 Poster: A snowHead
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... specifically request a 'native English speaker' when arranging private lessons with a ski school?
I'm off to Zell am See in a couple of weeks and am in the process of firing some emails off to the local ski schools. Based on my previous (rather mixed) experience with instructors, it seems that you gets a lot more done/achieved with someone whose first language is the same as your own, so I was going to request a 'native English speaking instructor'.
But is it rude to do this? Will ski schools take umbrage over me basically not wanting to use their own country-men/women?
Or, am I just worrying over nothing?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't think it's rude. Customer is king, and all that. It's a perfectly reasonable request to ask for an instructor who has enough language skills to teach - the more able the skier the more I think there's a need for high level language skills to convey complexity and subtlety. If the only way to guarantee this is to ask for a native English speaker I don't see that as rude, just sensible.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've always found that Austrian instructors speak impressively good English. Isn't it part of the experience to learn from someone who may have grown up on the very mountains you're skiing on?
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| Ernst Goldsmith wrote: |
| Isn't it part of the experience to learn from someone who may have grown up on the very mountains you're skiing on? |
Not a significant part of the experience, if at all, in my opinion. Back when I used to have ESF lessons it was always entertaining to have so many 'mountain stories' and the local instructors obviously had a great passion for 'their' mountains. They did bugger all teaching unfortunately, so I gave up taking lessons as it seemed utterly pointless.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ernst Goldsmith, Not really, the experience you are paying lots of hard earned money for is, primarily, to learn to ski. I would rather have someone who knows the place very well but speaks perfect English. An instructor who looks good on his home mountain but speaks, at best, a garbled mixture of English and something else is no good to anybody, more so if it's kids that are in for the lessons.
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rob, that strikes me as mildly xenophobic. Is there any evidence that British instructors are more dedicated to teaching than any other nation's instructors?
By evidence I mean .... results!
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| Ernst Goldsmith wrote: |
rob, that strikes me as mildly xenophobic. Is there any evidence that British instructors are more dedicated to teaching than any other nation's instructors?
By evidence I mean .... results! |
Evidence? No idea, I've never bothered to look. I offered my experience (and I guess I've had more instruction than most people on this forum). Take it or leave it.
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Ernst Goldsmith, Might one make a case that the hurdles which have historically been placed in the way of UK instructors mean that they required more determination, and then more commitment from customers to make the grade and make it pay?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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stoatsbrother, I think at the individual level the hurdles, in France at least, are not so much to keep the British out but to keep out but to keep out the non-locals. It's probably more to keep the Parisians out than foreigners. IAt the ski school level the hurdles, which keep changing, tend to favour the ESF and no other school, regardless of whether it's a British school or a small, independent French school.
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There's no question that the best technical instruction I've had in skiing was from Ali Ross, and the best my wife had was from Sue Dickson (formerly Sue Baxter, Alain's mum). Both these people were elite BASI trainers.
I think abj has every right to request a native English speaker in an Austrian ski school. But if the goal really is learning to ski from a British ski instructor I'd look elsewhere at the many ski schools run in the Alps by these people.
Zell am See is a rich experience in terms of being immersed in Austrian landscape and people. I'd rather be taught by an Austrian there. My last instruction was in St Anton, from one of the locals who was very proud of his huge 'farmer's hands'. He thought my English 'typing hands' were pathetic!
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 12-01-10 15:44; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Ernst Goldsmith wrote: |
| There's no question that the best technical instruction I've had in skiing was from Ali Ross, and the best my wife had was from Sue Dickson (nee Sue Baxter, Alain's mum). Both these people were elite BASI trainers. |
Don't be so xenophobic!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think younger teachers are more likely to be interested in the ski teaching than are the old buffers who have seen it all, are bored, and are waiting for retirement (that they cannot afford).
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| Quote: |
Isn't it part of the experience to learn from someone who may have grown up on the very mountains you're skiing on?
