 Poster: A snowHead
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LOL stoatsbrother I am not colorectal! But I do have an interest in ortho, but not enough to do a whole study on it.
Yup, middle aged women seem to rupture their ACL so much more easily than any other cohort. Maybe I should just be banned from skiing with middle aged women who snow plough. 
PS. No, they weren't there at my urging. Their husbands were there too. Maybe that's a pattern worth investigating...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
bum, ok - as another quack - with an interest, but not expertise in ski injuries - the classical knee injury is as you know in a low speed twisting fall, and the highest likelihood (per skier hour) is in a middle-aged women. The slow speed bit is probably because the forces on the binding accumulate in a progressive manner rather than a sudden impulse, and the boot side may be interacting with the ground directly bypassing the binding (This is one of DGs areas of expertise - be interesting to hear what he says)
The snowplough does inherently pose some risk because of the implicit valgus strain on the knees leading to potential MCL (or even "holy trinity" - MCL + ACL + Med meniscus damage) when the position goes too far, but the same can happen in twisting injuries on flattish pistes, doing hockey stops, being collided into etc etc. I guess I probably only see 1 or 2 of these a year, but I always go into details on exactly where and what was happening, and I cannot remember snowploughing being a frequent feature. If you are a sports physician or knee surgeon and have some evidence about this I would be interested. Perhaps given your username you are colorectal surgeon? I think there is no doubt that the snowplough position is more comfortable for kids than for adults.
However the snowplough is not only a good turn-of-last-resort (even occasionally in moguls at slow speed) but it is a good way of learning what edging and weighting differentially feels like. And it is interesting that the evolutif and GLM never really caught on more widely.
The clear message for me here is that not once, but twice, you accompanied skiers of limited ability, perhaps at their urging, into terrain for which they did not possess the requisite skills and they injured themselves.
Perhaps the thread title should be "I should be banned from skiing with less experienced friends".  |
I'm not a doctor, but it feels to me like a failed parallel stop is worse for knees than a failed snowplough. Certainly I could feel heavy snow/slush dragging on my knees as I stopped parallel (although I accept that I may not have had my skis weighted appropriately for slushy stuff. The snowplough to a halt was less painful.
I think that I progress best with a combination of going to the edge of my comfort zone (bumpy stuff, steeper groomed pistes) and working on skills within my comfort zone. However I became happy quite early with the concept of turning slightly uphill to slow down (MK ski in a day, about hour 2!) I have also learned that deliberate skids are a good way to lose unwanted speed provided the snow is right (fat chance of me carving, I like the speed I go at the moment and have no great urge to increase it massively). These two things are my safety nets, together with sideslipping/pivots. The time I was most out of my comfort zone on last week's holiday was actually on a horrible open standing gondola lift called Croisette in Les Menuires (tears, hugging nice solid metal post attaching lift to wire!). I had a bit of a moment on a red piste where the top of the piste was narrowish, but was of similar steepness and width to most blue tracks (the red bit was the lovely piste which followed, the site of the mass crash mentioned in one of the other threads. My comfort zone as a skiier is more related to fear of heights, and given it has improved with effort, it makes sense to keep pushing my limits as it's not a technical thing, but a mentalthing
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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bum,
If you teach someone to hockey stop, all you are doing is teaching them to stop. In teaching someone to snowplough, they learn to stop, turn, weight the skis, edge, etc - and get used to the feel of sliding on snow in a stable platform. It is not diffiicult to go from snowploughing into parallel turns either, and I've always seen at least the beginnings of parallel skiing from my guests after their first week. Going straight into a parallel hockey stop is beyond most beginner skiers anyway.
