 Poster: A snowHead
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stoatsbrother,
Noted, but there is a chain of responsibility, and you can't (at least under UK legislation, which is what the contract would have been in) contract out of legal H&S duties
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sev -I raised this issue of the possibly illegal coach driving earlier in the thread.
Maybe Ski Beat don't want to reply to this point as they don't want to admit there were any irregularities for fear of being sued. If all was above board they would be better off saying so on here.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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snowymum,
sorry, forgive me, it's rather a long thread now
I think they are replying on the basis of teh snow/travel hoping you'll foget about the coach etc issues
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| sev112 wrote: |
stoatsbrother,
Noted, but there is a chain of responsibility, and you can't (at least under UK legislation, which is what the contract would have been in) contract out of legal H&S duties |
But that is civil liability, rather different from them breaking the law.
If any laws were broken, it would have been the coach driver, and possibly his direct employer who would have been breaking them, and who would have been prosecuted if it came to the attention of the authorities.
But if anybody had suffered harm as a result of those laws being broken, then SB would have had civil liability for that harm, and would have been the ones to be sued (although they could in turn have sued the company they contracted the service from).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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alex_heney,
Almost , but 2 other things also relevant - (1) the legislative basis is often different outside UK, which (as i understand) is why lots of people are being prosecutued in Corfu at the moment because of that terrible carbon monoxide poisening case where the kids died. They are going after individual TO managers. Secondly breaking of a criminal law (such as UK H&S Legilsation) usually leads to (and makes it easier) to make a civil case succcessful as well.
Now i dont think any company would appreciate the threat of any sort of H&S intervention by the authorities on their books - does not sit well with future business generation
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
rayscoops,
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once the 'gloves are off' there is no turning back and everything has to be strictly by the book
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 That would imply that there are never any out-of-court settlements
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It does not imply anything, and in this specific case there has not been a court case. there is nothing to settle and my point is that there is no need to offer anything before due process has taken place or even initiated
edited for clarity
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rayscoops, I agree there is no need. My point concerned what might be advisable in order to reach the optimum result for all parties. But then I am/was neither a litigator nor a litigious person.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 14-02-10 12:32; edited 1 time in total
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Hurtle, -1 pedant point. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Normally I wouldn't join in such a thread, but his has been bugging me a bit.
<quote>
We arrive at Milan at 3.30pm. After what seems like an age waiting for our bags (we are relieved all of our bags arrive,) we leave the baggage hall, passing reps with placards for Crystal, Ski Esprit, Total Ski, and some others I can’t remember. They are calling over their holiday makers and directing them to their buses. There is a noticeable absence of Ski Beat reps. There is a man in the airport who is on holiday but who once worked for Ski Beat. He tells us to sit tight, they are coming for us. The Titan bus rep tells us to get on the bus to Chambery or we will be stranded in Milan. We take a leap of faith and stay in Milan.
4 hours later a bus arrives with 2 Ski Beat reps on it.
</quote>
I think it's been stated before that it's the airline's resposibility to get you to your stated destination. A bit like being entitled to a taxi if the last train service of the night doesn't get to your stop. the Titan rep clearly stated 'Get on that coach or get stranded in Milan'.
The four hours would seem to be the time it takes to get from Chambery to Milan by road.
The OP would seem to have taken the advice of someone with whom they had no direct connection in preference to that of someone who was contractually obliged to them would seem to have some bearing on later events.
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laundryman, oops, typo/hangover from something else I had in mind. Now corrected. Homer, by the way, did not expect his spelling errors to be corrected. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Hurtle, I'm sure that made him very cross with Lisa. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle - fixed it for you
| Hurtle wrote: |
| rayscoops, I agree there is no need. My point concerned what might have been advisable before the opening post in order to reach the optimum result for all parties. But then I am/was neither a litigator nor a litigious person. |
Skibeat have nothing to gain by following your suggestion now, but they would have had before the internet campaign against them. No problem with what you suggest, just the tinming of it
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You know it makes sense.
