 Poster: A snowHead
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I wonder if anyone can help?
My wife and I, both in our early fifties and both still active in various sport, are just back from a weeks skiing in Ruaris, Austria. My wife skies every year with her girlfirends and is very capable. I am a complete beginner and came on the skiing holiday not primarily to have fun - like most sports I am aware that it takes a lot of "hard yards" before real enjoyment begins - but to find out if with the hard yards I could sometime in the future enjoy skiing.
We signed up for Ski School Maier and my wife was put in the top improvers group, and went from strength to strength. Natrually I started in the Beginners class and unfortunately the week went badly though the instructor had the patience of a saint! Beginners week is based on one technique which was continuously reinforced from day 1 to day 5 – "Snowplough". The problem was I struggled from the start with "Snowplough" - I could make the wedge shape but not put the skis on the inside edge, and found it worked only on the shallowest of slopes and with considerable strain in the groin area. I persevered to the afternoon of the last training day when we were moving onto steeper and steeper slopes, all with "Snowplough, Snowplough, Snowplough". It was then that I finally threw in the towel - I was at my absolute limit, couldn't snowplough stop on the steeper hills, and was a danger to myself and others. As I sat in the cafe watching my classmates I reflected that at least I had found the answer to my question if I could become with time a reasonable skier, and that answer was a resounding NO. A bit dissapointing, but not totally unexpected and something I could accept.
Of the other 12 in our Beginners group was a 20+ year old footballer who had struggled in exactly the same way as I had and had already given up. As we sat watching all sorts of people fly by, and our classmates doing their snowploughing, I wondered why should we not be able to do what others seemed to find relatively simple? What did we have in common that was different from the others?.
One possibility that came to me was that we are both 'bow legged' and wear out our shoe soles on the outside. To me this means that in our natural stance we have our weight on the outside of our feet. Does this not translate to our skis having in the standing position a default tilt with the inside edge up, and make snowploughing on the inside edges much more difficult? It seemed logical to me, and also explained our pains and strains in the groin area. However when asked neither instructor, head instructor, ski school founder, or boot hire people thought it relevant :- our problems were due to faulty technique. I am reluctant to go against such a weight of experience, but before giving up skiing before starting would appreciate comments or opinions just to make sure.
Thanks
PaddyM
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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dpaddym, welcome to snowheads!
Firstly, please don't give up! Skiing is a fantastic sport, though pyschologically you'll have ups and downs.
Your problems were due to faulty instruction I'd say!! 12 is a big number for a ski school class, particularly for beginners, and I doubt the instructor was able to give you the individual attention you'd need. Some people do struggle with snowplough, particularly men (something to do with the hip joint), and yes body mechanices does play a part of this. But a good instructor will be able to help you overcome it and work out exactly what's stopping your progress.
To be honest I would expect most of the group to be well past the snowplough stage by day 5 - as an instructor I would be encouraging my students to try to ski paralllel, and move away from the snowplough, not telling them to snowplough. Snowploughing on steeper slopes is hard!
Whereabouts in the UK are you based? There are some good indoor slopes and I'd encourage you to go and get some lessons with a good isntructor at one of these slopes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| dpaddym wrote: |
I wonder if anyone can help?
One possibility that came to me was that we are both 'bow legged' and wear out our shoe soles on the outside. To me this means that in our natural stance we have our weight on the outside of our feet. Does this not translate to our skis having in the standing position a default tilt with the inside edge up, and make snowploughing on the inside edges much more difficult? It seemed logical to me, and also explained our pains and strains in the groin area. However when asked neither instructor, head instructor, ski school founder, or boot hire people thought it relevant :- our problems were due to faulty technique. I am reluctant to go against such a weight of experience, but before giving up skiing before starting would appreciate comments or opinions just to make sure.
Thanks
PaddyM |
Welcome aboard Paddy
Sorry to hear your first experience was a bit of a disappointment.
In answer to the quote above - yes it can translate and frequently does but usually it raises its head when you start getting into parallel turns where edge control starts to get a bit more subtle.
There is only really one way to fix it and that's with the help of a good boot fitter which means owning your own boots.
This is really too expensive a commitment at the stage you are at especially after a bad first experience.
The snow plough is a horrible position to adopt for anyone who is male and if you are tall it gets worse. You are trying to use muscles that aren't much used and the position requires a degree of flexibility and in your 50's your flexibility will have reduced significantly.
Some lessons at an indoor slope are a very good idea.
I'd also suggest getting some advice on specific exercises to help to prepare.