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bum, with regards your comments about skiing injuries being "common" I suggest you take a look at Dr Mike Langran's www.ski-injury.com and perhaps reconsider your comments, for example this from the FAQ:
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| I don't personally regard snow sports in general as "dangerous sports" at all and I don't think you should either - I hope once you have read through this website you will agree! For a start, the overall injury risk combining all the snow sports is about 0.2-0.4%. In simple terms, this means that for every 1000 people skiing or snowboarding in a day, on average between 2 and 4 will require medical attention. This is really very low and a tribute to the work of many people in the ski injury field including researchers, equipment manufacturers, ski instructors and staff at the ski areas themselves. If you're still not convinced, think of an average game of football (soccer) - usually 2 or 3 players end up with an injury at the end of the game (which only lasts 90 mins!) - i.e. 3/22 or 14% compared to 0.4% for snow sports. So if you think snow sports are dangerous then according to the statistics football must be positively suicidal!! |
Yes, beginners (less than five days of experience in the current season and at less than one week of experience in total) are one of the 3 main risk groups along with children and competitors but even then as I understand it injuries are not that common. Take a look at the abstracts and published articles by Dr Mike (you'll have to pay for the latter) on the US National Institutes of Health website and the British Journal of Sports Medicine website for further details.
Technique wise I concur with all the comments from rob@rar and others with regards snowplough but will leave it there.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 23-03-10 18:43; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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maggi, because you are redundant from an evolutionary standpoint and therefore nature hates you... 
I have heard a knee surgeon specialising in knee injuries say it is because of differences in leg alignment in women, and also that many tend less fit and to ski slower at speeds where bindings may give less protection,
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stoatsbrother,
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ski slower at speeds where bindings may give less protection,
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Great, I knew there was a good reason to live up to my name.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
bum,
If you teach someone to hockey stop, all you are doing is teaching them to stop. In teaching someone to snowplough, they learn to stop, turn, weight the skis, edge, etc - and get used to the feel of sliding on snow in a stable platform. It is not diffiicult to go from snowploughing into parallel turns either, and I've always seen at least the beginnings of parallel skiing from my guests after their first week. Going straight into a parallel hockey stop is beyond most beginner skiers anyway. |
But surely the start of the hockey stop involves controlling your speed, learning how to rotate your body, and learning where the centre of gravity on your skis are. If you pull out of the stop before you come to a complete standstill, and repeat this process rotating to the left, and to the right, then you're basically parallel skiing. I know it's not a particularly good way of skiing, but if you look at the majority of casual skiers on the slopes, that's what they're doing anyway - allowing the skis to slide sideways rather than carving.
Is going into a parallel hockey stop really more difficult than a snow plough for a beginner? Some people for example that ice skate, inline skate, or just generally like sliding around on a marble floor generally find hockey stops more natural, and I must admit that I did too. Plus it gave me a lot of confidence knowing that I could pull on the brake quickly if I needed to, something which snow ploughing didn't.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| bum wrote: |
Is going into a parallel hockey stop really more difficult than a snow plough for a beginner? |
Yes.
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| Quote: |
Is going into a parallel hockey stop really more difficult than a snow plough for a beginner?
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Yes. Don't underestimate how weird it is strapping on a pair of skis for the first time is, initially just sliding forwards can be challenging balance wise, and until you get used to the sliding feeling and get the balance sussed it would be very difficult to steer the skis parallel into a turn/slide with any control.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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roga, I agree that skiing injuries aren't 'common' in the true sense of the word, but taking into account the number of holiday-makers skiing each year, the 2 to 4 per 1000 skiers is a considerable number. Even if there is a way to reduce just a small percentage of those, that would be a constructive change.
Mike Langran's FAQ does state
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| Alpine skiing and skiboarding have the highest incidence of knee injuries, which account for 33% and 37% of all injuries respectively in these sports. Snowboarding is generally kinder on the knees, as long as you're not planning lots of wicked jumps with heavy impacts. The main reason for the difference is that on skis and skiboards, each leg is able to twist independent of the other and thus cause injury to the knee. |
which would indicate that legs twisting independently (eg falling in a snow plough) does lead to the highest incidence of knee injuries.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| bum wrote: |
which would indicate that legs twisting independently (eg falling in a snow plough) does lead to the highest incidence of knee injuries. |
It indicates that falling on skis might hurt your knees. Bit like falling on a snowboard might hurt your bum, or crashing your car might be bad in general. Most likely consequence doesn't relate it at all to snowplowing, it's just stating the obvious and framing it to fit your argument.
