 Poster: A snowHead
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Hello,
Just a question out of interest really as to how one would go about becoming a qualified ski guide who could take people off piste. Does it vary between countries? more specifically how does it work in france? is it even possible for a brit to be a guide in europe?
thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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david duval, given the number of Brits guiding in Europe, yesm it's possible.
As I understand it the hardest is to do the qualification in France, with ENSA. A friend did his in Germany. Check out UIAGM.
Canada is, I think a little more flexible as you can modularise it - i.e. you can train and qualify as a ski guide without needing to be much of a mountaineer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In Austria, you can complete the ski instructing levels (to become Staatliche) then go on to be a ski guide (Bergfuhrer). I don't really know how that compares with other 'Mountain Guide' qualifications (which usually seem to involve rock and ice climbing), but in Austria at least lets you ski guide anywhere you want (multiday high alpine tours, for instance, inc the more normal offpiste guiding).
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to be clear, there isn't really a such thing as an internationally recognised "ski" guide
certain countries have their own such qualifications (like Canada) but these are not internationally recognised
as others have said, you would need to look at the UIAGM/IFGAM "mountain" guide qualification if you want to be able to lead people everywhere in the mountains; ski instructors can take people a lot of places but nowhere with a mountaineering element to it
i am not sure about mountain leaders - again it's a more general qualification, not restricted to skiing (in fact I am not sure it covers skiing at all, although some of the safety elements would obviously be relevant)
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To be honest for the BMG training the skiing component is the easiest part. I've been climbing/mountaineering for ages and would am nowhere near the pre-requisite stage and can't imagine getting there without a significant and unforeseen improvement. OTOH the skiing part (partially due to experience obtained from mountaineering) seems achievable with some work, well it would if I could ski 
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Swirly, yeah - i reckon i ski as well as plenty of british guides and I am not a great skier; but those same guides are hardcore mountaineers
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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david duval, do you mean guide or ski instructor?
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Swirly, I have been with ski instructors - eg Christian at Wengen, or Phillipe at Val Thorens, or easiski at Les Deux Alpes who stated they were qualified to lead off-piste, though not on glaciated terrain.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| david duval, do you mean guide or ski instructor? |
Would BASI 4 and the equivalent top instructor qualies in other countries let you lead multiday high alpine ski tours etc? I know in Austria you have to be Bergfuhrer rather than Staatliche to do it, can't remember what/if there are any other restrictions on the terrain a staatliche can take people on..?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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achilles, that's true although the OP asked for guide. It also mentioned France so to instruct he would need ISTD, it's probably still easier than a guides ticket but requires a different skill set (albeit with some overlap) and won't be much easier.
Also not being able to take people on glaciated stuff, while still leaving plenty of fantastic skiing, loses the ability to explore some of the most fun stuff.
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clarky999, BASI 4 (ISTD) does not qualify you to take clients on to glaciated terrain. Another other than that is OK.
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You know it makes sense.
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Swirly wrote:,
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well it would if I could ski |
You have a pair of properly fitted boots dont you? Thats the hardest part
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Im currently doing the mountain safety course for my ISIA and we have been told it qualifies us to take groups off piste in most countries (excluding switz, france and probably a couple of others). We are only allowed to ski in the designated area though. That means no glaciers and no hiking to get into areas.
The EMS course allows you to do elements of touring (hiking up small ridge lines i believe...) and also to take groups on glaciers. However it doesnt allow you to use ropes and do long tours in extreme off piste areas, to do that you need to be a guide.
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Poster: A snowHead
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SCGB reps course? 
Seriously, it depends what you are after. If it's to take people off-piste as part of a lesson, then ISTD allows that, although not on terrain where rope work would be expected - so lowering into couloirs and glaciated terrain are no-nos, but use of a rope as optional additional protection is allowed. (ISIA may also allows such but at a lower level of commitment?). We were actually discussing this last week, and whether overnight stays are allowed as part of that non-glaciated expedition is a grey area. Touring is allowed. I thought I'd also heard a couple of years ago of a new add-on module that ISTDs (through the Eurogroup) could take that would allow them to go onto glaciated terrain, but maybe I misheard or nothing came of that - there may be a bit of a fight going on between UIAGM and Eurogroup/ISIA there. Still, lots of courses and you need to be a superb skier to get to that level.