Also, what length of skis were you on? Shorter skis will make life a lot easier on the hips.
Don't lose heart, the snowplough is a necessary evil which you will resort to throughout your skiing life regardless of how good you get, but it all gets a lot easier once you are over that intial hump.
The fact that you are willing to take on skiing in your 50's and that you've come here rather than give up already shows a good attitude and that's half the battle.
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Snow-ploughing is horrible. Skis, even beginners skis, aren't really designed to be snowploughed and neither are humans.
If you enjoyed the holiday despite the snowploughing I'd recommend getting some lessons back in the UK so you can put the snowplough behind you before your next hols.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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dpaddym, don't suppose you're able to get away again next week (20/27th) are you? There are still spaces on the Cautious to Confident week for people at exactly your stage in a group of max 4 people with loads of personal attention to sort out difficulties and lots of encouragement/fun. Snowploughing's just one technique - it's not the be-all-and-end-all. I'm a similar age to you & can assure you, if I can learn ANYONE can! See link below.
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snowploughing isn't fun, I couldn't do it when i had lessons in the uk. I then went to france and my uncle taught me to ski parellel turns. Learning to parallel before learning to snowplough involves a lot of falling over but has a much faster learning curve. When I then went into lessons a few days later I was in group with people who had all skied 1 or 2 weeks previously. In fact I never learnt to do snowplough turns till I trained to be a level 1 instructor. I still don't think snowploughs are a good learning tool.
In tignes I got a friend who had never skied before but was a good iceskater doing parallel turns on blue runs in half an hour. She then went to her proper lesson and like you said that she just couldn't snowplough. The only ski school I know of that teaches parallel turns from the outset is ski evolutif based in Les Arcs. They manage this by giving you much shorter skis to begin with and then progressing onto longer skis. I normally fall into the category of 'snowblade hater' but think that this seems like a really good way to teach beginners. Or you could just try hiring a pair of snowblades at one of the indoor or dryslopes around the country and see how they feel compared to real skis. With a weeks experience you will almost certainly be able to get down the slope in a controlled manner on short skis. But please if you do find you can ski with them don't stay with them once you've become competant and move onto fell length skis.
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Thanks for the replies and encouragement. It is much appreciated. To answer some of the questions.
We live in N Ireland, and I don't think there are any artificial slopes.
The skis were beginners ones, so quite short.
I did ask if there was a possibility to bypass snowplough and move to parallel, realising that this may not be perfect route but possibly the only option available to me, but was told no. I did however have a go on the last day following my wife down the nursery slope and was able to match her parallel turns fairly well without the **&^%! snowplough.
Since posting the original message I have down a bit of "Googling" on "bow legs and skiing" and came across the following.
"Your ski equipment, bowed legs, and boot cant.
One thing I've learned over the years I've skied is how important ski boot canting is if you're bow legged, like me! If you're bow legged it`s important to correct for the bow with "cant", before you even start to learn to ski. Canting adjustment is a method of adjusting your skis and boots so the ski is flat on the snow when you are in a comfortable skiing / standing position. For the skier with relaxed knees and legs close together, I am sure this adjustment is even more significant. The closer together your feet are, with bowed legs, the more your skis will tilt off the snow the wrong way! The inside edges of the ski will be up in the air and the outside edges will be digging into the snow! Like being on a railroad track, which of course makes it very difficult to turn. This is so true for the novice who is straining very hard in a wedge position to get those skis tilted so the outside edges of the ski aren't dragging in the snow."
I must say I can identify with everything this guy is saying.
Also the following on the profeet website http://www.profeet.co.uk/ski_3DSkiBootFit.asp
From the photo I am definitely in the "Knees Out" and then some category, and that does show the body weight bearing on the outside of the ski. The profeet people seem to be able to provide stance corrections, but the cost of same plus accompanying boots to simply discover if I can ski is a bit much! However I will give them a call and discuss.
I think I would like to try again, time and finances permitting (thanks for the offer), but would want to make sure I will not always be fighting against an underlying mechanical problem.
Thanks again
Patrick M
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| dpaddym wrote: |
I think I would like to try again .... but would want to make sure I will not always be fighting against an underlying mechanical problem.
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You seem to have a classic 'chicken and egg' problem. Buying your own boots and having then fitted by someone who knows their stuff would, almost certainly, correct any biomechanical issues you've got.
So you'd progress quicker through the hateful snowploughing phase.
So you'd have more fun quicker.
So you'd feel more inclined to bung some money at the new boots and fitting.
