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Advice needed from advanced-to-expert piste carvers

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Dear Snowheads

I really HATE hire skis; I spit upon them. The edges never seem capable of carving over icy patches and I'm sick and tired of sliding down the piste on my inside hip when the skis lose grip. I fell five times in La Plagne last week, more than I've ever fallen in a single week. I was on hired Dynastar Contact Groove Ti 160 cm skis (118-66-102, R11).

I'm quite a light weight for my height so not particularly strong. When I roll skis onto their edges and push hard on the outside ski I don't seem to be able to push hard enough to bend the ski into a tighter arc. I'm getting very little feeling of rebound and acceleration out of the turn.

Please help me find a suitable ski. I'm looking for a lively, reactive piste carving ski suitable for a lightweight like me, that will grip *properly* over icy patches. I'd love to know the opinions of advanced-to-expert piste carvers who have a similar height to weight ratio as me. Without wishing to cause offense to anyone, if you skid/slide your turns rather than carve then I really don't need to know your opinion.

Me: 39 year old bloke
Height: 178 cm / 5' 10"
Weight: 66 kg / 145 lbs / 10 stone 5 lbs
Experience: 17 weeks in total, started skiing aged 10 in 1981, good intermediate to advanced.
Skiing style: I mainly like to make short & long carved turns with plenty of pressure on the outside ski. When I get tired I slide my turns for a while instead. No touring or freestyle.
Terrain: French & Swiss Alps only. 90% on piste, including moguls, 10% off-piste usually in no more than boot-deep snow.

Before anyone tells me I should eat more pies, I'm one of those people who can eat virtually all they want without gaining weight. Even with weight training and protein supplements I struggle to gain muscle.

Thank you very much for any helpful suggestions you can give me.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Head supershape - I forget if it's the speed or the magnum that's the stiffer one, probs worth trying both though.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Walter-Spitty,I agree, hired skis can sometimes be a problem. They are not necessarily well prepared before you get them. I have had cr@p hire skis in the past and took them back to the hire shop.
However, as you are skiing 160's I can recommend Rossignol Radical 9S Oversize in a 160, I have used them in a 160 and they were excellent, if a little rt for me. I now have Rossignol RX9, 170's. Also had success with K2 Apache and Elan Magfires (various models).
Why not get yourself to Xscape Milton Keynes , you can 'test' skis from Ellis Brigham.
Good luck.


Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 26-02-10 9:12; edited 2 times in total
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hmmmm, falling onto inside hip? perhaps a lesson wink
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Volkl Tigershark.
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I agree hire skis are often rubbish. Whether it's because they've seen better days, not been prepared very well or are just lower standard models, I was quite disappointed to have paid in the region of £80 last season for 6 days' premium ski hire to have rubbish skis that gave me very little confidence.

You sound more than ready to have your own skis. Financially it doesn't make that much sense if you're a one week per year skier like me, but I considered it worthwhile just to have better quality skis that inspire confidence. And airline ski carriage is only £30 (although some budget airlines charge more).

I can't offer any specific suggestions as I'm a girlie who likes ladies skis, but I have very much enjoyed testing skis at indoor slopes and drawing up a shortlist from there.
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Walter-Spitty wrote:
Before anyone tells me I should eat more pies, I'm one of those people who can eat virtually all they want without gaining weight.
You complete barsteward...I don't think I've seen the south side of 11st since I was 18 Sad . Despite being a fair bit heavier than you, you may do worse than looking at Stockli skis - Spirit or Laser SL. Superb edge grip and pretty lively - although I'm not sure how they'll react to your bending problem. Easy to find in Switzerland, less so in France.

And gilo may have a bit of a point as well Wink .
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clarky999 wrote:
Head supershape - I forget if it's the speed or the magnum that's the stiffer one, probs worth trying both though.

Speed is the stiffer model, with an 18m radius. Magnum less stiff with a 13.5m radius. I've not tried the Speeds but I have a pair of the Magnums and think they're a good piste-focused ski. Stiff enough to support a carved turn at high speed and with enough of a lively feel to be enjoyable. They're not in the same league as an out and out race ski for that kind of performance on piste, but they'd be a good bet for your mix of skiing including time in the bumps.
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Walter-Spitty, Ummm, I hate to break up a perfectly good party, but...

