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Help! Just had edges sharpened and no longer recognise my skis!!!

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
So I just had the waxing (fartage) and edges (affutage) done on my skis. Took them out and ..... I no longer recognise my skis. I found it virtually impossible to turn the skis, ride the edges in carving and do much else. Very frustrating. Has anyone else had this problem? It is not the waxing (which I do regularly) but the re-edging. It has completely changed (for the worse) the skiing experience on my skis.

I found a similar discussion on a related french site: http://www.skipass.com/forums/sports/sports_hiver/telemark/sujet-79627-0.html

So I guess I am not the first one to have this experience. I'm a pretty decent skiier, but had the most torrid day I can remember in a long time -- felt like I had lost about 3 years of technical ability.

What is going on?? It is the first time I've had this done (since I am skiing on my own skis after all this time). It is like the skis are constantly on their edges (kind of like a train riding on tracks). I cannot get the skis to sit flat on their soles (semelles). They do not turn, and when they do, I just cannot get them to go in the same direction!

I've heard that the sharpening should be done less on the spatule (front) and talon (rear) ends of the skis? Maybe it wasn't done this way in the shop where I took them (Decathelon, Grenoble). Anything I can do -- I'm hoping that the more I ski on them the more quickly these 'super sharpended' edes will grind down - so I can get my old skis back!

javascript:emoticon('Puzzled')
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Quote:

What is going on?? It is the first time I've had this done (since I am skiing on my own skis after all this time). It is like the skis are constantly on their edges (kind of like a train riding on tracks). I cannot get the skis to sit flat on their soles (semelles). They do not turn, and when they do, I just cannot get them to go in the same direction!


You, sir, very likely have a hanging burr.

If this is is the case, someone who knows what they are doing can fix this in 2 minutes with either a diamond stone or an arkansas stone.

http://www.epicski.com/forum/thread/54656/hanging-burr




The other alternative, less likely, 'railed' edges, also known as edge-high bases, can be checked in 20 seconds with a ruler and a light, thus:





Quote:

I've heard that the sharpening should be done less on the spatule (front) and talon (rear) ends of the skis?


For people with weak side-to-side balance skills, this is done. For half-decent skiers, this is not done.
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Exactly as comprex, puts it. See if you can feel a little burr pointing downwards from your edges with the end of your finger nail by scraping it from the base of the ski out past the edge.

It may also be that the base angles are too flat and the slightest movement is catching an edge,
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One of those rubber gummi stones is also good for smoothing off burrs.
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CharlieL wrote:
So I just had the waxing (fartage) and edges (affutage) done on my skis..


Wandering way OT, really, but I have tended to use the term 'les carres' for edges, in preference to 'affutage'. Is 'affutage' the word, these days - or are both terms common?
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do what the others recommneded but another problem could be that they ground the base perfectly flat and left you with a 0 degreee base angle and an 90 degree side angle. this happened to me once and the skis were completely different to ski.

your skis came from the factory with these angle s set and depending on the make and model it would have been something like 88 side and 1 base. look up your skis factory angels and have the edges redone at a go to a ski shop that can do angle by request.
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I suffered a day just as you described after having my skis allegedly edged and waxed by my local ski shop here in the south. Much amusement for my pals watching me look as if I had never skiied before. Took skis to Precision ski shop in resort and asked them to do the edges. Next morning my skis were as they should be and so was my skiing (thank god) I swore blind that something was wrong with the edges although I didnt know what. None of my friends believed me until the same happened to one of them after their skis were serviced and I got a grudging admission that I was probably right.
Therefore I suggest going to different ski shop to quickly have the edges done again. Maybe check what the makers recommended edge angles are and tell them in the shop
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hi everyone - thanks for all of the comments. that is really useful. i will look into it. My skiis are Head Xenon 4.0 - I guess the Head website will have these technical details (unless anyone knows already). Will post back. It was one of the most terrible experiences I've ever had on the snow! Achilles - you are quite right. The edges are 'les carres' in french. Affutage is the name for edge sharpening.
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CharlieL, I'd agree with teh above that it's likely they've just failed to de-burr them. This is a two minute job and if this is all that needs done getting them re-edged is a bit overkill.
According to spyderjons site Head'd should ship with a 1 degree edge angle and 1 degree bevel.
Hope this helps
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Agree with the comment about edge angles!........could be the base bevel..................you may not have one!!!! try putting a bevel on and see how they go!
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achilles wrote:
CharlieL wrote:
So I just had the waxing (fartage) and edges (affutage) done on my skis..