I don't know when most people buy their own boots - for me, it was after three holidays, I think - but in your position I'd be very tempted to make the investment early.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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dpaddym, keep trying skiing, even if snow plough is not for you - lots of good advice above
I do wonder what everyone's violent objection to snow plough is. If you see 5 and 6 years olds going top to bottom of the mountains without poles without falling, at a speed that most adults would dream of donw blues and reds, woudl suggest that in fact there is nothing wrong with the technique, albeit bio-mechanically it might not suit any individual. As a speed control down boulevards/roads i use it a lot.
I went to a physio 4 weeks ago to sprt out an achilles problem i have had for a year. he told me and showedme that i have (had) absolutely no lateral movement and very little forwards/backwards movement in my ankle joints ! This came as a HUGE surprise to me ( i for years have worked on the basis that ankle movement was key to a good ski technqiue and hence thought that i did). Well he proved me wrong with a very simple test (toes against a wall, touch the wall with your knee without taking heel off the floor. I couldn't do it, and apparently anyone shoudl be able to do thsi with your toes 10cm from the wall !!! ). Since then i have been doing a series of stretches and exercises which mobilise and stretch my ankle joints, and stretch and strengthen my achilles. Huge improvement in mobility as a result.
So my thought is that it might just be a lack of moibility in hip and ankle joinmts which might be significnatly improved with a bit of (directed) stretching. if you know ahny good physios, it might be worth telling them your problem and they might be able to help/suggest.
I'm now worried whether i will be able to ski in 2 weeks, time - after skiing for 10 years without any apparent ankle mobility it shoudl be fun to see whta i can't do now that i have it 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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loads of good advice above, especially to have lessons in a much smaller group with more individual attention. I have to agree that snowplough is an important technique, but it's not easy for older people (4 year olds are irrelevant here.....) and that it's harder for men with very inflexible joints. And you might have some special biomechanical needs too - you could get that assessed, and make a decision about those expensive new boots made just right for you - but you need to find exactly the right place to go, and get advice about a suitable centre in N Ireland.
another thing - were they all day ski classes? they often are in Austria and for an older beginner, that's probably too much. A two hour lesson in a day is plenty - preferably a private lesson so you're not stood around waiting for people, or getting anxious because they're waiting for you.
Yes - snowboarding might suit you a lot better. I learnt to snowboard considerably older than you are, though I've never got more than fairly useless at it as I only do it now and then, when conditions are perfect.
Butterfly's special week would be perfect for you, if you can afford another ski holiday so soon!
Don't give up.
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dpaddym, Another vote for snowboarding. Mrs cad and I started snowboarding in our early fifties. We have just had a super powder day out in Austria. Snowplough - what's that?
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Once again, thanks for the input.
Regarding flexibilty, I never have been loose jointed and even as a fit and highly active teenager could never touch my toes! I go to the gym at least twice a week so the 2 hours in the morning, 2 hours in the afternoon were not in themselves too much. I was most concerned about my knees giving problems, but they stood up fine.
I think having watched and spoken to so many bruised snowboarders I will leave that option out! No, it seems that the best bet is a call to Profeet and see what they suggest. It appears from their website that the consultation cost is £150 (plus flights to London). I will post their suggestion for your information.
Also thanks for the offer of the Cautious & Confident week but I can't make it, even had time & finance allowed, as we have a meeting with our daughter's future in-laws that week.
Regards to all,
PaddyM
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Poster: A snowHead
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dpaddym, you might think about going to see Colin at http://solutions4feet.co.uk/
But speak to him on the phone first about your problem (if he doesn't come on here).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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sev112, if that really is true about your ankles, how come you did so well in the Cornflake box game?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Snowploughing is physically quite a strain and pretty inefficient, especially on steeper slopes, but it is difficult to learn to parallel untill you have the feel for the skis sliding. Next time try only snowploughing during the turns, and keeping the skis parallel through the traverses - probably a couple of hours private lesson will help with this.
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| dpaddym wrote: |
| ...and even as a fit and highly active teenager could never touch my toes!... |
There's your problem in one!
If your instructor couldn't see that you were having problems with your flexibility and adapt his technique accordingly then I'd suggest it was very poor instruction.
The snowplough is obviously going to be of limited use to you so you just need to find an instructor that can help you move on instead of flogging a dead horse.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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dpaddym, Welcome to Snowheads. Firstly, you've had a lot of good advice already, but as you live in Northern Ireland, coming over to England, whether it's to see Colin or anyone else would add enormously to the cost of the boots, and thus is not really practical unless you happen to be over for other reasons.