[Caveat: I haven't seen you ski and I'm not an instructor. I've just done really quite a lot of skiing]

1. height-weight means nothing - your skis don't know how tall you are. I'm 62kgs typically. So we can probably discount weight as an issue.

2. while some hire skis are, indeed, crap, not all are. Many are surprisingly well prepared in fact. So I'm going to suggest it might not be the skis.

Especially as you describe "falling onto inside hip". That suggests your balance is wrong (and before we delve into the arcanities of having your boots being aligned and balanced) - that's possibly because your stance is wrong. If you really do suddenly lose grip, you ought to be well enough centred for given conditions that you can just slide with it.

It also sounds much as though you aren't angulating sufficiently when on hard pack/icy conditions. So your edges aren't getting over to a hard enough angle to bite into the snow. A good exercise if this is the problem is to keep the tip of your outside ski on the snow throughout your turn which should force your upper body to angulate more.

Mind you, I could be entirely wrong. If I am, Rossi 9S oversize, Nordica Spitfire might be fun or Stoeckli Laser SC (not the full on race ski which I think would overwhelm you).

But I'd make sure it was the ski first as if it's the skier, no skis will make a difference. Little Angel
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Walter-Spitty, sounds like what you are after is a slightly softer but slalom profile ski? How about the Head Supershape? Different from the Speed which is almost cheater GS, or Magnum which is a little wider and softer for a bit more help in the deeper/softer. Personally I think the Magnum is a better buy 'cos it's usefully more versatile whilst not compromising piste performance very much at all. Also, you have Hemel and MK (doubt you could test any of these there but not sure) not far from you, so think a bit about what gilo said. Smile
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Walter-Spitty, What gilo, said wink
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I'm afraid I agre with under a new name, it would be lovely to blame some of my "problems" on my skis... but I fear it's me. Embarassed I don't think there's a single ski on this planet to make experts of us all - oh, snowblades right?

Obviously I can't see how you're falling, but by the way I interpret your description I feel as though you are angulating your body rather than angulating your skis...
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Walter-Spitty, I'm similar to you in ability and about 5 kgs heavier and I've skied the Head Supershapes (the ones slikedges highlights) and also the Stockli Laser SC that under_a_new_name mentions and they are both worked for me... Rossy's and Atomics I did NOT get on with.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I have K2 Apache Crossfires, and I'd highly recommend them, they're great for carving and hold well on icy patches (within reason, I have had them sliding when it got very icy). I would agree with queen bodecia that owning your own skis is probably the way forward. You can keep them sharp, and you get used to how they ski.
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Walter-Spitty wrote:
Experience: 17 weeks in total, started skiing aged 10 in 1981, good intermediate to advanced.


This doesn't make much sense.

gilo wrote:
hmmmm, falling onto inside hip? perhaps a lesson wink


This does.

Walter-Spitty wrote:
Height: 178 cm / 5' 10"
Weight: 66 kg / 145 lbs / 10 stone 5 lbs


No excuse. A good friend of mine is 5'10", 65kg he skis 188cm Anti-Pistes & 191cm P4

Maybe a lesson or three?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
slikedges wrote:
Walter-Spitty, sounds like what you are after is a slightly softer but slalom profile ski? How about the Head Supershape? Different from the Speed which is almost cheater GS, or Magnum which is a little wider and softer for a bit more help in the deeper/softer. Personally I think the Magnum is a better buy 'cos it's usefully more versatile whilst not compromising piste performance very much at all. Also, you have Hemel and MK (doubt you could test any of these there but not sure) not far from you, so think a bit about what gilo said. Smile

I ski the HEAD i.Supershape at Hemel. Turns on a sixpence (12.1m) with superb edge grip. I wouldn't want to take it off-piste though. If you want a go on them, just let me know.
The Magnum is more versatile, 71mm underfoot.
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Thank you very much for the advice. I really do appreciate you all taking the time to help me.

I mentioned the height-to-weight ratio purely to give some indication of my build, to see whether anyone thought a lack of strength might be causing problems for me.

