 Poster: A snowHead
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Why do the french, austrian and pretty much evertone else thinkg the british are rude. I would like to start a "be nice to to everyone else in the world thread"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Probably because they tend to be a bit rude. However, the French also think that French people on holiday en masse are rude and insufferable as well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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mr ted, I think one reason is that some Brits abroad don't take the trouble to learn about local customs/politeness. For example, in France, they will walk into a bar and order "two beers please" or even "deux bieres, s'il vous plait".
But to do that without saying "bonjour" first, is considered rather rude. And just to talk to someone in a foreign language without asking first whether they speak English is pretty rude - imagine a German marching into Marks and Spencers in Rotherham and asking - politely - for what they want, in German. You would expect them to be able to say (in English) "Excuse me, but do you speak German?" first.
In a busy bar in a big resort full of Brits you hardly need to ask, obviously, they'll all speak English. (But you must still definitely say "bonjour"). But a bit off the beaten track (buying fuel, for example, or if you have to ask the way somewhere) then it's definitely extremely rude just to march in speaking English. I was in our Tourist Office once when two middle-aged English women marched in and said "Where's the nail bar?" they didn't say bonjour, or even good morning. They didn't mean to be rude, they were just thoughtless and ignorant.
In fact, it's definitely rather rude to go to a country without having made any effort at all to speak a few basic phrases of their language. The effort will be all the more appreciated in more obscure places - my daughter learnt a bit of Arabic (which she found very hard) before a windsurfing holiday in Egypt and was greeted with enormous friendliness and appreciation when she tried, even though she could only say about 3 things.
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A sweeping generalisation but on the whole I try to disassociate myself from Brits abroad. Examples of drunken loutery, refusal to speak anything other than their mother tongue and to try experiences outside of their usual habits (pubs/fish and chip shops alongside beautiful mediterranean beaches are all wrong in my book).
However, I don't tend to like Italian men much either. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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language aside, some people are just plonkers no matter where they come from, what they speak or what sport they do. Treat others the way you want to be treated yourself and you cant go too far wrong.
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Johnny Foreigner just doesn't appreciate class when he sees it.
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Bode Swiller, but which class?
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| queen bodecia wrote: |
A sweeping generalisation but on the whole I try to disassociate myself from Brits abroad. Examples of drunken loutery, refusal to speak anything other than their mother tongue and to try experiences outside of their usual habits (pubs/fish and chip shops alongside beautiful mediterranean beaches are all wrong in my book).
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Very well said 
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pam w, +1
Actually, I'd never dream of asking for two beers without saying hello in England.
I've spent a lot of time in Ireland in recent years and they're definitely more polite than the English in that regard. The hotel in Dublin was full of Italian rugby supporters this week. They were very well behaved.
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| Quote: |
And just to talk to someone in a foreign language without asking first whether they speak English is pretty rude - imagine a German marching into Marks and Spencers in Rotherham and asking - politely - for what they want, in German. You would expect them to be able to say (in English) "Excuse me, but do you speak German?" first.
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I'm not sure it's the same thing. I've said it before, but english is the default "international" language. It's not my native language, but I expect people that work with tourists, to be able to speak english at a minimal level. I do expect to go into a shop in Austria, Greece or Japan and be able to converse in English. I would think it rude (actually stupid) to go into a shop in London and start speaking in German, French, Swedish or Chinese.
You, seem to view it a sign of imperialism or cultural opression or whatever, and feel the need to be ashamed or make amends. Get over it. Yes, British idiots have an advantage over idiots from other countries, so what!
Also, the French are the only ones that make such a big deal of speaking their language. Why? Because they still resent English (actually, american) for taking over from French as the international language. Right now, in a meeting between a German, a Greek, an Argentinian and a Korean they'll be apeaking in English. The French would still like to have them speaking French. IMV the French are rude in being difficult about speaking English (and all i've said has nothing to do with binge drinking, vandalism and other behaviours that seem to be more common with some of the brits)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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i think people get so used to being served by slovenly teenagers in supermarkets in the UK that they are quite taken aback by a friendly shopkeeper who says hello, goodbye and wishes you a good day
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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sugardaddy, that's a quite hilariously colonial perspective there. Everyone should speak English, what what old boy, harrumph.
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Lizzard, I don't think sugardaddy, is being 'colonial' at all. He does mention that English isn't his first language. He is also right in that in international meetings the most used common language is English.
I speak passable French, conversational German and enough Russian to say 'the pen is on the table' (always a good icebreaker ) and while I always try to speak the 'local language' my experience has been that most service industry staff speak my language better than I speak theirs and actually prefer to communicate with me in it.