Wandering way OT, really, but I have tended to use the term 'les carres' for edges, in preference to 'affutage'. Is 'affutage' the word, these days - or are both terms common?


The edges are indeed called les carres, "affuter/affutage" is sharpen/sharpening.

So if you want wax and edges done, yes you ask for "fartage et affutage"
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They need to be tuned regardless of angle grind. The first 20o mm of the tail and about 300mm of the shovel need to be dulled. You can do this with a screwdriver - running it up and down the appropriate area or if you have acccess to a file all the better....................... Smile
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Maersk wrote:
..... The first 20o mm of the tail and about 300mm of the shovel need to be dulled. .....


Oooh. Very brave, taking on our resident guru - Madeye-Smiley

Jon wrote:
Not detuning the tips & tails gives better turn initiation on carvers


Though I grant he does give detuning advice for those who want that.
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Maersk wrote:
They need to be tuned regardless of angle grind. The first 20o mm of the tail and about 300mm of the shovel need to be dulled. You can do this with a screwdriver - running it up and down the appropriate area or if you have acccess to a file all the better....................... Smile

That is so wrong rolling eyes
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spyderjon, Long story sorry! I need some of your trusty help. Similar to all the above. Have had my fischers serviced as the base edge was getting too tired and the bases need a grind as wax was not going in very well. First service they have had. Told them 1 degree base and 2 deg side (so i can cut to 3 deg if i feel they need it)

Have also raised the toe by 2.5mm, so out skiing we go, powder day, they are fine and i have less quad ache and feel less in backseat so assume toe raise has worked.

Out again a few days later, soft pistes, but no powder.so one piste difficult to engage in the turn on piste,seem very slow and then once engaged the turn can't get them off it, want to turn me round Inside ski has to be really steered just to make it track. Moguls are not fun as inside ski wants to track round mogul. swop skis over and seem a bit better.

Get back, fund a huge burr at a right angle (like a ridge running nail down side edge stops the nail) from the binding back on one ski, the other seems ok. Remove it, but they are skiing the same, dreadful.

Have run diamond stone down base edge with pen on it and it is 1 degree. Have run light diamond stone down the side edges. The edges are sharp and seem smooth, but my favourite skis are very sick and horrible to ski. They always were a bit twitchy going down cat tracks, but now they are unmanagable, but don't want to turn without real effort and seem heavy and very slow.

Has the toe lift caused this, or is there something weird with the tune. I can not seem to find any burrs, but the edges are very very sharp or seem it. Whats wrong...help!!
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carroz, I'm curous, why would raising your toe raised result in less quad ache (caused by sitting too far back?) and a feeling of being in the backseat (caused by sitting too far back?)? Seems counter intuitive to me.

Anyway.

Just recall, though, folks that a 0 degree base edge is not always undesirable.

Amazing what can happen though. A friends skis were taken in for a full service, many holes to fix, etc. Next morning, picked up and she literally couldn't ski on them. I had a shot and I couldn't get them to run. Quick examination and the base had a most odd pattern to it's surface.

No idea what had happened, they went back in, much gallic embarrassment - apparently they'd been moved from the "partially done" pile to the "finished" pile prematurely. Extraordinary.
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under a new name, Too much ramp in the binding, with a forward leaning boot, and a small foot, all which i have. Means you are pitched forward.

so to compensate you tend to sit back, and have a short squatty stance, hence burning quads. So raised the toe height and its gone away.

I am wondering if the skis had been finished properly as well, as they were wet when i picked them up, i assume from the stone grinder, so they were just out.

They have a very heavy structure (which is not what i asked for, i wanted a fine structure) and the waxing was not brill (i have waxed them, hot scrapped them and waxed as loads of hairs from the grind since)

Just they ski like junk!! and they are not!
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hi guys - just wanted to update from my original post, and all the help provided. a couple of possibilities were raised: edge burr (which I think is rough edges?) and the railed edge theory. I checked both and couldn't find a problem. It is hard to say whether they cut the edges with the Head recommended 1 degree base and 1 degree edge - at least with the naked eye! They look pretty flat to me, so there may be no base angle at all -- though I am not sure if this is necessarily a bad thing (afterall, what's one degree Happy?

