 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bloody Hell Sasquatch (Sp?). It might be easier to take a hammer and chisel to your feet. Seriously though good luck. After speding the fat end of £300 on my boots I wouldn't attempt diy 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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the biggest problem with trying to get a specific point stretch like you need is that with all the padding on your foot the foot will just get crushed in the shell... it is fine for an all over little bit of a stretch, but for something as big and specific as you need then the only way is to get the shell real hot, sounds like you were close but then you need to put a press in the boot and over stress the area until you get the desired shape... sounds liek teh shop which stretched then either didn't get the boot hot enough or let it cool fully to retain the stretch
as to how hot to get them, a finger print on the out side, too hot on the inside to tough sounds about right but it is a matter of experience and practice, differnt plastics all heat differently a race boot will take a long time and a low spec boot will heat much quicker the boot you are in Head S series should heat pretty well and with the right tools can be made 20mm wider with little effort
the wooden form may work but will take a bit of time and effort to make and a good boot fitter should have a rack of specifically made bits for the purpose
the other thing i would do is stretch the liner or cut some slashes in it to release the surface tension, the Head liner is great but it is pretty firm material and it could be that which is stopping the expansion of the shell with the methods which you are using
good luck
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CEM, thanks for your tip.
Slashing the liner is something I hadn't thought about. Would you recommend lines of slashes or criss-cross slashes? How deep should I slash? I presume, I should just the outer layer of the liner without going into the soft bit inside?
Also any guidance on the temperature of the heat gun and how far it should be from the plastic?
Thanks for the tips!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm looking forward to the photo story for attempt #2.
Can we get lots of photos of the nice doctors, nurses, HAs and receptionist at A&E please 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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i would make 4 or 5 vertical slashes but only through the outer material of the liner...be very careful and use a sharp scalpel blade, as for how close to get the heat gun, i normally work anything from 3" to 10" form the boot depending on the plastic and what i need to do
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I hate to throw a wrench into the works but frankly you would be better paying CEM or another master boot fitter to stretch your boots. They are trained, unlike many to make these type of adjustments and will stand behind their work! If I know really good bootfitters they dont quit until they get it right and until you are happy!!
The key problem you are gonna face is the fact that the forefoot dimensions appear so wide that realistically you are going to warp the shell if you try to spot stretch it. This will affect binding function and potentially alter the lateral alignment of the foot (which will cause another problem). Also you are trying to stretch a recycled TPE this material has a much higher elastic memory because of the impurities that it contains. Most recyled plastic will require a stretch temp of around 300 degrees farenheit to much and you melt the shell and too little and you are gonna have a stretch that will receed. Also boots should be stretched on a boot board to ensure that any potential of warpage is at a minimum
What shell size do you take and what is the width of your foot at it widest point?
further more if you try to use the foot as the mechanoism to stretch a TPU/TPE shell then you are never gonna get the permanent stretch you require! The soft tissue of the foot will compress and what you will be left with is a shell no more wider than before(as you have seen already). More than likely you are going to shallow the instep volume as you are robbing peter to borrow paul with material.....
Dont give up hope on having a comfortable boot for a wide foot and for that matter a boot that is well suited to even the very best skier. They are out there and will come with manufacturer indemnification even when altered.....which by the way is void the instant that you take a heat gun to your shell.
And if the guys in london stretched your boot and it was still incredibly painfull then it wasnt done correctly or to the correct boot....
It is also worth noting that stretching is only half the deal bro. There is grinding and stretching and the introduction of a performance liner like Zipfit or foam liners. A great bootfitter will use all of these to ensure that you are happy man.
Best of luck to you I do respect your determination and wish you the best of luck......a boot fitter in the making 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Booty, I see you are in the Netherlands, but you said you tried getting your boots fitted in London. I also had some (touring) boots stretched (and a footbed made) at a well-recommended place in London - which resulted in neural pain in the foot and further aggravated the Tailor's bunion that was developing. Went then to CEM and within half an hour had the best-fitting boots I've ever had. I also had a similar kind of story with a subsequent pair of boots - also Head S series. I had to get them elsewhere as CEM didn't have any in stock; the reasonably respected fitter failer to get them right after several hours so I again gave up and went back to CEM, who got them dead right in half an hour. Colin really knows what he's doing.
So, top tip, if it is at all possible for you to get to Bicester, do so and get CEM to sort you.
