using the hockey stop as a step on that journey. Something else would have to replace the snowplough as an intermediate step. And whatever turn you decide to use is going to involve some rotatory forces, maybe less than in snowploughing.
Do you now accept that it was really your friend +/- you who were culpable here rather than the ski school?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, Ok Thnaks for the answer. I guess it's the 'changing edges' that is the tricky bit. From personal observation, beginner snowboarders deal with this using the developing technique of 'falling on their A$$'. This may account for their later progression to 'sitting across the piste' 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Axsman wrote: |
| rayscoops, exactly! Two of my kids switched from skiing to boarding and that is how they learned. I have ever since wondered if perhaps learning edging technique first would be a viable alternative to the painful 'learn to snow plough, then learn not to' path followed by 99% of skiers (including me). |
The trouble with working on edging skills first is that an edged ski is a fast way to turn (eg a carved turn) whereas a rotated ski is a slow way to turn (eg a skidded steered turn). The priority with beginners is to keep speed to a non-threatening level.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Do you now accept that it was really your friend +/- you who were culpable here rather than the ski school? |
stoatsbrother, well if you ask it like that, then yes. One has only themselves to blame for throwing oneself down a mountain strapped to two planks of wood / composite carbon fibre polymer plastic.
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Picture looks like a "must stay away from scary edge and stay really close to friendly mountainside" kind of fall to me... Every time I've done that (and there have been a few, given the silly issues I have with edges and heights) I've landed on my side with no more damage than a cold midriff (snow skirt and trousers too loose) and a loss of dignity. Hockey stops are not an option in that situation - too much potential for approaching the scary side of the piste in an out of control fashion - I still wouldn't hockey stop on a narrow piste with a "scary edge" unless my only other option was a collision with someone. I can usually manage about 2 normal parallel turns before I scare myself my getting too close to the side and reverting to a sideslip looking at the mountain, occaisonally rotating skis more downhill when feeling brave/needing to speed up.
Given that the stereotypical beginner knee ligament injury demographic is the nervous/control freak female (probably with some similar fears to me!), the necessary speed for a direct to parallel approach would be a real issue. It took a scary thunderstorm before I managed to let go of my fear of speed (fasted than a slow walking pace! (fear of thunderstorm> fear of speed = parallel turns!)
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The trouble with working on edging skills first is that an edged ski is a fast way to turn (eg a carved turn) whereas a rotated ski is a slow way to turn (eg a skidded steered turn). The priority with beginners is to keep speed to a non-threatening level.
rob@rar, not disagreeing with you (because the beginner should be encouraged to travel at a low speed) but I find it hard to believe there are many (if any) beginners who (even wearing a pair of the carviest carving skis on the planet) could deliberately or accidentally get into a carved turn rather than just a parallel skidded one in the first few days that they would otherwise be using to learn controlled snowploughing skills. I also can't imagine a virgin skier quickly getting their heads around the leg/hip angulation and upper body facing in the mean direction of travel concepts therefore it's hard to believe some of the gumf I seem to recollect reading here about natural athletes carving parallel by the end of their third day' etc. Since physics dictates the load required to make the skis carve rather than skier's blagging skills, I think those claims would normally be the skier words rather than their instructor's.
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moffatross, I'm not saying they are carving, I was simply giving that as an example of an edged ski being a fast ski.
I've seen plenty of beginners who have an excessively wide snowplough which means their ski is on too high an edge angle. This means it's difficult to steer the ski by rotating the leg. The ski can get 'locked' on to an edge and accelerate as there is little resistance to it sliding down the slope. It is often the inside ski which is locked on an edge, which makes it very difficult for the beginner to complete their turn across the hill as the edged ski is unintentionally aiming down the slope.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, OK, got you now. In your example though, isn't that a classic scenario where the blades>short skis>long skis, 'ski evolutiv' method would've helped ?
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I echo roga's view that in the photo the skier didn't even turn away from the piste boundary.
The photo has two clear straight line markings showing
(1) She was skiing virtually sideway ("across" and not "along" or "with" the run) and straight into a pile of snow outside the groomed track.
(2) The "constant width" ski marks left behind suggests that she wasn't doing any turn with a fixed skiing posture . Thus she was out of control even before she reached the piste limit. It is a basic skiing skill to swerve away from the boundary.
Seem to me she was skiing on a run beyond her ability and has not yet mastered the snow plough to slow herself down or do turns on that piste.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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saikee, I realise that photo wasn't the best example of someone falling in a snow plough position, but I didn't manage to capture the actual fall that injured her knee, and I couldn't find a better photo. It was an example merely to illustrate the kind of body position some beginners end up in when falling from a plough, and the resultant rotatory stress on the knees.
You're right, in that photo she turned her snowplough sideways into the snow on the left. It's more due to lack of concentration rather than on a run beyond her ability. The run in the photo is almost flat, what most resorts would class as a long flat green.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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^ so she wasn't actually trying to stop or slow down?
I ask because that's the impression you've been giving prior to that comment and it's all a little contradictory and confusing.
From your latest comments I'd suggest that the problem lies in the lack of concentration rather than in anything else, for that matter if the run was almost flat I wouldn't expect there to be very much of a snowplough being used at all, if any, by anyone who was beyond the most basic level - is this the one week or two week skier?
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roga, by almost flat, I mean a run in which I would be happy to simply point my skis down and pick up as much as possible, but one in which most beginners would still want to snow plough to prevent them picking up that speed. By analysing her snow plough position, I would think that she was trying to slow down at the time.
