 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi Folks,
Was out for a sneaky weekend in St Anton the other week and my ski buddy managed to lose his ski in a gully off piste. We probed and dug for a couple of hours but to no avail. I am back out there next week for the week.
I was wondering is there any good device that would be able to detect a buried ski? Maybe a very compact metal detector or something?? Anyone ever come across a good device for same?
p.s. While searching I was wondering why they don't have recco reflectors on the equipment so it can be retrieved when buried (and maybe recco 'equipment' reflectors if they were worried about being confused with burried bodies- anyway -just a thought!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Powder traces?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Spring, 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Powder traces? |
It may be too late for that  .
But take some with you so you have a better chance if you find it then lose it again...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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tiffin, I've wondered how they divi up the 'finds' there must be rich pickings under chairlifts etc
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have tried to find out the range for RFIDs under snow. They are usually used for very small distances - but there are others that can work further (eg electronic tags for Tolls). I did wonder if you could put active/semi-passive RFIDs on your skis, and then have a reader/detector unit built into one's avvy transceiver. I suspect it depends on how much snow attenuates the signal. Probably a dumb idea otherwise someone would have done it...
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| Quote: |
While searching I was wondering why they don't have recco reflectors on the equipment so it can be retrieved when buried (and maybe recco 'equipment' reflectors if they were worried about being confused with burried bodies- anyway -just a thought!
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Beacuase the equipment used to find the recco reflectors is very expensive, so it's only the resort's ski patrol who normally has access to it - this is why recco is only useful for recovering dead bodies form avalanches.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| I have tried to find out the range for RFIDs under snow. |
With a small powered RFID device that could be loctited to your ski or binding you get about 10 meters range under 2 meters of avalanche debris type snow. Hope that helps.
Metal detectors won't give you enough range, there is not enough metal in a modern ski / binding in general to give more than about 15cm of range.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Are there RFID readers that could determine direction? cos a 10 meter range of 2 meter snow is 600 odd cubic meters of snow 
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horgand,
Less powder ribbons as mentioned already you are into the realms of metal detectors i guess.
A hand held detector will have a max depth/ sensitivity field of around 30cm (though this is variable at best)
http://www.henrys.co.uk/cctv/handheldbodyscanner.htm
Failing that its off to a shop for a "proper" metal detector, given you state your mate lost it in a gully - the likleyhood is it may have moved further down the gully or may now be under several feet of snow which is beyond the field of most detectors - Though thinking about it i cant see snow disrupting the field as much as earth does? - so you might be lucky... Id just write them off and get your mate to chase the insurance up (if covered)
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You know it makes sense.
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Loc8tor
Cheap and better range than any Avy beacon. In fact cant see why My S1 costs so much when its inferor to loc8tor
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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If I could hijack the thread for a moment, do many of the off-piste regulars here use powder traces? I can't say I've ever noticed anyone putting on skis with them attached.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Swiss Toby, Just an obsevation, but I saw a chap tucking them in his trousers before getting on a lift in Les Arc's in Jan. The first time I've ever observed them 'on' anyone. Thanks to SH I knew what they were
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Swiss Toby, I've never once seen anyone use them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Swiss Toby, I use them - what counts as "regular"? I guess I do, as I go off piste on every trip.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| tiffin wrote: |
| Are there RFID readers that could determine direction? cos a 10 meter range of 2 meter snow is 600 odd cubic meters of snow |
RFID signals are in the 2GHZ range. The signal is very directional, much better than the 457Khz used in avalanche beacons. Bruce Edgerley, the president of BCA, has considered including them into beacons.
However the resonant frequency of water is around 1GHZ so a lot of the signal gets absorbed when under snow so there is a trade off between transmit power and size.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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After losing a ski i started to use some home made powder traces, haven't actually needed them again but i did forget they were attached when going to lunch and had them all unravel behind me.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I have often wondered whether RFIDs' could be deployed to help in the war on ski theft. They could be built into the fabric of the skis, and readers installed at ski lift gates that could detect them (like the ski pass readers). If an owner reported the ski missing the RFID could flag the ski the next time it was used. I know it would involve a wholesale adoption of new readers at ground and shoulder level, but it has been done for lift passes and could be used as PR for a large ski area.
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| Quote: |
Beacuase the equipment used to find the recco reflectors is very expensive, so it's only the resort's ski patrol who normally has access to it - this is why recco is only useful for recovering dead bodies form avalanches.
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The equipment used was previously large but the ski patrol now use a hand held device that is supplied by Recco that searches for both transceiver signals and recco at the same time. If ski patrol can get to the area of the buried victim quickly with this device then recco can be quite effective in finding live bodies too! Ski patrol would prefer you to have recco than nothing at all.
