 Poster: A snowHead
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Beware, if you like to get a move on and drive through France. Yesterday, Boxing Day, I thought they would all have their feet up in the warm. I was surprised driving towards Calais in very light (almost none) traffic we spotted, in time I think/hope, four separate mobile speed cameras. One was the usual about 2km before the last Peage, the others were about 25 km 40 km 75 km earlier.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Good.  Speed limits on the French autoroutes are sensible, and personally I'm glad the flics are out there looking for the people who think they can safely drive at 95 mph for hours on end. The death rate has dropped considerably since they got serious about it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The one just before the peage (anywhere between the 40 and 36km markers) is there almost every day. They did me last year for being 5km over the limit.
Then, when paying the €45 fine in the police station at the peage, they just wanted to know about my car and why I was driving a 911 so slowly. When I told them that I may have been doing well over 200km/h since Bourg they all shook my hand. Nice blokes, but they seemed to want to nick anything with UK plates. I fear the ML driver who had passed me earlier, when I was doing 130(mph) may not have faired so well. His car was still there, he was not. They can confiscate your car in France now.
There were 2 more mobile cameras with pursuit cars/bikes between there and Calais.
If going to my wife's parents, we take the N26 west past Abbeville, rather than the A26 and A1 to Paris. Never seen a single plodmobile on this road in years.
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Trust me they don't pick in UK plates.... I got done on my last trip back to France... 141 in a 130!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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not sure that's true - my wife was fined about 80 Euro (i think) when she left the peage before my son had put his seatbelt on - they followed her for miles and made her pay cash. I think you will find there are many examples of people getting done despite UK plates
What I do think is right is that you cant's get done by an unmanned camera although if you subsequently get stopped, they do you for both offences . . . . 
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I think it's something to do with database rules - the UK won't release the name and address of the car owner to an overseas government. Happy to be corrected by anybody who has been fined by a remote camera . . . .of course if you are physicaly stopped, they do an on the spot fine.
They love the Calais run and time you between getting on the autoroute and coming off and getting your average speed.
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The French - by actually applying the law amongst other things - have been hugely successful in dropping their Road Traffic Death Rates to something closer to the UKs in the last 10 years.
Good luck to them. No sympathy at all for those who get caught. 130km is fast enough and there are damn great signs which everyone can see saying the speed limit.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The average speed thing is a myth, accordingly my in laws who live in France.
Let's not start getting on our high horses over what is and isn't safe speed for others to drive at, or we will have to include Germany in the thread.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| The average speed thing is a myth, accordingly my in laws who live in France. |
Yes ... a myth.
| Quote: |
| Let's not start getting on our high horses over what is and isn't safe speed for others to drive at, or we will have to include Germany in the thread. |
No need to ...as Stoatsbrother writes , actually enforcing the speed limits and other driving offenses in the recent past ( not just on autoroutes) has decimated the death and injury statistics in France. QED.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Don't see it really matters what plates you have on your car or what country you are in, if you choose to ignore speed limits, seatbelt laws or whatever don't be surprised if a passing plod asks you to pay for the choice you made!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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davkt, except of course here in the UK, where most drivers don't appear to be aware that there are such things as speed limits (and they certainly are not being enforced or there would be hardly any traffic on the roads) - unless they happen to spot a camera, in which case they appear to immediately brake to a speed as far below the limit as they were previously doing above it
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You know it makes sense.
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Yoda, exactly! At least Derbyshire police still gets round to putting some manned speed traps on in random but high accident spots! It reall bugs me when people complain about speeding fines, if you were sticking to what had been decided was the appropriate safe speed you wouldn't get fined. Sure maybe you don't agree with the limit but its set by the folks our taxes pay to make such desicions!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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davkt, If te speed limits were set to "what had been decided was the appropriate safe speed", on an individual basis, then I think far fewer people would ignore them.
But the vast majority of speed limits in the UK are just arbitrary limits, bearing very little relationship to the safe speed for the road, evenin one particular set of conditions.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Arbitrary? Well let's do more abritrary and get "random" outcomes like this>
UK cities should have more 20mph speed zones, as they have cut road injuries by over 40% in London, a study claims.
In particular the number of children killed or seriously injured has been halved over the past 15 years, the British Medical Journal reported.
The London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine study estimates 20mph zones have the potential to prevent up to 700 casualties in London alone.At 20mph, it is estimated only one in 40 pedestrians is killed in a crash.This compares with a one in five chance for someone hit at 30mph.
This evidence supports the rationale for 20mph zones not just in major cities in Britain, but also in similar metropolitan areas elsewhere
The researchers compared data on road collisions, injuries and deaths in London between 1986 and 2006, with speed limits on roads.
After adjusting for a general reduction in road injuries in recent years, they found that the introduction of 20mph zones were associated with a 41.9% drop in casualties. The greatest reduction was seen in children under the age of 11 years and in the numbers of all ages killed or seriously injured.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8406569.stm
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 28-12-09 23:15; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Let's cut to 10mph on ALL roads and cut to zero deaths then 
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Of course one lesson from variable speed limits on the M25 etc is that sometimes a lower speed leads to faster journey speeds and times.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ccl wrote: |
Arbitrary? Well let's do more abritrary and get "random" outcomes like this>
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Do you understand the meaning of the word "arbitrary"?