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You know it makes sense.
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Must say as a beginner who can do both then I wouldn't be without either... given I learnt a hockey stop in hour 4 of lessons I am not sure why you need to dump either at all! I use both techniques and choose according to the situation... why do without a useful tool which does help you feel secure when there is enough scary stuff to be dealing without limiting your options!!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| bum wrote: |
| But surely the start of the hockey stop involves controlling your speed, learning how to rotate your body. |
Can you explain why you think learning to rotate your body is important and when you would want to do that?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| bum wrote: |
| Is going into a parallel hockey stop really more difficult than a snow plough for a beginner? |
As others have said, yes it is. Further more it is likely to create bad habits which will make progress much harder.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Can you explain why you think learning to rotate your body is important and when you would want to do that? |
When you want to execute the hockey stop and come to a complete stop very quickly.
Erm... is that a trick question?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 23-03-10 20:45; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is it time to microwave the popcorn yet?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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anarchicsaltire, quite!
This thread is four pages of people all saying the same thing over and over and going nowhere. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| bum wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Can you explain why you think learning to rotate your body is important and when you would want to do that? |
When you want to execute the hockey stop and come to a complete stop very quickly.
Erm... is that a trick question? |
Nope, not a trick question. Do you think swinging your body is the best way to initiate a hockey stop, or even just a regular turn?
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| anarchicsaltire wrote: |
| Is it time to microwave the popcorn yet? |
Only if someone starts talking about blades.
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| anarchicsaltire wrote: |
| Is it time to microwave the popcorn yet? |
Top question!
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OK I realise the thread's getting boring now.
Thanks for the discussion guys and at least considering that there may be more than one way to skin a cat. I guess the generally accepted way is the easiest way for all beginners to do.
I'll go and munch on something now.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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bum, you may be telling something about the way you ski, in particular the way you initiate turns.
Some of the people with whom you are disagreeing (not me btw) are instructors well versed in the theory and biomechanics.
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A couple of points I'd chuck in at this juncture:
By turning conventions on their head, many other options relating to body rotation and braking come into play. For example, continuous 360s down the fall-line (uses full body rotation) provides a very high level of braking as a side-product. Body rotation (and skiing on the uphill ski or inside ski of the turn) opens up the whole world of trick/ballet skiing.
If the hockey stop is taught with body rotation then it can become a 180 switch-turn to ski backwards. And any instructor can fill you in on their stock technique of snowploughing backwards!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| George W. Bash wrote: |
| And any instructor can fill you in on their stock technique of snowploughing backwards! |
Indeed we could - but given the way any technical comment in this thread seems to have been totally ignored by the OP, I for one won't be bothering 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I am glad I was taught to snowplough, even now I still tend to fall back on it as an almost instinctive safety net when nothing else seems to work. It is esp. useful on narrow paths when I don't want to go too fast and there isn't room for a sort of controlled hockey stop every now and again or turns to slow me down; or when so many folk have gone down the path that it starts to resemble a 'u' profile rather than a flat path. I don't tend to use it to turn with any longer - these days if there is room to turn then there is room for a proper turn, but it does usefully work as a fail safe set of brakes in some situations. Or if following someone else on a narrow path that is doing it where there is no room to pass and you want to go at a similar speed. To answer the thread title I wouldn't be inclined to ban snow ploughing, I think I'd encourage people to learn to use it well and realise the situations and type of slope it can usefully be deployed on.
My apologies if this sounds too much like the voice of reason on such a contentious thread.