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Swiss Toby, I used to use traces, about 20 years ago. Great idea, but found it a bit of a faff and stopped using them ... If I found myself spending more than about 5 minutes looking for a ski, I think I'd start using them again.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I've skied with quite a few people using them, although most of them have been in the 'all the gear no idea' category. One guy was skiing big K2 Apache things, took about 15 minutes to get his powder tracers on while we waited patiently. We then skied a nice shallow section of trees, he got the the bottom and declared that he was skied out for the day. 
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I guess the other obvious question is how often do people lose their skis in powder for more than a few minutes? Damned unlucky if it happens to you (or your buddy) but is it a significant risk of powder skiing or really a one in a million bit of bad luck?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Over the last few years I have skied about four weeks off piste each season either with the SCGB or Snoworks, meaning that I have been in the same parties as about eighty different people in a season. I seem to recall one person only using powder straps in about four years, so even allowing for the fact that I have met some of the same people on different trips over that period, in my experience that would still mean that only one person out of two hundred or more was using powder straps.
On the ski club trips all were at least reasonably experienced or what you might you describe as regular off piste skiers, as were the vast majority on the Snoworks trips.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have powder traces in my ski jacket pocket and it is about 30 seconds effort to put them on.
I always use them if off piste and it is deep.
With them a lost ski is found in seconds (never had to do more than look about me...oh there it is...pull on trace...voila ski).
I've often had to wait several minutes for friends to find a ski, they've never had to wait for me.
100% love them.
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Although there isn't quite the need on piste, when you look at people taking on-piste tumbles and littering gear for 50-100 yards in the process on a steep piste you can imagine they would pleased to have a mechanism to pull a lost ski towards them. The only draw back would be the potential to trip other skiers up on the traces once deployed  . Since having seen the drawbacks of deeper snow I can see what the attraction might be on deep powder to be able to do this though and its always seemed such a simple solution. I'm surprised they are not in more common use.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, if I've fallen hard and fast enough for my skis to come off, I'd rather they stayed away form me rather than being pulled after - at some point they're gonna hit you hard.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| Quote: |
While searching I was wondering why they don't have recco reflectors on the equipment so it can be retrieved when buried (and maybe recco 'equipment' reflectors if they were worried about being confused with burried bodies- anyway -just a thought!
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Beacuase the equipment used to find the recco reflectors is very expensive, so it's only the resort's ski patrol who normally has access to it - this is why recco is only useful for recovering dead bodies form avalanches. |
Recco; have a Winter rather than a Summer burial.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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clarky999, I've always assumed that's what the brakes were for.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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But brakes take time for the friction to work, and unless you've got 20 metres of lines behind you, you will keep pulling the skis, especially on steep slopes.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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clarky999, OK, noted - it wasn't a serious suggestion as tapes all over a busy piste wouldn't be a good idea, but it does always looks difficult to retrieve gear when it scattered down the height of a steeper piste.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
I have often wondered whether RFIDs' could be deployed to help in the war on ski theft.
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What war? I've never known anyone have their skis nicked.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Sadly it does seem to happen more often these days, although not as much as some would suggest. I've had skis stolen though (whilst locked) and at least two of my mates have had their skis stolen too.
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Steve Sparks, clarky999, is right - there are several stories every season on here of skis going AWOL, in fact I am sometimes surprised at the number of reports made.
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Megamum, Several reports on one UK website does not make cause for a war. Some sense of proportion please.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davidof, RFID comes in many guises, with different standards around the world (really? I can't believe that...). E.g. the short range ones powered by the transmitter rather than the tag itself can be 125Khz ( OK, 120 - 128) or 135Khz - the latter being made by TI, and hence more popular in the US, albeit also conform to the German DIN standard. However, they do need to have a directional match with the reader - ie you have to line them up correctly to get a good signal. The UK favour the 125s, without that restriction, and there are multi millions of them out there - Bins, cattle, etc. Read range, like supermarket bar code readers, up to ~ 10 cm. There is also another low distance standard , which I can't remember the tech specs on, but which the salesman has left a bag of 500 on my desk for trialling their robustness. These are for use with the new generation of mobile phones with integrated readers, which is going to be "the next big thing".
There are also UHF ones now available, which while still passive, have a much greater range, 10 - 15 m, unless you deliberately de-tune the receptors to aid in identification of closely packed objects. I'm looking at those for a specific application.
However direction indication, as you rightly point out, is not part of the deal. Although I'm sure you could interpret that if you included a sonar type echo-sounding capability in the powered unit. But given it is not its primary use, it may be difficult to justify the extra gizmo expense in the unit.
Sorry, thread drift. Powder traces won;t help retrieve you original ski, but will stop it happening again.
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