If you did, then you know absolutely that was a pointless and stupid comment.
If (as seems more likely) you don't, then may I suggest you look it up?
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20 limits are a waste of time.
The majority already drive below 30mph at the danger points, and safely enough on the bits where 30 indicated is reasonable.
The new, lower limit makes no difference the real problem: the few percent who drive too quickly for the conditions. They ignore the new, lower limit.
The only thing 20 limits achieve is in allowing self congratulation that "something has been done".
http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roadsafety/research/rsrr/theme4/interimeval20mphspeedlimits.pdf
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| The average speed after the 20 mph speed limits were imposed was 0.9 miles per hour lower than the average speed before the speed limits were imposed. This change is not statistically significant. |
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The analysis showed the total accident reduction was 13% and the number of casualties fell by 15%. KSI casualty numbers stayed the same whilst KSI accidents increased by 2%. None of these results were statistically significant when compared against national trends.
There were wide variations between the six sectors. |
Way off topic, I know.
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I speed pretty much constantly, and have never been busted either here or abroad.
In your FACE, "The Man".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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paulio, assuming that your first statement is true, why do you do it?
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| Quote: |
paulio, assuming that your first statement is true, why do you do it?
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... to get there quicker...?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Because it's cool. Same as smoking.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ski Tyke, don't be silly.
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paulio, ah, I thought you weren't being honest with us.
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You know it makes sense.
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I don't smoke any more as it happens.
Speeding though, come on. Who rigidily sticks to 70 on motorways, hands up?
Nobody. Thought so.
130k is an excellent speed limit though, we should definitely have that here (so I could drive at 140).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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French accident stats are little different to German stats for fatal accidents per capita yet some roads in Germany have no speed limit. The Isle of Man is another territory that sees no need for a limit. 70mph was decided to be the limit when the biggest selling car was the Ford Anglia. How do its brakes compare with a Ford Focus?
If you impose a speed limit, the slower it is to what the driver feels may be safe - the less he will feel he needs to concentrate on the road ahead. That the driver is within the limit gives him a very false sense of security. By the same token, 30mph or 40mph can be very inappropriate for some roads.
The Police consider that speed was the cause of very few accidents. Lack of attention is by far the biggest cause of accidents and by far the biggest contribution to them being fatal accidents. An alert driver seeing a child run out and braking from 30mph to 5mph will cause much less injury than one doing 20mph but who doesn't even brake before the impact.
Were the science of speed and accidents proven, there would not be a variation in limit on the motorways across Europe.
The reliance on policing speed limits does road safety few favours. People who drive for miles in the middle lane of a 3 lane motorway, at exactly the speed limit, over taking no one and oblivious to anyone around them are by far the most dangerous drivers on our roads today. These are the same drivers who will drive up to a roundabout, stop and then look to see if it is clear. Fine these people of the roads and set up random check points for drug and drink testing and we will see meaningful reductions in accidents.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Just cost us £600 plus points for going fast on the motorway -- DEFINITELY NOT COOL IN MY BOOK
The French speed limit seems OK to me and there was no aggravating tailgating either
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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bar shaker, spot on!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
bar shaker, Death rates in France and Germany - see page 45 & 46 - (and there is a small fall in 2006 and 2007 too) - have both been falling - but both per mile are still pretty poor compared with the UK. The lack of a speed limit on the autobahn is almost irrelevant as most of the road deaths do not happen on motorways - which are fairly safe roads. The fall in French death rate seems to have coincided with various things including more rigorous application of the speed limits. The remaining risk factors (dare one say being French vs being German?) may rather more difficult to deal with  |
The reduction in French death rates is almost completely attributable to road blocks breath testing every motorist. Away from Paris (although possibly there too) many of the drivers on French roads would fail a breath test, possibly a majority of them. The same may be true in Germany, but I have no experience of life there. In France, not only was drunk driving not policed in the countryside, but the local gendarme may well have enjoyed a few glasses over lunch in the same bar as you. He would almost certainly have let his drinking buddies know if a road block was to be set up near the village. This attitude has changed considerably in the past 5 years and much of the accident reduction is a result of this. To understand the cultural difference in the use of alcohol, its worth remembering that Air France pilots were given a glass of wine with their in flight meals until 2 years ago.
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
As far as motorways are concerned - a lot of the safety factors relate to separated traffic, few turn offs etc etc |
This makes you wonder why there is the drive to nick UK drivers for 135kmh then.
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
- and I would like to see a 110/130 kph limit like France in exchange for a 20mph limit in residential areas to protect kids and pedestrians and encourage more cycling. |
So would I want this but the UK road safety lobby (and government) have convinced themselves that excess speed is the only cause of UK road accidents. A future government may be different but 85mph would never happen under the current lot.