The global dominance of American culture, and their version of our language means that we Brits can get away with being lazy, language wise, this may not be a good thing, but I wouldn't call it colonialism.
As an aside, most of the service staff I spoke to in Austria last week were not of Austrian or German origin and were more comfortable in English than German.
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You know it makes sense.
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Of course many people speak English - but that doesn't mean it isn't rude just to assume they do, and blurb away without any precursors. And loads and loads of people don't speak English. Yes, in a really mainstream resort, the "customer facing" people will, but anybody who plans to go away from that milieu needs to make an effort. In the last couple of weeks I have spoken to a number of people, important for what I wanted to do, who speak no English. they include a "Saturday changeover cleaner" who was working for one of my neighbours, a man in a garage with whom I needed to discuss a problem with headlights, a man in a shop who was advising me about TVs and my next door restaurant, where I wanted to reserve a table for dinner.
And outside of the "bar in Meribel" scenario it's still just common courtesy to ask "Vous parlez Anglais?" before blurting out your needs. If people then smile and say "un peu" you can then carry on - preferably carefully, avoiding a lot of mumbo jumbo and remembering to congratulate them on their excellent english. Unless they're like an ESF instructor I had a lesson with last year, who spoke superb English but was right up himself and took me down an absurd, steep, draglift track with over a half a metre of powder on then didn't help me when I - as was inevitable - fell over several times. I didn't bother telling him he spoke excellent English; he knew already. 
If you work in an international milieu where everyone speaks english, fair enough - though on the occasions when I have, usually on short trips to the EU in Brussels, I generally asked "do you mind if we speak English" because I knew that all my interlocutors were likely to be fluent in several language, where I was fluent only in one. I did do a working group meeting one time, where the rule was that everyone spoke a language other than their own. I practised an intro in French, explaining that my command of the language was insufficient for discussion of a complex problem and begged the Chairman's indulgence in allowing me to break the rules and speak in English. He was French, and agreed with great charm, no doubt anxious to stop having to listen to me mangling his language. I had been briefed by the UK office to do this, rather than ask in English. It's easy for the native English speaker in this sort of situation to be at a major advantage vis a vis people speaking it as a second - or third - or fourth - language. It does us no harm at all to struggle from time to time.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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BOTHERED?
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Poster: A snowHead
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well I'm bothered if people think I'm being rude or arrogant. But clearly enough of our fellow countrymen aren't for them to have a poor reputation overseas.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm still trying to picture the German in the M&S on Parkgate retail park.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I always attempt to speak the local language. I'm lucky that I speak conversational French and German through having studied abroad. I can get by in Italian, Spanish & Dutch. Picked up a little bit of Welsh in my school days and I can swear in Gaelic (thanks nan!).
I would never greet anyone outside of the UK without a 'hello' in their own language and a 'do you speak English, French or German?'. It's just politeness. To be fair though, in two weeks in Sri Lanka I only learned about five words, what a strange language Sinhalese is!
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pam w, this is just a mass sweeping generalisation. It's the Dutch who are most disliked in the resorts i've been in. Do you honestly think people think you are rude? do you behave in a rude way? no of course not because we're all (probably) polite people. Dont bother trying to change ingrained national stereotypes, The french smell of garlic, Germans don't shave and austrians put their kids in cellars. Is it true? no of course not and no one with any sense thinks so.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have to say the standard of courtesy and respect one finds in Switzerland and Austria is outstanding - They are so tolerant of rudeness (from all nations) and when one does make the effort to try to learn at least the few words of common courtesy as highlighted above by Pam, the welcome could not be warmer.
In France I think they give as good as they get - fair play to them...
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I know a fair amount of German but it is near as useless because there is no getting rid of the heavy Scottish accent. You can get a book with pictures of most items you will ever need, with that and my pointing finger I could get pretty far 
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| Quote: |
If you work in an international milieu
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Which is exactly what most ski resorts are! In most of the resorts I've been to (apart from the really small ones), in the shop/pub/whatever you're more likely to be served by a Brit or Scandie than one of the locals anyway! Locals tend to have better jobs!
Plus it's not just the brits who enjoy drunken foolery on holiday - Scandies, Dutch, Germans, Austrians, French, Bulgarians, Italians, Belgians, Russians, Irish, South African - Ive happily got wasted with all of them in ski resorts!