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rayscoops, I strongly disagree, Ski Beat needs to get itself on the front foot with the public again and it won't do that by simply digging its heels in. We'll probably have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hurtle, the public at large have no clue all this is going on. Ski Beat may take the view that they need to improve their image with a bunch of internet nerds such as ourselves but I highly doubt it will make much difference to their bottom line
and for some reason i have a grudging respect for the way they handled this
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Poster: A snowHead
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If I were Ski Beat, and I thought there was sufficient evidence that the rep lost his rag in the manner described, I'd fire him. I'm sure he'd had a helluva day and many people would react in the same way under pressure, but then they shouldn't be in customer-facing roles. Then I'd write to the aggrieved parties showing how seriously we take complaints and offer a small sum in compensation without accepting any liability.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Arno, you could be right, not sure how much the general public gets to know. I don't think their letter is brilliant: I think they could have addressed at least some of my suggested points and, if not and/or for the rest, expressly hidden behind legal advice received. In particular, like laundryman, I think it would have been a good idea to make some sort of ex gratie offer.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Arno wrote: |
Hurtle, the public at large have no clue all this is going on. Ski Beat may take the view that they need to improve their image with a bunch of internet nerds such as ourselves but I highly doubt it will make much difference to their bottom line
and for some reason i have a grudging respect for the way they handled this |
Yes, absolutely, there will have been no effect on their bottom line and there won't be next year either. Their returning customers will have their own experience to fall back on, they will continue to recommend to friends etc and the vast majority of people booking with SB for the first time will have no clue (or care) about this issue. Historically the UK's tour ops have had a % of unhappy customers - it's the nature of the beast. Some get sorted out satisfactorily and others don't but they continue just fine as businesses. Smaller owner operated TOs like SB are bound to say up yours to people who go to lengths to ruin their reputation - I would. We don't know what really happened that day - all we've had so far are histrionics from one side and silence from the other. It's an object lesson in how to talk yourself into a stalemate.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Bode Swiller,
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We don't know what really happened that day - all we've had so far are histrionics from one side and silence from the other.
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Agreed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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So glad I didn't book with Ski beat for Val d'Isere this Easter. On advice of someone who used to work for them on ifyouski.com, we're going with Total instead (and better chalet and cheaper!).
I was one of those caught that w/e flying back via Chambery, which was closed and our Gatwick flight diverted to Milan. Horrible 14 hr journey but nothing compared to above. Our TO Leski was ok - came with us to Milan, handed out light refreshments but that was all. Was kind of expecting an emailed apology but nothing. It costs nothing to commiserate and demonstrate concern for client well being.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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forwood, do you write to your tour op and thank them when the weather is fantastic? Thought not.
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Snow Joke, how do you know there would have been no one there ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I may have missed this but didn't Ski Beat ask for clients' mobile numbers when they booked? Often small companies do this and ring/text you with any sudden changes or just to say, "Bus is here, where are you?" Or did they have them but not bother to use them?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I too am confused by this, not the coach bit, the whole thing. It's like an interweb version of shouting into the Marabar Caves.
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Boredsurfing, and they did so on the basis of this
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| There is a man in the airport who is on holiday but who once worked for Ski Beat. He tells us to sit tight, they are coming for us. The Titan bus rep tells us to get on the bus to Chambery or we will be stranded in Milan. We take a leap of faith and stay in Milan. |
So a rep tells them to get to Chambery in the waiting bus but a man who has no (legal) assocation with SB (other than he allegedly worked for them) tells them not to go to Chambery and they don't? While communcation may not have been the best I bet SB were waiting at Chambery and had agreed with Titan to take them down to Chambery, when SB realised they hadn't got on the bus they then had to arrange a seperate bus to Milan?
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You know it makes sense.
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Boredsurfing, i thnk this bit:
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| The Titan bus rep tells us to get on the bus to Chambery or we will be stranded in Milan. We take a leap of faith and stay in Milan. 4 hours later a bus arrives with 2 Ski Beat reps on it. |
says it all really. They were clearly told what to do next. A "leap of faith" doesn't normally involve doing nothing. I think 94.6% of us would have got on that bus.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Bode Swiller, You follow the rep, isn't that why you go with a TO? Its all their problem if you are with them?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| snowymum wrote: |
Sev -I raised this issue of the possibly illegal coach driving earlier in the thread.
Maybe Ski Beat don't want to reply to this point as they don't want to admit there were any irregularities for fear of being sued. If all was above board they would be better off saying so on here. |
Easy to prove either way, the Driver would be driving on a Tachograph.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Mornington Crescent.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| thefatcontroller wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, You follow the rep, isn't that why you go with a TO? Its all their problem if you are with them? |
Well, I don't use TOs which means that, if I have a problem, I'm on my own but at least I know I have to take some action and not rely on anyone else. In their situation it sounds like they had no idea of geography and somehow expected a Ski Beat bus to teleport itself (with a fresh driver and smiley reps) in nanoseconds.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
the Driver would be driving on a Tachograph
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And another problem... how do you get guacamole and salsa stains out of the seats?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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chrisdavis, Is it summer, am I missing something?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Spyderman wrote: |
| snowymum wrote: |
Sev -I raised this issue of the possibly illegal coach driving earlier in the thread.