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| bum wrote: |
| Here's a fairly good article explaining some of the theories why- |
Thanks, that was really helpful.
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| maggi, because you are redundant from an evolutionary standpoint and therefore nature hates you... |
Thanks, that was really not 
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You know it makes sense.
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My personal opinion about middle-aged women beginners being more prone to ACL type injuries is thus; I think newbie women are less likely to demand a good fitting boot, they're more likely to have larger calves and end up in a larger boot than necessary so as not to "kick up a fuss" - after all, why/how are they going to master skiing? Once falling and twisting, the torque produced by the foot moving within the boot but not enough to pop it out of its bindings is I think a major contributor to the ACL-type injury.
Any thoughts or is i) my Physics totally duff and ii) I'm making sweeping generalisations about an entire sex/age-group?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| DaveC wrote: |
| It indicates that falling on skis might hurt your knees. Bit like falling on a snowboard might hurt your bum, or crashing your car might be bad in general. Most likely consequence doesn't relate it at all to snowplowing, it's just stating the obvious and framing it to fit your argument. |
Spot on, what is striking about this thread is the OPs ability to appear to be asking open minded questions and to be looking for information whilst in fact ignoring all the advice and comments given and claiming it's all tongue in cheek anyway.
So, having wound us all up and set us going she seems to have bolted right after making that intriguing comment about rotating the body - would be fascinated to see her ski after reading that ... hmmmm!
End of I think so I'll be off...
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Poster: A snowHead
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This thread is remarkably similar to what I heard from the local radio today.
The radio related that there had been more cases reported by parents suffering abuses from "their own children".
These parents apparently blamed the increase due to the Social Services Department not doing enough for them and the glowing unemployment had led to less money available for their children to do their own things (thereby focusing their anger on their parent). Some were beaten up or ended up with a black eye but one reported having a table thrown at her.
So it is another case of someone seeking blame for a failure totally under one's own control, at least initially to start with.
Would it be true for the majority of beginners who master the snow plough successfully to become competent skiers as many children manage to become a teacher, accountant, lawyer, technican or a law abiding member of the society while a small minority fails to learn the basic skill is equivalent to some children ending up being criminals (assuming the charge is pressed by the parents and the assult is proved in court and so the offender convicted)?
After all we are talk about educating someone with something very basic and simple.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Guys (and girls), I've not started this thread to troll. I realise some of you are really put off by my title, and can't see that I've actually chosen it just to try to keep the discussion light-hearted.
I know that many of you are instructors here, and I don't for one moment claim to know the ins and outs of teaching ski technique, and when I say things like 'rotate your body', I'm probably using completely the wrong technical jargon. All I'm saying is that for your skis to start off pointing down the slope and then finish up sideways on in a hockey stop, the skis, your feet, your legs etc (they're all part of your body) need to have rotated 90 degrees - that's why I asked rob@rar if it was a trick question.
I see many people with knee injuries in my line of work. Once you've done your ACL, MCL or medial meniscus in, even with a good repair, it's never the same again. And for beginners, once they sustain that injury, they'll likely never to go back to skiing again. So all I am asking is what, if anything, can be done to prevent beginners from these type of falls?
(this one was on a flat path, but you can imagine a similar one down a blue slope)
If the collective answer is simply 'not much - the snow plough is the best option for all beginners, and these type of falls are no worse that any other fall', then I'll just leave it at that. Thanks for listening.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Be physically fit before you start skiing. More strength makes it easier to keep control. To start skiing is pretty hard on the muscles... For LOADS of holiday skiers skiing is the only week of the year they get their bottoms off the couch.
Don't progress too fast too more demanding terain. Excersize makes perfect.
Avoid unknowingly accessing terain too difficult... Ask where to go, pistemaps are rubbish and slopes themselfes become easier/more difficult depending on conditions and even time of day!
As for the picture... bit hard to see what actually happened. I see quite a slide, which doesn't mean the speed was next to nill
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Is the person in red uphill or downhill of the skier?