I used to have my own 'straight' 191 cm skis back in 1994. I didn't ski again until 1997 which is when I started hiring skis. Unfortunately I used hire boots back then and terrible boot bang caused badly bruised and infected shins. I didn't ski again until 2006, when I had another bad experience with boot bang. Finally an older, wiser skier told me to seek out a professional boot fitter.

My boots were bought from and fitted by Profeet (with custom footbeds) after balance analysis etc in 2007. I've just recently had a new custom liner fitted, again by Profeet. So the boots give me really excellent control and have made a huge difference to my skiing experience.

Perhaps my balance *is* wrong, as some suggest, although I've made an effort over the last couple of years to commit my upper body to the fall line and angulate correctly. When I took the Dynastar Contact Groove Ti 160 cm hire skis back to the shop in Belle Plagne and asked for a longer ski with a little more flex, they gave me Rossignol B80 170 cm skis. The grip problem disappeared but I just didn't like the feel of the B80 skis on piste.

No doubt I could do with some more lessons.

Many thanks to everyone for the ski suggestions.
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The fact that you had no lessons between switching from straight skis until carvers is a huge indication that you need a lesson! Not swishing your upper body is great - but what are your legs doing?
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Walter-Spitty wrote:
When I roll skis onto their edges and push hard on the outside ski I don't seem to be able to push hard enough to bend the ski into a tighter arc. I'm getting very little feeling of rebound and acceleration out of the turn.


Why push hard Puzzled Just increase the edge angle/tighten the turn by using your ankles, knees & hips and the ski WILL bend. I suggest a lesson or 3 wink

p.s I am slightly older than you Sad 6.0 foot tall, weigh about 11.25 stones and eat what i like including lots of chocolate & cake and never put weight on Very Happy
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Walter-Spitty,
Quote:

The grip problem disappeared but I just didn't like the feel of the B80 skis on piste.


Ah. OK. More/better info. Maybe it was (at least partially) just the skis. Falling to the inside though - maybe you just need to spend some more time on ice learning how to spoof your way through it.
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Just in case anyone comes back to read this thread, I've just returned from a trip to Zermatt where I was using hire skis again but skiing on more challenging slopes than in La Plagne. In La Plagne I was falling onto my inside hip while skiing over icy patches and several people suggested the falls could be due to poor technique and not having enough lessons - a perfectly logical conclusion, but not one I totally agreed with because I have had some private lessons over the last few years.

There was a huge difference in edge grip between the hire skis I used in La Plagne and the ones I just used in Zermatt. I didn't fall over even once on the Zermatt trip, despite skiing on more challenging terrain and a couple of extremely icy slopes.

The skis I used this time were 08/09 season 162 cm Salomon XWing Tornado Ti, provided by the in-house ski technicians in an expensive hotel. I don't know whether the difference was due to the way the skis had been prepared or whether they just suited me better, but the Swiss definitely seem to pay more attention to detail than other Europeans.
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Walter-Spitty, A catch up lesson may defo be the way but demo some skis, buy the model you like and learn to keep the edges razor sharp. At least that way there will be no doubt in your mind and you know for certain that any problems are down to the captain and not the ship.
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Walter-Spitty, I agree that hire skis can often have ropey edges. However, I'm not sure why it makes you fall on your hip. If you hit an icy patch and your edges can't deal with it, don't turn there, just slide over the icy patch and turn somewhere grippier where edge hold is easier. This pretty much describes my entire ski hol in Courmayeur last season where I didn't feel my hire skis were up to much.

I now have my own skis with edges you could cut food with, but I'm still pretty picky where I turn. Why make life difficult for yourself?

If you're anything like me, then you'll definitely find some skis suit you better than others. However, falling over due to changes in terrain does sound like there might be a few skills lacking. You can't blame everything on equipment. A decent advanced skier would manage to ski well on pretty much any skis.
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Walter-Spitty, I did 4 weeks on my skis last year (on a lot of hard pack) and despite waxing I didn't touch the edges. I don't slip and my hip doesn't fall in.