Anyway, after the disasterous day that had me start the thread, I decided to give the skiis another go. Hey presto! No problem. At least, not on fresh snow. I was skiing just like normal again. Which makes me wonder whether this whole thing was just in my head to start with (slightly worrying!!) -- or maybe, having skiied another day it smoothed out any burr problems -- how likely is that?
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CharlieL, In soft snow the effect will be felt less, 1 degree is huge. My slalom RC4 have a 0.7 base edge and 3 degee side edge. I have run them 0.5 base, but i am not skilled enough to cope with it. Unless you put a straight edge on the ski and look with light behind you will not see the base edge.CharlieL,
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Carroz -- I'll take a look at the base edge using the method you suggest. thanks!
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CharlieL wrote:
hi guys - just wanted to update from my original post, and all the help provided. a couple of possibilities were raised: edge burr (which I think is rough edges?) and the railed edge theory. I checked both and couldn't find a problem.


NO. A hanging burr is NOT a rough edge. It cannot be detected by feel except that sometimes it can actually feel *sharper* than normal.


A hanging burr is a filament of metal that is left on the edge by sharpening. The unpredictability is caused by the fact that it can bend and fold over, hiding the true edge. A chef with a kitchen steel is straightening out the hanging burr on the knife , not actually sharpening the knife.





Unlike a kitchen knife, that's picked up and put down to cut, where a hanging burr is useful to cut through delicate things like tomatoes, skiers -roll- onto their edges, curling up that burr unpredictably. Making the whole edge grab. Or let go. At different times. Gotta get rid of it.

So, with skis, the diagnosis is also the solution - use a hard stone on your edges to get rid of the extra material. Takes less than 2 minutes. You can't check the problem without also solving it, unless you have a good microscope.




You're confusing "hanging burr" with "burred edge" to mean "rock hit" edge. Two completely different concepts.


I am almost completely certain that improper edge angles are not causing your problem: People skied with 0 degree base and 90 degree edge angles for decades and adapted to the feel. You are a better skier than that and you would have adapted your skiing to the new edge feel. It is not unpredictable unless you yourself are causing the unpredictability with bad balance.
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Comprex- Thanks for the wonderful clarification. I also don't think the original problem was with the edge angles --- I'm pretty sure that I could have coped with that.

You mention running a hard stone down the edges to cure possible hanging burr. I guess also that hanging burr could sheer off of its own accord eventually (particularly if you do lots of successive 'derapage' down ice on purpose). I've noticed that some of the ski shops here in france sell something called 'gomme' (which I assume is rubber) - can this be used to clear off the hanging burr or smooth burred edge? And can this really be done also with a hard stone from the garden (cheaper option if it doesn't destroy the edges) ?
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CharlieL wrote:
I guess also that hanging burr could sheer off of its own accord eventually (particularly if you do lots of successive 'derapage' down ice on purpose).


Sure, but that would be a waste of almost a week of skiing. These things are *tough* little bggers, or they wouldn't last as long as they do on kitchen knives.

Quote:

I've noticed that some of the ski shops here in france sell something called 'gomme' (which I assume is rubber) - can this be used to clear off the hanging burr or smooth burred edge?


Too soft to work quickly. A hardware store might have a cheap flat sharpening stone, for knives or scissors or lawn mower blades.

Quote:

And can this really be done also with a hard stone from the garden (cheaper option if it doesn't destroy the edges) ?


If you can find one that's flat enough. Laughing
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carroz, umm. OK. I think I see what you mean. (Sorry everyone for thread drift). Hmmm Will think about and maybe start a thread.
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carroz wrote:

They have a very heavy structure


This is why they feel like "junk".

Heavy structure near to the edge will make weird tracking issues if you are slow to put it on the real edge, or if are trying to "feather" the engagement of the real edge.

Test my prediction: wax with a really hard wax, like CH4, then scrape but don't brush. If the turning gets better...


Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Sat 27-02-10 2:48; edited 1 time in total
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under a new name wrote:
carroz, umm. OK. I think I see what you mean. (Sorry everyone for thread drift). Hmmm Will think about and maybe start a thread.


Look for ssh's threads about having a "gas pedal" built into the sole of the boot.
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comprex, ok
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comprex, Thank you for the advice, I will give it a go and give them a wax and not brush out, just polish it. I also think they may still have a hanging burr from your description above, will use the oxide stone in the base guide I have as i was very very gentle with the diamond stone on the base edge so not to increase the angle and only used a gummi on them otherwise.