It's a pity that you can't make the 'Cautious to Confident' week, but it is rather short notice.
I'm afraid to say that I think you've been failed by your instructor on holiday. It's true that being bandy does not necessarily stop you learning to snowplough, but it certainly does not help. You clearly need some experienced individual attention to help you get your skis onto their inside edges, which is important. With the right coaching you may not need to have all sorts of adjustments to boots.
Having said that I find it astonishing that your class was encouraged to snowplough (was it in a straight line?) and on increasingly steeper slopes! Snowplough as a method of stopping really only works on very gentle slopes at a very slow speed.
Ski evolutif is not the only answer though, and some people need to move to parallel skiing via traversing rather than ploughing, and with modern skis this is possible, but these sort of divergences fromt he 'standard method' require a more individual approach. I do this with my students on day 2 of their first week! It works much better than snowploughing everywhere.
Please don't give up, and please don't feel that you'll never overcome this problem, you can and you will, and your age is no barrier. 
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dpaddym,
Hello there,
Your problems with snowploughing are without a doubt caused by your bow-leggedness.
It's a pity your instructor didn't bother to notice or worse, didn't realise this while you were there, as there is a simple check that you can do
with a plastic card cut up and placed under your boot between the sole and binding.
Not a permanent fix but you can see an instant ability to, in you case snowplough.
Narrow waisted skis will also help. 66mm at centre or less.
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jimmjimm, I don't think any professional would advise anyone just messing about with their alignment in an ad hoc sort of way. This can cause ongoing problems. Some of the best skiers I know are bandy - it's possible to overcome it, but requires more originality on the part of the coach.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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dpaddym, Despair Not ... like Axsman, I started 'later' (50) and couldnt snowplough (standing up was a problem in itself!) ... I managed to move via private tuition to parallel-ish in a few days without ever mastering it . Im not sure its the best way as you(I) spend a lot more time out of control & on your back bottom but you will get there and my knees are really grateful. Stick at it ..
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DaddyLouLou,
it was my "bobbing" technique that did me so well 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski,
All the originality and coaching in the world, will not fix a biomechanical disadvantage such as misalignment as well as a properly canted boot.
Why waste money with coaching when the problem is physical. You would only be learning to contort your body to compensate.
Let the boot fitter correct it instantly.
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| Quote: |
Your problems with snowploughing are without a doubt caused by your bow-leggedness.
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Hmm. My OH is bandy - and very stiff (has never been able to touch his toes, for example, and has extremely limited hip rotation). He can snowplough, though. Like the rest of us he prefers not to, but when we both did cross country ski lessons he was far better than I at snowploughing on the wretched things (which is completely indispensable) even though I am not bandy, and am generally more flexible. It's too simplistic to say that somebody who is bandy will necessarily not be able to snowplough. My brother in law is very bandy. He skis on short skis and snowploughs (just a bit) all over the damn place; I'm forever trying to stop him!
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You know it makes sense.
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jimmjimm, After teaching skiing professionally for 35 years I've seen a number of people with all sorts of bandy legs. Most did learn to do both snowploughing and edging.
If someone is 50, to try to correct the alignment is not recommended by biomechanists or phyiologists. To suggest that someone who knows nothing about it experiments with wedges is just risking injury, and in case you didn't notice the OP lives in N. Ireland. The bott fitters well known on snowheads are all in england. Ergo to get his boots through CEM would not seem practical.
I'm afraid to say his instructor in Austria was clearly not motivated to sort out the problem which is a shame, but not terminal.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, if someone has problems getting their skis on to an edge in a snowplough does that translate into difficulty in edge control when they ski parallel? I once recommended a complete beginner give boarding a try because of his very obvious difficulties in getting his skis onto an inside edge because of bandy legs. I said that it wasn't impossible for him to learn to ski, but boarding might be a slightly better option for him (he wasn't fussed about the choice of skiing or boarding so I thought the boarding might allow him to make quicker progress than he was going to make with his skiing).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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What's happened to the use of snowplough to improve balance over the feet with a view to developing and rotational skills and skidded turns as opposed to locking in the edges?
In days gone by, Austria included, we became fixated with jamming edges into the snow in ever widening snowploughs with posture ending up over the tails. Result, no control over descent and a great difficulty in making turns. Balance out; edges partly engaged (on the tails only) and rotational turns all but impossible resulting in crazy racing ploughs down whatever fall line got in the way. (Did I say fall line? slap my wrists - I'm not that old - honest!)
Sounds like your instructor was keen to get moving around the mountain without firstly and sufficiently developing pupil skills on easier slopes. But then... I wasn't there.