Maybe, just maybe i) conditions were different in Zermatt and ii) you didn't learn everything there is to know in a couple of lessons over the last few years.
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Don't be frightened of taking your skis back and changing them, your holiday costs a lot so why put up with skis that are not working for you.

May be a good case for getting a recommendation for a good hire shop rather than one full of clapped out ski's.

You sound like you have done the same number of weeks as me, I consider myself pretty athletic and committed, put in lots of miles, have a couple of lessons a year, do reds & blacks, but there is no way I would consider myself to be intermediate/advanced ... if you are telling the shop this, you might be given inappropriate skis.

I tried XW Tornado's last year and didn't get on with them because imo they were too stiff for my ability. I bought some Contact 10's in a sale and absolutely love them.
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Walter-Spitty wrote:


When I roll skis onto their edges and push hard on the outside ski I don't seem to be able to push hard enough to bend the ski into a tighter arc. I'm getting very little feeling of rebound and acceleration out of the turn.
ions you can give me.


Sounds like you're trying too hard to pressure the outside ski. Modern carving skis respond well to skiing more two footed, rolling them onto their edges rather than pushing. You'd be surprised how much grip and power you can generate from the inside ski if you make an effort to use it more. As you start to generate more cornering force overall, you'll naturally generate the rebound and acceleration you're looking for.

Also get a pair of Head Supershapes and that will rule out any equipment issues. But you'll still have to maintain them regularly to keep the edges razor sharp.
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Walter-Spitty wrote:
The skis I used this time were 08/09 season 162 cm Salomon XWing Tornado Ti.



A great ski.

Strong and stable.

XWing Tornado is even better.

Buy it.

Then angulate the legs more.
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I found some skis that really like me:

1. HEAD iSupershape Speed (2009/10) 162 cm
2. Stöckli Laser SC (2010/11) 163 cm
3. Stöckli Laser CX (2010/11) 163 cm

I was quite impressed by the standard HEAD iSupershape, but the iSupershape Speed was better for me and had a lot more edge grip.

So the winner is...
clarky999 (he must be one of those psychic gurus who lives in a little shrine on the top of a mountain).

Runners up:
under a new name and red27 for suggesting the Stöckli Laser SC, a great ski too;
stewart woodward and uktrailmonster for the technique pointers.

Thanks to all.
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Lizzard wrote:
Volkl Tigershark.
wot the lizzard said.
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"Falling on inside hip" been there! I think most people have whether it be the ski or technique, mine like most was and sometimes still is technique, I've only ever been able to blame one specific set, verified promptly by others!!

like most, just angulating by throwing the hips in especially on hard stuff has disaster written all over it!

The secret is... "well i don't think it's really a secret" is to get the outside ski to grip and provide support before throwing the hips in "actually throwing the hips in isn't the best description either!"

A narrow stance is another hip killer! "again no secret" but easily forgotten!
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Falling onto your hips is more likely to be the result of not adapting your technique and stance to the conditions.

Your skiing history is highly suggestive of a narrow stance and the use of pure inclination rather than angulation, both of which will put you centre of mass outside the base of support of the skis and lead to falling onto your hip.

Even with poor edges if your stance and balance are correct then you will not fall onto your hip, your turns may wash out badly because of a lack of edge hold but if you have a stable skiing position no fall will result.

as gatecrasher, aludes to above you should not be 'throwing your hips' around but using outer leg extension to bring initiate the next turn.

With a long skiing history correcting your stance width will be quite difficult but i would reccomend you book some lessons before you buy new skis.

The is after all a well known saying about workmen and their tools.
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Walter-Spitty, only a runner up!! I mentioned Head Supershapes too wink

Agree with the above on stance too. A wider stance works better with modern skis and promotes more active use of the inside ski. If you lose grip on ice you slide rather than fall instantly.
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Quote:

So the winner is...
clarky999 (he must be one of those psychic gurus who lives in a little shrine on the top of a mountain).