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| pam w wrote: |
| ...But to do that without saying "bonjour" first, is considered rather rude. And just to talk to someone in a foreign language without asking first whether they speak English is pretty rude... |
Maybe so. But to call a paying customer rude for such a minor dismeanour is surely the preserve of the terminally irritable.
Like it or not, English is the standard language in international resorts. I remember once having to translate English into Spanish for a frustrated Finn in the bar of a Barcelona hotel - he spoke five languages fluently but Spanish wasn't one of the five and, not unreasonably in my opinion, he couldn't understand why the hotel couldn't hire a barman who was able to understand English well enough to take an order for beer.
If you to take cash from foreigners, you sometimes need to make some adjustments.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jonny Jones, hear hear
I'm with you, sugardaddy and Axsman. The French in particular are difficult 'cos they're pissed that the international lingua franca and the language of diplomacy today is English. To be snooty to someone who doesn't try to speak French is unrealistic, unnecessary, counterproductive and plain rude. To be obnoxious to someone who doesn't say 'bonjour' is just puerile. British people who live in France all seem to go native on this but actually, it's pretty simple really. I think your country/bar is worth a visit. I go, you're a pain, I don't go back. You lose visitors/customers and either accept a reduced income or learn the error of your ways. Or the scenery/barmaid is so good I do go back and accept rude service or give in and comply with your terms. Now, no excuse for actual rudeness but the holiday industry is a service industry and imho if they know what's good for them the onus is on the locals not to be obnoxious to paying customers they like to consider rude because said customers don't know the local customs w.r.t. greetings or said customers only speak the standard international medium of communication and not the local patois.
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mr ted, I don't think other Europeans think the British are just rude. I think they also see us as untrustworthy in business, drunken and violent.
Yes, English is the default international language - fact. The question for me is not do I expect English to be spoken in holiday resorts, the question is, when I go to foreign countries, a) do I only want to go to "holiday resorts", or b) actually see and experience some of that country in it's natural state. For many here, they are happy with a). Not for me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Rude people are rude, regardless of what country they come from, or what their hobbies are.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I have to admit I'm a manners snob.
I generally say, for example in Norway, and in Norsk, Hi do you speak english? and when they say "yes" I say "I speak a little norwegian but |I am learning Norweian. Then I try and order in Norwegian. If I get stuck I revert to English. THen thank them for their help.
I always get a good reaction. And I always get a hint of some new Norwegian. In france/Geneva I ask my wife since she speaks good french.
I always find knowing enough to say you will try in their language but that you may revert to English goes a long way.
I was in Berlin giving a talk recently (yes all the way there so people could listen to my thoughts for 20 minutes) and at the Air France desk I asked if he could speak english. And he quite rightly said in english "This is Germany, we speak German here". Now if I wasnt called their at such short notice I would have made the effort to larn a sentence or 2, but in that cisrumstance I just laughed and said. You know, you are absolutely right, I should have made more effort. He was a nice chap an appreciated the honesty/banter.
PS I had my first Supermarket rage today. I reversed a foot (not over one) today with my trolley and some woman (not a lady) barged past shaking her head and grunting. In the next aisle I saw her and said "all you had to say was excuse me". You should never let bad manners go unchallenged. 
Cheers
Bob
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I like languages, but I don't speak any fluently - I have a small amount of French and less German - I call it 'shopping language', numbers, grocery items, good manners terms etc. I'll always have a bash at a phrase and generally finish off the transaction in a mixture of Franglais, germangleterre with plenty of laughter - that seems to get me through without too much offence being caused - I would be stuck in other countries though and would have to resort to a phrase book and 'sign' language. There are times when a little more would be useful, but I do manage to convey the necessary message in English - such as admonishing the lifty who was deep in conversation with her non-uniformed mate outside the lift queue rather than stopping the chair which was gradually demolishing my daughter who had slipped off it  Suffice it to say she 'knew' I wasn't happy with the situation!!
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You know it makes sense.
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I try and speak as much French as possible when we go skiing at La Clusaz. Its not really an international resort, so quite a few of the waiters etc dont speak much English at all. I am not great at French, but can get by if its basic stuff in a cafe or with the ski instructors, if I take a lesson.
It doesn't half make me cringe though, when I hear a group of Brits sit down and not even attempt Bonjour, but say "hi mate". This year, we went out for Pizza one night when teh Chalet staff we off. Went in, ordered our pizza's in French including the 'withouts' (why do they put anchovies on everything  ). Next guy in was from our hotel and spoke only English in the standard Slow And Loud stylee. Poor woman in the shop was stunned and saw the look on my face - we got the 10% locals discount, bet he didnt!