Can't test them it till in chamonix next month, anyone know a good tuning shop in chamonix (never been before!!) if worse comes to worse and they have to be redone. I will get them to do 0 degrees, 90 degress and do the rest myself this time.
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hi when sharpening edges you are left with a hanging burr, comprex, has given great detail on it, with tuning you use a gummi stone to remove the burr or a burrbuster if you want to splash out, carroz, check out http://www.jonsskituning.co.uk/content/category/5/14/34/ . Before you go to a shop to get your angles reset, which is a bit drastic and removes more metal than you need to as well as grinding the base.
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1 pass with a gummi stone is enough to get rid of a burr (Press it at 45 degs to the edge and run it along). Using anything more abrasive or metal to do it is a bit of overkill! As for a screw driver!!!!!!!
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Anyone tried one of these Burr Doctor gadgets for deburring: http://www.dmtsharp.com/howtos/skideburr.htm

Just found it when I was trawling the web. Are they any good. Looks like you can adjust the angle from 0 to 5 degrees (why you would ever want to go that high I am not sure!). Anyway, looks quite handy if it works?
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CharlieL, you mean one of these wink: http://www.jonsskituning.co.uk/component/page,shop.product_details/flypage,shop.flypage/product_id,136/category_id,19/manufacturer_id,0/option,com_virtuemart/Itemid,1/

The Edge Trick/Skiburr tools are cost effective portable tools & are ideal for minor fettling at the end of the day etc & do a good job in that respect.

Note that you should not use a diamond stone/file to deburr as the burrs have usually been case hardened & are therefore so hard as to blunt the tool. Instead always use an alu-oxide stone first to remove the burrs & then move on to a metal file &/or diamond file to sharpen. This is why I sell them with both an alu-oxide & diamond file insert. Always use the diamond stone wet (water/snow etc).
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That's handy Happy How quickly could you get one to me in Grenoble if I placed an order? I'm hoping to get up to Alpes Grandes Serres thursday to visit the Head Demo - and would like to give my side edges a quick going over, in case there might be a hanging burr issue following the affutage nightmare I had - (though see above, I had one good day in deep moguls shortly after and no longer noticed an issue, leading me to suspect some psychological trauma behind the problem Happy, though, as someone pointed out above, one might notice a hanging burr problem less in deep or wet snow, so I may still have a problem lurking.

ps. Do you recommend running the stone down the full side edge length (tip to tail) of the skis first with Alu and then the (wet) diamond - or leave the tips and tails alone? I guess you can get hanging burr along any part of the edge. I have Head Xenon 4.0 with (or at least are supposed to have I think) a 1 deg base and 1 deg edge angle - if that is relevant to know.

Nice shop by the way, glad I had an opportunity to check out the website.
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CharlieL, yep, full length. Lap of the gods re French postage I'm afraid but we can despatch today by RM's International Signed For service. My online store won't recognise a French address so please email me via the contact tab on my site with your requirements/shipping address so we can post today & I'll send you an invoice tonight. Note that I can't access snowHeads during the day but I can access my email & online store.
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Great. I've just sent you an email through your store. Get back to me here if you haven't received it before you get back on Snowheads later. cheers, c.
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CharlieL wrote:
Maybe it wasn't done this way in the shop where I took them (Decathelon, Grenoble).


To be honest Decathlon are not the best people to do this kind of job. Did you to to la Tronche, St Egreve or Espace Comboire. If you haven't had your edges sharpened for some time it could just be that having a decent edge has thrown you (so to speak)

Try somewhere like Adrenaline or Espace Montagne for your next service.
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Yes, I went to La Tronche (we live at Ile Verte just across from the hospital). The skis are quite new, but I have been skiing at least three times a week since Jan 1st - and started feeling that the edges were losing their grip. I'd don't think they did a good job, but will run the deburring gadget over them once I get it from Spyderjon to make sure. They might have changed the edge angles. By the way, I saw your other thread on small Isere stations. I was up at St Pierre last week - needs snow. Grass showing through down towards the station (it is only at around 1000 meters at the station, going up to 1700). Otherwise, pretty wet snow - but good fun anyway (plus they have a new 6 seater chair lift if you haven't seen it already). Have also been to Lans en Vercour, Le Touquet, Le Sappey, Chamrousse (regular haunt) and Alpes Grande Serre so far. Very much like St Pierre (pity they are struggling for snow in these smaller stations now it has warmed up).

Is Adrenaline in the town (Jean Jaures)? Might take them there at least to check that the edges are still 1 degree edge and 1 degree side as per Head specs after the visit to Decathlon. I would really like to know now !
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