Ha, I wish! In reality I'm just a gear geek who spends too much time looking at things I can't afford on the internet lol. Glad your got at least the equipment part sorted, it does sound like lessons will help as well.
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Walter-Spitty, what a nice man you are re-opening the thread to say thanks Smile snowHead

In this year of hardpack I've skied much shorter skis with excellent results - down to 158 tigersharks and I'm 5-10 and 11st/70kg
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Walter-Spitty, ...and RED27 - hmmmm....interesting re length. I've been reflecting on length a lot (see other thread on ski lengths) not with the intention of being dictatorial or dirigiste about it, but genuinely curious - mainly because I have intuitively moved towards shorter lengths for steeps and short turns (and back to narrower waists for hardpack) - and that despite having some longfats in the garage for powder days. For crashing through crud at the end of this weird season of premature spring snow I am indeed favouring 150 'heavies' such as the Rossignol 9S oversize (I am 5'7" and 145 pounds).

But in terms of the sentiment of your earlier post: sounds like you are ready to get your own skis. Why not fleabay two pairs - SL and powder. And transport them two in a bag paying only for one - perfectly feasible. Learn to keep the edges sharp - do John Coster's day course on maintenance of edges - worth EVERY penny. My edges go 'off' from optimum after a short while skiing on frozen early morning corduroy, but the point is that if you are not getting on the edge you at least know that, if the edges are known to be good, it's your technique which is at fault and you can then consciously, continually work on it. One part of the course is feeling edges to know when they are properly sharp (none of this it shaves my fingernail so it must be sharp nonsense) - properly sharp means not having a burr, not having case hardened sections etc - John C gives you the intuitive knowledge to feel the sharpness of edges - a fundamental skill as important as knowing how to use a file and guide.

Even in France - where many hire skis are indeed not optimally prep'd - and bearing in mind how little is made hiring skis, how badly the staff are often treated by clients, and the way that people treat hire skis, it's not surprising - you can have a quiet word with a good hire shop and get them to prep the edges properly for a couple of bottles of beer or even a kind word.

Summary:

- buy skis
- (ski short - ooppps I didn't say that.....)
- learn how to keep them bang-on sharp
- work on technique

or

- source properly sharp skis from good hire shops in the UK or from known good places in the report(s) of your choice (research beforehand through posting here)
- work on technique

...and have fun
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OFF's sake!!! unless you're on polished blue ice you hardly even need metal edges. All that Walter-Spitty is looking for is a ski that will compensate for his lack of technique and there are racks full of them designed just for that purpose. If you cannot adapt your skiing to compensate for ski size or shape, adverse conditions or blunt edges you are not an "Intermediate" skier . . . you're a recreational skier looking for something to help you look a better skier than you are . . . go back to school Evil or Very Mad
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Masque, ...whoah...rather extreme reaction. So edge sharpness is irrelevant? Note the OP was very much talking about ice, where I would say edge sharpness makes quite a difference. Lots of artificial snow this year has turned to large sheets of boilerplate - it's been a year of a lot of artificial and a lot of hard ice.

I was taking a novice down a narrow connection a couple of months ago and waa heeyyy....huge ice sheet under a dusting of new...both she and I held it together but only after going down sideways in a huge arc. I thought '...that was rubbish, why couldn't I get any purchase with my edges...' and then felt immediately better as an ESS instructor came onto the ice and described exactly the same path as me, with a look of surprise on his face...

I don't quite get such extreme response, actually. Edges DO make a difference on the kind of surfaces which we are having lots of this year, right the way through the Alps. Yes, I run some pairs of skis with blunt edges all the time, otherwise I'd be spending all my mornings and evenings on the bench, and have no metal left on my skis (and some are edge de-tuned for doing silly things) - but it's really not right to say the edge tune is irrelevant - and read the OPs second post - he's being very discriminating re technique, conditions of piste, and equipment tune.
Skullie
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Is it just me or there is a slight amusement angle here. The OP writes:

Quote:

I'd love to know the opinions of advanced-to-expert piste carvers

and
Quote:

if you skid/slide your turns rather than carve then I really don't need to know your opinion.


Then admits to ending up on their inside hip on many occasions and gets a thread full of answers suggesting that lessons are needed. I'm sorry, but there just seems a smattering of poetic justice there - sorry Walter-Spitty, but I can just see the funny side of it though I'm sure you are a better skier than I. Laughing
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Masque, do you even ski? Confused
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scotia, he does, but is also an expert in hyperbole! wink
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