It's basic manners to make an effort. If people can see you trying, they will go out of their way to be helpful. It is just a shame that the average bloke from Britain Wot Won The War thinks that everyone else should change their ways to suit us...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Megamum, Try Japan. The Japanese absolutely love to practice their English and you will have to fight to finish a sentence in errrrm, Japanlgish
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Poster: A snowHead
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The French in particular are difficult 'cos they're pissed that the international lingua franca and the language of diplomacy today is English.
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Oh get lost. You seriously think the average waiter/lifty/cashier/purveyor of beers actually gives a moment's consideration to that sort of stuff? Be real.
I don't see quite where you all get this image of the French as being snooty and obnoxious - I've never had that sort of treatment from them. I have, on the other hand, met plenty of English punters who seem to think that money buys them the right to be ill-mannered.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Lizzard,
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I don't see quite where you all get this image of the French as being snooty and obnoxious - I've never had that sort of treatment from them
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Me neither. But, as someone has already said, bad manners exist amongst all nationalities.
Presumably you don't use phrases like "oh get lost" and "be real" to random French people you happen to meet? I think I might be a bit 'snooty and obnoxious' if someone were to talk to me like that. In fact, I might be tempted to think that you were 'ill mannered', though I would not presume to guess whether you felt that money bought you the right to be so.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, I dont't speak enough French to be quite that sort of acerbic. Unfortunately.
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Lizzard,
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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plenty of English punters who seem to think that money buys them the right to be ill-mannered.
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Nail on head
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IMO its just different rules for different places
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Definitely. Eg:
The Italians have no concept of personal space. This irritates everyone else to death, but it's just their cultural norm - they don't set out to be overbearing.
The Russians tend to be a bit dour, which leads the French, who are generally courteous and jolly, to think they're rude miserable gits. I haven't found the English-speaking ones to be so.
The Dutch don't say please and thank you very much. This used to lead to a bit of friction between them and their English co-workers when I was working in camping, but apparently it's just the way you do things in Dutch.
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[quote="Lizzard"]
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I have, on the other hand, met plenty of English punters who seem to think that money buys them the right to be ill-mannered. |
If it doesn't, I don't know what I've been saving up for all these years for!
There is a point at which people should be grateful to have customers, whether they manage please and thank you and everything else. If somebody in a shop gets funny because I walk in and ask for something without "Bonjour" at the start (as suggested earlier in the thread) then frankly I'll spend my money somewhere else. I did a degree in French, and frankly anybody that has French as their first language would have me picked out as English (or at least not originally French) so should appreciate I am talking in a foreign language, and probably doing a decent job of it!
I've worked with a lot of people who have English as a second language, you have to accept that sometimes they will say things that seem very direct, or miss the subtle social signals that come with any language. That's just how it works, and everybody has to be tolerant of that or we'd all end up arguing over nothing.
Personally, if it's a choice between skiers being arrogant or having to share a resort with the pikey chavs that I have to tolerate on a day trip to Watford, I'll take the arrogance thanks
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
mr ted, I think one reason is that some Brits abroad don't take the trouble to learn about local customs/politeness. For example, in France, they will walk into a bar and order "two beers please" or even "deux bieres, s'il vous plait".
But to do that without saying "bonjour" first, is considered rather rude. And just to talk to someone in a foreign language without asking first whether they speak English is pretty rude - imagine a German marching into Marks and Spencers in Rotherham and asking - politely - for what they want, in German. You would expect them to be able to say (in English) "Excuse me, but do you speak German?" first.
In a busy bar in a big resort full of Brits you hardly need to ask, obviously, they'll all speak English. (But you must still definitely say "bonjour"). But a bit off the beaten track (buying fuel, for example, or if you have to ask the way somewhere) then it's definitely extremely rude just to march in speaking English. I was in our Tourist Office once when two middle-aged English women marched in and said "Where's the nail bar?" they didn't say bonjour, or even good morning. They didn't mean to be rude, they were just thoughtless and ignorant.
In fact, it's definitely rather rude to go to a country without having made any effort at all to speak a few basic phrases of their language. The effort will be all the more appreciated in more obscure places - my daughter learnt a bit of Arabic (which she found very hard) before a windsurfing holiday in Egypt and was greeted with enormous friendliness and appreciation when she tried, even though she could only say about 3 things. |
If it weren't for the Americans, British, Russians and others, all French tourism workers would now be speaking German.
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Whitegold, oh, drag yourself out of the 1940s will you, FFS. 
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FAQ
and heart attacks at the wheel in the UK are treated as perfectly normal in other places 