Otherwise, for proper professional guiding it's the UIAGM and serious mountaineering stuff the others have been talking about. Someone also told me (not sure how accurate this is) that you also had to be Nationale (i.e. ISTD) level skier to even start the French guide's training. Wouldn't be surprised at that though, as every French guide I've had has also been a superb skier.
But back to my opening shot, if you just want to lead people around the gentler off-piste bits of areas you know well, on a voluntary basis, as part of a decent social scene, then SCGB reps can do that. 2 week course, then a bit of working your time and you're set. You will spend quite a bit of time with regular family piste skiers as well, but if that's what you're after, give them a shout.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| but use of a rope as optional additional protection is allowed. (ISIA may also allows such but at a lower level of commitment?) |
I don't think ISIA instructors would be operating within their licence if they planned an off-piste route which required ropework.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| If it's to take people off-piste as part of a lesson, then ISTD allows that, |
As does ISIA, providing the national/regional regulations allow that.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| GrahamN wrote: |
| but use of a rope as optional additional protection is allowed. (ISIA may also allows such but at a lower level of commitment?) |
I don't think ISIA instructors would be operating within their licence if they planned an off-piste route which required ropework. |
agreed...which is why I put in "optional additional" - it's not planned, but if the client wanted some added security, then it would be OK - AIUI. I've been in at least one situation where this was offered (and I declined, unwisely in the event, and I ended up slipping off a traverse across a 50 degree slope).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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forget about UIAGM unless you can climb French 6B+ in B3 boot
david duval perhaps you should stick to golf?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| skidog wrote: |
| The EMS course allows you to do elements of touring (hiking up small ridge lines i believe...) and also to take groups on glaciers. |
You are not permitted to take groups on glaciers with ISIA or ISTD qualification.
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thanks guys for the really useful information, very interesting. Just to clarify it would just be to take people off piste and not the climbing/ropes etc, and also not on glaciated terrain. also it would more be for the guiding rather than instructing, but if an instructing qualification was appropriate maybe thats the best option
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Do you want to be paid or not?
There was a whole thread about this a couple of months back if someone can dig it out?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The Canadian route to ski guide
http://www.acmg.ca/03public/courses/skiguide.asp#1_1
In my experience as a ski instructor in the US, Canada and Japan, it is permissable to instruct and/or lead students/clients on all types of non-glaciated terain within the resort area boundary.
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To clarify what others have said here. In the main alpine areas in Europe only UIAGM/IFMG (same thing just different languages) guides & aspirant guides are allowed to take paying clients on ANY glaciated terrain. Anyone that tells you otherwise is mistaken*.
In Europe this means basically anyone that's called a guide or bergfuhrer or variations on that name. In nth america the guides scheme is broken down into 3 seperate elements which are rock, mountaineering & ski guide. For a nth american guide to be UIAGM certified they need all 3 of these inidividual qualifications.
As has been discussed by others certain higher level ski instruction qualifications allow instructors to take their clients off piste but not on glaciated terrain.
*Caveat - if Offpisteskiing comes along & tells me i'm mistaken i'll recant that statement otherwise i'm sticking to it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yes that is the one. Thanks. Lots of good info from you and Arno in that one.
Just a quick note. The aspirant guide status has disappeared in France and I believe they are now called trainee guides, the decree was published on the 28th of Jan 2010 by the Minister of Sports. They are much more restricted on what they can do for cash and a basic trainee guide has (AFAIKS) a lower level than an IML. In addition there may be no trainee guides allowed to pass the entrance exams in 2010 for logistical reasons - it would mean the ENSA running two syllabuses at the same time. This is obviously only relevant to the French system - but they did have 13 deaths of guides last year which was pretty high. SZK has also spoken about this last spring.
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| Quote: |
To clarify what others have said here. In the main alpine areas in Europe only UIAGM/IFMG (same thing just different languages) guides & aspirant guides are allowed to take paying clients on ANY glaciated terrain. Anyone that tells you otherwise is mistaken
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Do you know if that's the case with the Austrian Bergfuhrer? I'm not too sure exactly what they can do, but it's a level above ISTD instructors, aimed purely at guiding.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
To clarify what others have said here. In the main alpine areas in Europe only UIAGM/IFMG (same thing just different languages) guides & aspirant guides are allowed to take paying clients on ANY glaciated terrain. Anyone that tells you otherwise is mistaken
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Do you know if that's the case with the Austrian Bergfuhrer? I'm not too sure exactly what they can do, but it's a level above ISTD instructors, aimed purely at guiding. As far as I'm aware it just relates to skiing, no rock/ice climbing etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yup - In very simple terms...