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Ernst Goldsmith, I know exactly where you're coming from. But, personally, I have only one goal when it comes to lessons/instruction, and that is to improve!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Ernst Goldsmith wrote: |
| rob, that strikes me as mildly xenophobic. Is there any evidence that British instructors are more dedicated to teaching than any other nation's instructors? |
I don't think there is the slightest bit of xenophobia in these comments.
If you only speak English and are paying for private lessons, what is the point in getting an instructor(regardless of qualifications and experience) who you cannot understand, is a lot of ski instruction not communicated by the method of speach? how is a (e.g) Spanish speaking instructor going to instruct an English speaking client?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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I totally agree that native English speakers can be invaluable to some people (but not all) when learning. Some of my most beneficial lessons have come from either British or Canadian instructors. I think it depends if you are a "technical" learner or more of a copy and see what happens type.
I much prefer the detailed explanations of movements, feelings, balance etc that are much easier for a native speaker to get across to you and have a conversation about what you might be doing wrong.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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quite the contrary, many schools (yes even the ESF) go to some lenghs to employ instructors who speak various languages, simply to fulfil these sort of requests. but they won't keep employing that swahili-speaker if no-one asks for him
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My brother for speaks fluent German. Most Germans he meets don't realise he isn't German. Would it be right to discriminate against him because German wasn't his first language.
Do you want someone who is a "native English speaker" or someone who is "fluent in English". I'd say one is xenophobic while the other is reasonable and understandable.
Of course you could just argue that if it wasn't for us, all those Frogs would be speaking German, so the least they can do is learn a bit of English! 
adrian
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| Quote: |
Do you want someone who is a "native English speaker" or someone who is "fluent in English".
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Either would fine.
The problem is that in the past I have been given instructors that are supposedly "fluent" - but they end-up not speaking particularly good English.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| abj wrote: |
| The problem is that in the past I have been given instructors that are supposedly "fluent" - but they end-up not speaking particularly good English. |
I agree. I think "fluent" can be a bit of a subjective term, whereas native should be unambiguous.
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| Quote: |
'native English speaker'
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I think that unless you are going skiing in a country where the native language is English then it is rude to request a "native" English speaker. Perfectly reasonable to ask for someone whose English is excellent though.
That's my view.
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If its considered rude who cares your money is paying their wages
It also increases the demand for English instructors so hopefully in a couple of years when I say to a foriegn ski school "gis a job" I would be snapped up so they can pay me more money
Also in the job as currently part time on a dry slope I frequently keep reports of how bad some French instructors are at teaching (not going to mention the French national ski school but those who know already know). True they are excellent skiiers, as most ex or failed racers are but as they normally are different learners ie feelers, their instructing lacks a passion as they have no other trade to go into. Whereas most British instructors learn their trade because they wanted to instruct.
Prob get shot down in flames for saying that but take it as a generalisation and is not true in all cases
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| cp1000 wrote: |
| Quote: |
'native English speaker'
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I think that unless you are going skiing in a country where the native language is English then it is rude to request a "native" English speaker. Perfectly reasonable to ask for someone whose English is excellent though.
That's my view. |
I agree with this in theorym but have to say in my own (rather limited) experience of ski schools they will always claim that you will be provided with an instructor who speaks fluent English, but the term fluent is used somewhat loosely! Your then stuck with either accepting that you will get substandard teacing, or having to try to get a different instructor which would be incredibly awkward! By asking for a native English speaker you would avoid this! Having said all that, native English speakers are going to be fairly uncommon, and I would just ask in particular for someone who speaks excellent English.
Slightly off topic but a friend on a trip in France ended up with a French native who spoke reasonable English, but in a group with both french and british pupils.... that was a nightmare, instructor spent 90% off his time speaking french by all accounts!
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Slight off topic: I somehow ended up in an all-French group(except me and an English guy who, unlike me, could speak French) for my UCPA lesson a few weeks ago. Even though I learned a lot that week, got to say it´s a frustrating experience for both me and the instructor (and I couldn´t understand any of the extra conversation in the class during the entire week)
I guess if I´m booking lessons outside UCPA, I´ll definitely ask for English-speaking groups (for group lessons) or English-speaking instructor (for private lessons)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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As you can see DB's post, we have used Les in Zell and have been very impressed. I've also recommended him to other  s and had great reports. He's Scottish but lives in the US and Austria alternately. Has been teaching in Zell for the last 3 years.