Early learning of rotational skils is important, especially with the new shape skis, which I feel is sadly seen as unimportant by some old stick in the mud instructors and newbies alike. It is promoted by trainers in Austria with Staatlichers often promoting balance and controlled skidding of turns over excessive edging during instructor training sessions.
Edges can equate to speed/acceleration. Rotation of the ski on the snow can equate to skidding and control.
In the past, I often spent more time getting beginners off excessive edges to allow them to feel their skis slide. And when the skis are sliding freely, they can be turned, so long as the person has a balanced posture over their feet.
A basic progression I used.
Balance needs to be built over the feet. Where possible straight line sliding.
Then skis placed in the plough.
When the plough is controlled and balanced in a straight line, learn turning through rotation of feet (minimal edge bite which can be developed gradually later)
When confidence and speed builds - begin developing pressure control while remaining balanced over the feet and still using rotation of the feet to turn. The skis change direction and so will you.
Turn across and up the hill to control speed to stop.
All the above done on an easy slope with minimal use of edges. Students often find skis wanting to run parallel during the latter stages above.
The above can then be tried on slightly more challenging slopes - teaching a little more edging if necessary - most folk will develop this naturally (to a point.)
But if posture and balance over the feet is not promoted and developed; and the digging in of the edges to control speed in the plough left unabated - development can become blocked with frustration ensuing.
BASI & IASI promote rotational skills early in initial development followed by pressure control and finally edge control trying to blend everything together through the progression. It works.
The Austrians I once worked with, also promoted the same.
Bandy legs?
I own a pair.
Insoles, fitted boots - all help, but I have to agree with other comments. Skills have to be learned. The fine tuning of equipment, in most cases, can be left until some basic skills have been developed.
dpaddym, your instructor may not have been right for your. Please persevere with skiing, if you ever feel as though you are being left behind - don't stand for it - pester the instructor/ski school.
As for slopes in Northern Ireland... there used to be one at Craigavon. Artificial it may be, but you may find the answer there.
Edges can get in the way when trying to learn to ski using the snowplough technique - as can unsuitable gradients.
Relying purely on edges (while in a snowplough) to stop and control speed can get in the way - as one becomes fixated in jamming the edges in as hard as possble using muscles that didn't ought to exist (or you wished didn't exist the following morning.)
Learning to ski without the snow plough?
It is possible as discussed in earlier posts. The Americans used to promote direct to parallel methods in some of their ski schools.
Closer to home, a few hours in a group lesson, better still one to one, may help in removing any blocks to your skiing development. Consider trying the tuition at the dry slope (if it still exists and isn't too far) Many a good and expert skier has over come development blocks on plastic.
Hope this helps and I haven't gone too over the top.
Oh, and welcome to snowheads
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Snowshark, great post, very well explained.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yep, fully agree - Snowshark, great post!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Snowshark wrote: |
Learning to ski without the snow plough?
It is possible as discussed in earlier posts. The Americans used to promote direct to parallel methods in some of their ski schools. |
Still do. 
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eg Martin Heckelman's International Parallel Technique?
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Snowshark
Thanks for your comments and advice. You did loose me a bit on the more technical bits though I do have an engineering background and sadly am interested in the forces and moments involved!
To clarify a few points, the instructor (from Ski School Maier) was handling a beginners group of 12 with ages ranging from 20 to 60. His attitude and patience to our floundering attempts was exemplary. Not once did I detect a single look or note of frustration – quite remarkable. Indeed I informed the head coach of this at the end of the week. I believe the Ski School teach in a very structured and systematic way, always emphasizing the basics of posture, weight forward, balance etc. and building on one step at a time. For a large group of varying ability this did however mean going at the pace of the slowest learner. The coaches all seemed to be following exactly the same 'script'. I suspect that this approach has been tried and tested, and while it may work extremely well for the majority, as is often the case a 'one-size-fits-all' approach has its limitations as a couple of us found out.
My current view for what it is worth is that balance on the skis is akin to a golf grip – get that wrong at the start and you are building on a shaky foundation. As has been suggested earlier I have a call in to Colin at Solutions4Feet to discuss the stance issues further. He is off for a week so I won't get his advice until then.
I had thought our 2 artificial ski slopes had closed, but will certainly check them out after speaking to Colin.
Thanks Again,
dpaddym
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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dpaddym, I think most instructors on here would say that following a script is not a good way to teach - everyone's different and one approach can't possibly work for all.
Good to hear your instructor was patient though.
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FAQ
How the heck do you enjoy them!
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