If uphill, then the skier turned too late and too much by the looks of things. A timing and control issue.
If downhill, then it looks like the skier felt uncomfortable making the turn to the right. A confidence issue.
The end result could happen skiing plough or parallel though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In the pic it looks like the fallen skier has meandered off to the edge of the piste, hit the soft snow and gone down. The fact that her bindings didn't realise probably contributed to the injury. She should have turned before reaching the edge of the piste, regardless of whether her preferred method of turning is a snowplough or parallel. Am I close?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
| In the pic it looks like the fallen skier has meandered off to the edge of the piste, hit the soft snow and gone down. The fact that her bindings didn't realise probably contributed to the injury. She should have turned before reaching the edge of the piste, regardless of whether her preferred method of turning is a snowplough or parallel. Am I close? |
spot on. Method of turn irrelevant. Competence and fitness are the issues.
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| bum wrote: |
So all I am asking is what, if anything, can be done to prevent beginners from these type of falls?
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Teach people make better snowplough turns (not too wide, not strongly edged) and to fall sideways on to their hip, not backwards on to their bum. From the look of that photo that fall was voluntary (she chose to fall backwards when she felt she was out of control) rather than involuntary (happily skiing along then suddenly dumped on her arse because she caught an edge or such like). I can't think of a time when I've seen a skier fall involuntarily backwards while snowploughing - it is always a panicky decision they take when they feel they have lost control.
bum, a point you have failed to acknowledge is the opinion expressed by a number of people in this thread, some of whom have professional ski qualifications, who have argued that a direct to parallel via hockey stop type turn is not simply a different way of turning if you are a beginner. It is a considerably worse option. It is difficult for beginners to achieve. It is likely to lead to many more sideways falls (certainly more than you see backward falls when snowploughing). It is likely to impart bad habits which will be difficult to cure later on. It does not lend itself to a progression to more advanced technique.
I'm all for debating ski technique and how to teach it, but you seem unable/unwilling to contribute anything to that debate other than blind faith in a bad idea.
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Red skier is downhill. Mike Pow, you say that this fall could have happened skiing parallel, but surely the fact that she tried to hold the plough to stop meant that her legs ended up pointing in different directions, no?
I realise that being physically fit is an essential pre-requisite for skiing, but the reality is that thousands of holiday skiers aren't physically fit. It's not something you can change once they've already arrived the resort.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bum, a point you have failed to acknowledge is the opinion expressed by a number of people in this thread, some of whom have professional ski qualifications, who have argued that a direct to parallel via hockey stop type turn is not simply a different way of turning if you are a beginner. It is a considerably worse option. It is difficult for beginners to achieve. It is likely to lead to many more sideways falls (certainly more than you see backward falls when snowploughing). It is likely to impart bad habits which will be difficult to cure later on. It does not lend itself to a progression to more advanced technique. |
No, I am happy to acknowledge that conclusion, but it's always worth having had the discussion, rob@rar
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| spot on. Method of turn irrelevant. Competence and fitness are the issues. |
They may seem like the issues, but remember that Carl Ettlinger - back in 1986, in the earliest articles on this topic in Skiing Magazine (U.S.) - identified identical ACL injuries to beginners and racers (who are hardly incompetent or unfit). Both groups have falls where sitting back combines with the ski going on edge and wrenching the knee.
I don't think the method of turn is irrelevant. Rotating the feet in opposition (left foot clockwise, right foot anti-clockwise) in a snowplough puts more stress into the equation than a parallel turn.
It's the nature of the fall that is key to this so - as previously mentioned - we should be focusing on ski technique and progression which minimises falls and awkwardness of falls.
Maybe it would be good to get some knee surgeons involved in developing safer ways to teach and learn skiing.
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FAQ
) into this group (oh, God, how depressing is that 
) why is this? I thought it was just breaking brittle bones we had to worry about ....