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CEM, thanks for your tips about vertical slashes in the liner - I'll give that a go.
ski4life, thanks for the health warnings. I'll bear them in mind and if my DIY attempts start causing other problems, I'll get a new pair of boots and seek professional help. For your info, the boots are 27.0 and the shell size is 317mm. I've written down the dimensions of my foot and boots at the bottom of this post.
ski4life, GrahamN, you're right that it'd be much more preferable to ask a boot fitter but I've been somewhat disappointed so far. Here's my story with my Head S series so far: I bought them at a reputable London-based boot fitter shop but even after two sessions, they were too tight. Then I had them stretched at a shop in Meribel (twice). Still too tight. Once more in St Anton. Still too tight and now developed a painful spot on the inner ankle bone... I bought some touring boots this season and after two fitting sessions, I'm still not happy with the width. I seem to be one of those nightmare customers that keep coming back and boot fitters are happy to see the back of me. After all, it is a business they're running... Boot fitting has been nothing but disappointments for me and that's why I've taken things into my own hands. If I can find a boot fitter who can magically make my boots comfortable, he/she will have me as a customer for life.
If all my dodgy DIY attempts fail, I may visit CEM in Bicester - he seems to know his stuff. And as ski4life says, there's probably a world of difference between Master boot fitters and some geezer in a shop so I may be being too harsh on the real boot fitters.
So the continuing saga of the DIY boot fitting:
Attempt #2
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As mentioned earlier, I set off to build a wooden form of part of my footprint and considered various ways of adjusting the length of this contraption. The top drawing shows a wooden footprint cut out that splits in half and you can put in wedges of various thicknesses. The middle concept has a screw to adjust the length and the bottom drawing is an asymmetric mini car jack.
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After some fiddling around it turned out that it wasn't easy to do precision moulding to follow the shape of my feet. It's a very rough botch job we're talking about. Eventually I (with lots of help from my girlfriend's dad and his power tools) went for the very crude solution of a wooden block rounded at either ends.
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We got the wooden bar into place with one of us pulling the two tabs of the boot apart and other wedging the wooden bar in. Using a heat gun at 270 C and working it at about 1 inch away, we heated the plastic until it felt hot on the inside and we could leave nail marks on the heated outer shell. We then left it to cool with the wooden bar in.
Results:
With this wedging-the-wooden-bar method, the most you could stretch each time was about 2-3mm. For the next round, you'd have to cut out another piece of wood. With a tool like the Jam Spreader, you're supposed to push out the shell once the plastic is soft by turning the screw. With our wedge method, we can only stretch by 2-3mm at a time. So this method will work if you only need a tiny stretch of around 2mm. I'll need a contraption that I can stretch the boot once it's in the boot and the plastic is malleable.
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I may look into getting a Jam Spreader if it's affordable or an ordinary leather boot stretcher from shoecaresupplies.com:
The problem with this contraption is that the two halves of the wooden spreader open by being wedged open so the pressure point doesn't move directly outwards but outwards and towards the heel... It'll also need some bits added to the side to make it wide enough for stretching ski boots.
Question: Does anyone have any ingenious ideas for everyday tools that can be adopted for ski boot stretching?
My foot again
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The numbers:
During the experiments, I took some measurement of my feet and the boots. What surprised me was that the outer shell of boots were as wide as my feet with socks and the inliner. Even allowing for compression of the liner and my feet, that suggested to me that the boots needed to be stretched by at least 4-5mm? No boot fitter so far had taken a set of callipers to my feet an boot. Surely this would give you a better target for stretching than just trial and error?
Widths of left boot/foot (soft-tissue measurement is probably only accurate to 1-2mm, if that):
Boot without the foot in: 117mm
Boot without the foot in (after stretch): 118.5mm
Boot with the foot in: 118mm
Foot + socks + liner (unweighted): 117mm
I estimate that the shell is around 4-5mm thick so the shell is probably squeezing my foot and the liner by around 8-10mm. Of course, some of this is normal compression (around a half?).
Foot + socks (unweighted): 97.5mm
Foot + socks (weighted): 110mm
Foot + socks on custom comformable footbeds (weighted): 108mm
Foot + socks on Superfeet Green (weighted): 107mm
NB: Judging by the relative pain I feel in my boots, my right foot is probably wider.
I'm surprised how much the foot pronates under weight! As advertised by the manufacturers, footbeds do seem to reduce overpronation but they do also take up volume in the forefoot. So as an additional measure, we unscrewed the boot board and shaved off 2mm at the front to give my forefeet more room.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Atomic do boots with a 104mm last. I've got very wide feet and they just about get round mine. You wouldn't be going nearly as far on stretching with something like that. You should be able to pick some up for cheapish money secondhand, and then you can test your boot stretching methods. I got mine for £90 brand new, so there should be some bargains around.
Once you've worked out how to do this properly on some old/knackered boots, then do it on your proper expensive boots.
Just my 2p, but I'd rather test it on an ebay £20 boot than on my relatively new manufacturers warranty boots.
I'd also remember that plastics aren't infinitely heatable and malleable. If you continue you may find that you take the boot beyond the point that a professional boot fitter can help you.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sorry, looking at the above numbers you may already be in a wide boot. Can't see the model etc to check, but from the measurements it seems about as wide as the Atomics I'm in.