UIAGM mountain guide - is the only qualification for ski guiding on glaciated terrain
ISTD ski instructor - can teach skiing off piste outwith the ski resort boundary.
(but not on glaicer or where ice axe / ropes is planned)
ISIA ski instrustor - can teach off piste, but only on marked itinerary runs within the ski resort boundary.
This document here explains in more detail.
http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/EMS_TRAINING_Pre_Course_Info_Sept_07.pdf
Only caveat is that an ISTD could add something like a winter mountain leader (WML) qualification if they wanted to use ice axe / crampons with clients (but not on glaciers)
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Only caveat is that an ISTD could add something like a winter mountain leader (WML) qualification if they wanted to use ice axe / crampons with clients (but not on glaciers)
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Don't think they can actually, as WML is not valid outside the UK.
The only useful add-on (as far as I'm aware) is an IML (International Mountain Leader). This allows ISTDs to lead multi-day hut-to-hut ski tours (with the usual glacier restrictions).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^ yup. your correct.
WML is only valid in Scotland / UK.
For Europe I think the IML (international ML) would be required.
http://www.mltuk.org/docs/registration-iml.html
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 11-03-10 10:35; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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IML doesn't cover crampons at all and ice-axe only really for emergency/unexpected use (e.g. crossing a steep snow patch in a gully on a summer walking trail). (I'm an IML!).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| The only useful add-on (as far as I'm aware) is an IML (International Mountain Leader). This allows ISTDs to lead multi-day hut-to-hut ski tours (with the usual glacier restrictions). |
I would be very surprised if it would in France.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
In my experience as a ski instructor in the US, Canada and Japan, it is permissable to instruct and/or lead students/clients on all types of non-glaciated terain within the resort area boundary. |
But within the boundary is avalanche patrolled so the main reason for having a guide (that he takes the responsibility for assessing avalanche danger) disappears.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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clarky999, I'm not sure. I know that it's only relevant to Austria. I think they can guide anywhere in Austria but I'm not certain that this is correct.
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| Swirly wrote: |
| clarky999, I'm not sure. I know that it's only relevant to Austria. I think they can guide anywhere in Austria but I'm not certain that this is correct. |
Did you google for it? For me a Bergfuhrer is a mountain guide and can work for money anywhere the UIAGM qualifications are recognized... and beyond.
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davidof, no it was a hazy recollection from past discussions. It's quite possible I've got the names wrong although I'm sure there is an alternate Austrian qualification that is below being a full UIAGM guide that lets you take people skiing anywhere in Austria.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Taken form the Tirolerskilehrerverband's website and translated:
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The job role of a ski guide covers the skiing outside marked ski runs and ski tours in glaciated terrain, with no more than a hut overnight.
The requirements of a candidate refer to independent driving of skiing, secure Gratklettern to 3 UIAA degrees, and master the current rescue techniques in practice. To the expectations of a ski guide includes the safe operation of Skischulgästen outside marked pistes, collaboration in the avalanche commissions, creating snow profiles and expert advice from colleagues, guests, etc. |
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Here come addition to the above training content, keeping in glaciated terrain, driving in the rocky terrain up to the III. Grade UIAA rope and all security and rescue techniques to do so.
The Skiführerkurs is conducted in cooperation with the Austrian Mountain Guides Association and organized by the BAFL.
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So a bergfuhrer (Note you have to be Staatliche (ISTD) and pass an assesment to start the course) can take groups on glacial terrain (possibly just in Austria?), with upto one night out. Does anyone know what 'Grade 3 UIAA rope' stuff is?
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| Quote: |
Does anyone know what 'Grade 3 UIAA rope' stuff is?
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Rock climbing to VDiff standard. Fairly easy in general terms, however, a different proposition in ski boots on iced up rock at altitude.
Is that for skifuhrer rather than bergfuhrer? This could be where I'm getting confused and would then work with what davidof says about bergfuhrer=UIAGM guide.
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