Maybe Ski Beat don't want to reply to this point as they don't want to admit there were any irregularities for fear of being sued. If all was above board they would be better off saying so on here. |
Easy to prove either way, the Driver would be driving on a Tachograph. |
Lovely idea, but the door is open, and the horse has well and truly bolted. Unless somebody can remember the registration number, knows the name of the driver, or that was the only guy on duty that day, you'll struggle to get any hint of a tacho - it's way too easy to cover up even if you've got that info. The tacho is a nice idea, and works with on the spot checks by officials, but once a few days have passed it's easy to cheat the system. I've seen it done. The new digital tachos harder to cheat, but there are still ways to get around them if you're determined to cheat the system or have been caught with your pants down (like in this case)
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The reason we did not get on the bus to Chambery is because at Gatwick the Titan staff told us that Ski Beat had informed them that Ski Beat had arranged for a bus to meet us at Milan to take us direct to Plan Peisey. They were extremely explicit about the fact that there were holiday makers from several companies on the flight and also a number of people who had booked flight only. The Titan staff were telling each group of travellers what their bussing arangements would be at the other end. We were told that there would be bus which had been arranged to take us direct to resort. The independent travellers were told that there would be a bus to take them to Chambery where they would be able to catch up with their travel plans. The Titan bus rep in Milan had a clipboard with the names of all the people who should be on her bus. Our names were not on it. She was not sure whether this was because we shouldn't be on her bus or because of a mis-communication. So it's all back down to the 'lack of information' situation again. A couple of Ski Beat holiday makers DID get on the Titan bus. As far as we know there was noone to meet them at Chambery. At the time we opted to wait we had been told that there was definitely a bus to take us to Plan Peisey. We were told this by the Titan reps in Gatwick at 10.30am, and were told this by yes, a random stranger who claimed to have been a previous Ski Beat rep who was on his holiday with them and was apparently in contact with former work colleagues. The Milan Titan bus rep seemed even more confused than we were.
We tried to telephone Ski Beat on the phone numbers that we had on our booking confirmation and travel documents. The office was closed and had a generic answerphone message, in our chalet there was noone answering the phone, and in one of the other chalets the chalet staff told their holiday makers that there was a bus on the way to Milan and guests were expected in resort at 1am, but that they were just the chalet staff and didn't know anything more than that.
What a lot of Chinese Whispers, but actual solid information to go on at any point.
Another intriguing thing is that we were told by Titan at 10am that a coach was on it's was to collect us from Milan. We left the baggage hall at 3.30pm, and the bus arrived at 9pm. Even accounting for the time zone difference, it was still 10 hours from when WE found out we were going to Milan before the bus eventually turned up.
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pandora, I thought there was two buses, did one leave Milan earlier than the second one; there was something in a previous post about two buses and you being asked to go to a bus which was not there ?
I does not sound good though 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
it sounds like they had no idea of geography
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God help you, Bode Swiller, if you ever end up on my aeroplane!
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You follow the rep, isn't that why you go with a TO? Its all their problem if you are with them?
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Yes - foolishly I had assumed that we were on holiday with Ski Beat, and that Titan was just the airline. As we had been told by Titan staff in Gatwick that once we were in Milan we would be back under the responsibility of Ski Beat, we took the desicion to wait for the Ski Beat rep that we had been told would meet us in Milan. The Titan rep was a slightly confused, rushing around Italian lady who was an employee of the bus company Titan had employed to transfer it's own flight-only passengers to Chambery, but had no idea who Ski Beat were.
As I have stated before, just one person from Ski Beat at the end of a phone line could have saved us all this hassle.
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pandora, I thought there was two buses, did one leave Milan earlier than the second one; there was something in a previous post about two buses and you being asked to go to a bus which was not there ?
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Yes. We were told by the first rep who arrived to get on this bus, but when we went to that bus and tried to get on, Shouty Rep No1 told us that this was not our bus, ours would be there in 20 minutes. This was at about 7pm. Then Shouty Rep No1 disappeared for 2 hours, and although we searched the airport for him he had got himself well and truly hidden under a little rock somewhere. He later claimed there was no point in him hanging around as he would not have been able to tell us anything due to his phone battery being dead. The suggestion that he could have first of all reassured us that his company DID have a plan, and then used a payphone to find out the score was met with a sulky silence. This was not a boy just out of school btw. This rep was in his 40s.
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FAQ