The shell won't be 4-5mm thick. Not by a mile. Way thinner than that. Measure it at the cuff, should give you an idea of how thick the material is, I'd expect 2-3mm at most.
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| Monium wrote: |
The shell won't be 4-5mm thick. Not by a mile. Way thinner than that. Measure it at the cuff, should give you an idea of how thick the material is, I'd expect 2-3mm at most. |
2-3mm would make a very flexible boot....... i have a cut away of the same boot sat onmy desk, i have just put a verniers gauge across the plastic.... and on the inner edge a few mm behind the front clip and level with the mid line of where the foot would be top to bottom in the shell the plastic measures 6.3mm
the boot is a Head S series and is a 103mm last,(approx 107mm in a size 27) it is about as wide as it gets in terms of performance boots, sure there is the B120 form atomic but it is about the only other performance boot out ther with a wide fit
Booty
the problem with your block is that when you stretch a boot you either have to deform the pastic beyond its elastic memory (a true boot stretch) or borrow it from the surrounding area (the more common type of stretch)
when you borrow plastic to make width then you generally loose height!!!! also look at the thickness of the block looks to be 18mm ply to me, your foot + the liner will be thicker than that therefore you probably wont get the best success from stretching the boot this way as you cannot fit your foot and the liner into the stretch you make.. the heads on our comercial stretchers run from about 25-40mm depending on what area they are designed for, and we have one beast which wills the whole toe box in width and height
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You know it makes sense.
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Hey Booty, Sounds like your the stretch is recceeding to me a typical problrm with recycled plastic when they are not heated within an inch of there life. Some advise if I may? Obey the law of oposites my friend. your comment that you developed medial ankle problems after having the boot stretched suggests (Assuming the stretching was performed to the outside or lateral aspect of the shell) that the foot has abducted in the shell. If I were gonna atempt this i would add a few mm to the medial side and a few to the lateral side this should maintain the intended position of the foot internally. If the stretching is all performed to just the outside it will harder to achieve all the required stretch......subsequent ot this I would check orthotic function as in some cases the addition of a rearfoot varus posting is required to stop the medial maleolous from everting into the medial aspect of the shell and the upper cuff alignment should also be checked to ensure that the reputable bootfitter aligned it properly...
gotta say like the approach your taking makes for a good thread
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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CEM, ski4life, Monium; thanks for your thoughts.
As CEM points out, losing height from the boots is a worry because volume is an issue for my feet. Perhaps DIY boot stretching is a doomed project that comes with a stern don't-do-this-at-home health warning. So I may pop round to CEM's workshop after the season to have the boot stretched properly and professionally.
Q. If I developed medial ankle pain over the years, does that mean that the boot has gone wonky and I need to start with a new pair of boots or can the old boot be worked into shape?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Booty, it was mentioned by ski4life about the rule of oposites, tha ankle pain could be the boot, it could be the footbed not supporting you enough of it coulf be that tyou foot is being contorted a bit by the lack of width
if the foot pronates and hits the inside ankle it may abduct further into the outside of the shell at the forefoot
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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CEM, ski4life - thanks so much for your input. So the medial ankle pain and the width on the lateral side of the forefoot could be related? If I understand you correctly, attempting to fix one problem could be making the other problem worse...
Should I start with a clean slate and get new boots and foot beds fitted or can the boot be still salvaged? Apart from the discomfort, I really do like the Head S8 as a ski boot so I would prefer to hold on to them if at all possible.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Booty, Generalization and simplification but... As the foot pronates the medial aspect of the ankle and mid foot moves further medially and lower, the forefoot swings laterally. The foot also effectively lengthens and widens as this happens. The amount of change varies according to the foot and both feet on the same person can be significantly different ( I even have patients who excessively pronate on one foot and supinate, the opposite of pronate, on the other). Controlling the amount of pronation reduces this, however some pronation is necessary for normal ankle flex to be possible. Excessive (and this varies) Pronation can be caused by poor or abnormal foot mechanics in the rear, mid or forefoot or a combination, and as a result of inherited bone structure, injury, hypermobility etc, as such the methodology of treatment and type of footbed / orthotic is varied. If you are an uncontrolled pronator clipping up your boots will probably force you further into pronation with much the same symptoms as you have described!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Booty, boot may well be fine, but no one can tell you that without seeing it
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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From personal experience the boots are not the starting point.
My right foot was that sort of shape where the arch had dropped - my left foot was fine. I am no expert (unlike anarchicsaltire above) but a daily exercise routine brought my foot back to a normal shape in only a few weeks. Helped with back and knee pain too.
Worked for me although the general opinion is that you need support to correct the problem.
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Thanks everyone!
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landmannn what sort of exercises were you doing that were able to change the shape of your foot?
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