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
as for 20 vs 30, the data is pretty good there. And people don't even drive at 30 usually - 40 is nearer the truth. |
I don't think there is any such thing as reliable data in road traffic accidents. The income has become too big and too important for mere statistcal facts to get in the way of it. By way of an example, a local camera partnership will be telling you loudly that they have reduced accidents by 50% if one person dies at an accident blackspot, as opposed to the two who died there the previous year. If three people die there, they will tell you nothing. After introducing a massive amount of speed camareas some years ago, Essex Camera Partnership announced a big reduction in accidents at known blackspots (camera locations). It did not mention that overall road deaths had gone up by over 20% that year and that motorbike deaths were 50% higher.
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
If you react in 0.3 secs you get about 1.5m less reaction distance at 20mph than 30mph plus a reduced braking distance. Comparing being a driver who does not react at 20 vs one who does at 30 is rather an odd comparison. You should compare one who does react at 20 with one who does at 30, and one who doesnt at 20 and one who doesn't at 30. |
You have missed my point completely. No one should drive in a built up area at a speed that would preclude them from stopping in the distance they can see to be clear. The slower you tell people they must drive at, the safer they will feel it is to rummage around for cigarettes or cds, or generally have a mental rest from driving. In this situation, their reaction time may well be no where near 0.3 seconds.
| stoatsbrother wrote: |
Your whole reply does seem to say - "I am safe therefore I should be allowed to drive fast - just get the other muppets off the road..." |
I am saying that I am alert, therefore I am safer than the people who are not alert. Driving laws are being framed for people who are not alert, albeit that those laws are creating a situation whereby those very people will feel less need to be alert. If you are not concentrating and reading the hazards around you, controlling your speed to suit them, then no speed is safe.
If you really wanted to cut road deaths to virtually nil, you could do away with driver's seat belts and air bags and would mandate that every car had a sharp 10" spike fixed to the centre of the steering wheel. A ridiculous proposal maybe, but I suspect it would work.
In the meantime, the UK government and now the French government, will carry on taxing UK motorists for being a few mph/kmh over the limit on deserted motorways.
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| Quote: |
| The reduction in French death rates is almost completely attributable to road blocks breath testing every motorist. Away from Paris (although possibly there too) many of the drivers on French roads would fail a breath test, possibly a majority of them. |
Rubbish .... most agree that the big drop is due to enforcement of all driving offenses and PARTICULARLY the seat-belt and speeding laws.
Your assertion that most French drivers would fail a breath-test is nonsensical ( but very funny as a luddite's view of the French!) .. they dont drink as much as the Brits anyways !!
Never seen a road-block ...hilarious , where do you get this stuff?
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My wife's parents live in the Loire valley and are staying with us this Christmas. They see French life away from the major towns and employment centres. As does my friend who worked at Airbus in Tours until last year.
I agree that in towns and cities drink driving was/is less of a problem. They tell me that road blocks are common in rural France, specifically to breathalise drivers. They are still told when and where they will be set up.
I don't feel I am a luddite of French ways. I am envious of much of their culture and have spent quite a bit of time in France each year since having a French pen friend 33 years ago. Perhaps I am wrong and the French don't regard it as ritualistic to drink with every meal.
Perhaps France isn't the only country in the world in which its MacDonalds restaurants sell beer and wine.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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bar shaker, Well I've lived here for 15 years and what you have written is, I'm sorry, incorrect. Road Blocks are not common, in fact I have never seen one. Spot-checks have become more-and more so ( but nothing to do with drink-driving as I've already said).
No -- France isnt the only country where McDo serve alcohol.
No -- The French do not drink alcohol with very meal .... and, if you actually had observed rather than created uninformed opinion, when they do the driver rarely drinks and frequently the amount of alcohol consumed by diners is very very little ( by British standards).
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I think it depends on the French people. I spent a year in France as part of my degree and spent a lot of time with a fencing club. I came to the conclusion that the people I was in contact with (a cross section of relatively well educated people - the general demographic for fencing) were far more likely to have a couple of drinks before driving than the people I knew in the UK. Most of my friends then and now will not drink at all if they are driving (with the occasional exception of a glass of wine/champagne at an event where you know you will be there for another 4-6 hours). The French people I spent time with were quite happy to drive after drinking a kir, a couple of glasses of wine, and possibly a digestif.
As for speeding, my OH drives faster than me and neither of us have had a speeding ticket in 8+ years of driving. OH does 20K + work miles a year, although I do fewer. I consider him a far safer driver than me as he has much better anticipation of what other road users will do. He is also constantly aware of potential hazards, and where police cameras may be, and will slow down from his cruising speed when approaching potential hazards. Certainly, compared to a lot of people round here, he is conscious of the fact that some of the junctions onto our main dual carriageway have really short slip roads, and will try to make sure that there is space for people to join. There are some major speed differentials on this road due some short, uphill slip roads (fun in an underpowered car/truck) and some steep hills, where you can find a truck struggling to maintain 20 mph as it's overladen for its available power. The number of people who seem to find themselves nearly driving into the back of a struggling truck, because they failed to notice that it was there, and that he or I had dropped our speed to allow them out about 1/2 mile back when we saw the truck/tractor/horsebox.
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FAQ
. See the 130kph in France as perfectly acceptable and have very little sympathy for those Brits caught. The French police, and you would if you were them, see the Brits as easy revenue so why give them the chance. 