Yes, lack of concentration tends to be a major factor in most falls (especially my own) but that's not what I was trying to discuss in this thread.
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You know it makes sense.
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| bum wrote: |
| roga, by almost flat, I mean a run in which I would be happy to simply point my skis down and pick up as much as possible, but one in which most beginners would still want to snow plough to prevent them picking up that speed. |
Was this the one week or two week skier?
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| By analysing her snow plough position, I would think that she was trying to slow down at the time. |
I'm not sure you can necessarily come to that conclusion, did she say that was what she was doing or did you clearly see her trying to slow down?
The problem by your own admission though was the lack of concentration not the plough. For example if I'm driving along a road not concentrating on the vehicle in front and end up driving into the back of it despite braking at the last second the fault lies with me not with the brakes!
| Quote: |
| Yes, lack of concentration tends to be a major factor in most falls (especially my own) but that's not what I was trying to discuss in this thread. |
I appreciate that's not what you were trying to discuss but if lack of concentration is the major factor in most falls (I'm not sure it is to be honest) why should we not discuss it?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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But if you lose concentration and fall in the plough position, or if you lose concentration and fall in the parallel position, are your injuries any different? That's what I was discussing.
I think I'm going around in circles again!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| bum wrote: |
| But if you lose concentration and fall in the plough position, or if you lose concentration and fall in the parallel position, are your injuries any different? That's what I was discussing. |
It depends on how you decide to fall. If you're in a plough you normally have a choice of sitting backwards (at some risk to your knees) or sitting sideways (at some risk to wrist, arm, shoulder if you stick your arm out, otherwise just flop on to a hip). I had a beginner this season who had a previous knee injury and was very nervous about hurting it again. I kept on reinforcing the need for her to flop sideways if she'd felt she'd lost it - she only ever fell sideways, never backwards.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| moffatross wrote: |
| rob@rar, OK, got you now. In your example though, isn't that a classic scenario where the blades>short skis>long skis, 'ski evolutiv' method would've helped ? |
I think there's a great risk with short skis of letting skiers develop an excessive reliance on rotation to the detriment of pressure and edging skills (see endless debates here about blades). I can't see what's wrong with the progression taught by instructors the world over? A well executed snowplough has all the elements of high end skiing, so why not start to develop those elements with beginners in their first week of skiing?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| rob@rar wrote: |
A well executed snowplough has all the elements of high end skiing, so why not start to develop those elements with beginners in their first week of skiing? |
Indeed, and I am sure I'm not alone in sometimes taking basic parallel skiers back to a snowplough turn in order to revisit the basic elements of turning.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| ccl wrote: |
| Indeed, and I am sure I'm not alone in sometimes taking basic parallel skiers back to a snowplough turn in order to revisit the basic elements of turning. |
I've tried that with good parallel skiers as a drill. Much grumbles and not a few red faces (when it is realised that a good snowplough is not so easy) normally results! A very good (ex pro-freerider) on my L1 BASI really, really struggled with high quality plough demos required to pass. Got there in the end, but had to spend several hours practicing to get things right.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| bum wrote: |
| But if you lose concentration and fall in the plough position, or if you lose concentration and fall in the parallel position, are your injuries any different? That's what I was discussing. |
Most falls in plough or parallel do not result in injuries and I'm actually quite perplexed by your emphasis on the injuries, at the end of the day sh*t sometimes happens, c'est la vie!
However, in a tiny percentage of cases there are injuries and given the injuries most often suffered by beginners and competitors/advanced skiers are as I understand it to the knee ligaments I'm not sure they are significantly different to be honest! If you are really so interested in the subject why not e-mail Dr Mike and ask him cos he'll have all the answers and stats.
| Quote: |
| I think I'm going around in circles again! |
Well, essentially the thread is going round in circles because as far as I can see we're all stating the same things over and over again in different ways perhaps but we are making slow progress!
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| It depends on how you decide to fall. If you're in a plough you normally have a choice of sitting backwards (at some risk to your knees) or sitting sideways (at some risk to wrist, arm, shoulder if you stick your arm out, otherwise just flop on to a hip). I had a beginner this season who had a previous knee injury and was very nervous about hurting it again. I kept on reinforcing the need for her to flop sideways if she'd felt she'd lost it - she only ever fell sideways, never backwards. |
Agree strongly with this - on dry it could be argued that it's even more important to emphasise this because a backwards fall can often lead to the skier carrying on down the slope whilst down and in these circumstances the inclination in my experience is to grab onto the matting in order to try to slow down. This can easily lead to sprained or broken fingers as a result of their getting trapped in the matting - very nasty!
I mention how to fall on both surfaces but take particular care to emphasise the point on dry and to tell clients that a sideways fall is preferable. In my experience this tends to work, not always but mostly, so it does IMHO have an affect.
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I'm pretty sure I remember being 'taught' how to fall. Something along the lines of, if all else fails and you've got to bail, this is how best to do it in order to avoid injury. OK so this was a long time ago, but it definitely did not involve sitting back on the tails of my skis.
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bum, I think most of us have had awkward falls - I've certainly been in the position shown in your photos but my knees didn't pop. So shouldn't it be by your reasoning "ban over 25s from learning to ski"? Btw, I've fallen like your friend, I was tired and scared - nothing to do with the snowplough per se.
Anyway, remember to tune in next year folks when we'll learn of bum's friend's injuries as caused by hockey stops.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hockey stops should be banned.
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paulio,
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FAQ