If you're interested, let me know and I will pm you his mobile number.
Caveat to the above, as Zell is a fairly mainstream type of resort, the level of English spoken there is usually very good, and there are a lot of Dutch and Scandanvian instructors who also have excellent English.
Ta
D
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| SkiG wrote: |
| cp1000 wrote: |
| Quote: |
'native English speaker'
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I think that unless you are going skiing in a country where the native language is English then it is rude to request a "native" English speaker. Perfectly reasonable to ask for someone whose English is excellent though.
That's my view. |
I agree with this in theorym but have to say in my own (rather limited) experience of ski schools they will always claim that you will be provided with an instructor who speaks fluent English, but the term fluent is used somewhat loosely! Your then stuck with either accepting that you will get substandard teacing, or having to try to get a different instructor which would be incredibly awkward! By asking for a native English speaker you would avoid this! Having said all that, native English speakers are going to be fairly uncommon, and I would just ask in particular for someone who speaks excellent English.
Slightly off topic but a friend on a trip in France ended up with a French native who spoke reasonable English, but in a group with both french and british pupils.... that was a nightmare, instructor spent 90% off his time speaking french by all accounts! |
I agree with cp1000.
If you will only consider a native English speaker then you can choose a resort with a known native speaking school ie BASS, ski in an English speaking country or stay at home on an artificial slope in the UK. Asking for an instructor with good English is another matter and not difficult to come by. It could be argued that your language skills are 'substandard', instead of implying that the teaching is.
We have had all our lessons with a small independent French ski school. All the lessons have been conducted in English though I will speak as much French as possible (ie at times where precise 'skiing' terminology is not required  ). We have been in the situation you describe as a 'nightmare' - group lessons conducted in French and English. Yes he spoke more French than English but we learnt as much as the Belgians in the group and hey, shock horror might even have picked up some more vocab!
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abj, probably could be considered rude to ask for a native English speaker but if that's what you want and that's what it takes to get someone who speaks excellent English, so be it. Personally I ask for someone who speaks excellent English and though I have to weigh up the inconvenience factor have no issues flatly rejecting anyone whose English is not up to it. As Rocksteadee puts it, my money, their wages - they are a service industry and I am a potential income stream. They can decide if they wish to service my requirements and win my custom and I can choose whoever is most willing to compete by most completely satisfying my needs.
Lou, IMV the language skills of the customer in this situation are irrelevant as English is the prevailing common language in many parts of the world and there are understandably instructors who speak excellent English available in every major European resort. It's then a realistic and reasonable request, which any proper ski school should make the effort to dignify. It would be different if asking for someone who speaks excellent Fijian. That wouldn't be realistic or reasonable and it could then be argued that the customer's language skills were the impediment. I wouldn't say "substandard" though, customers don't have to live up to a standard (except perhaps of honesty and courtesy), it's the service providers who do.
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You know it makes sense.
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Lou, it sounds like you speak a bit of French, which obviously would help a great deal. However, it might be that SkiG's friends had little or no French - in which case they would have been at a dissadvantage.
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and hey, shock horror might even have picked up some more vocab!
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Personally, I think you're being a little facetious here. Fair play, if you consider improving your foreign language skills part of skiing lesson. However, it would appear that many people, including myself, do not!
[edited for spelling and also because I started rambling!]
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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For me it is about their enthusiasm to improve my skiing and not about how perfect their Eeeengleeeesh is. It may be coincidence, but I have had lessons from the four native english speakers (despite some being seaty socks  ) Charlotte Swift (L2A), Euan Wright (3V), Dave Meyer (3V) and Rorie Scott (Tignes) and I have to say that their sole desire was to improve my skiing
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Poster: A snowHead
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FWIW I don't think it's rude to ask for a native English speaker, the ability to communicate effectively with your instructor is going to have a pretty big impact on how much value you get from your lessons. It would of course be helpful if ski schools were perhaps a bit more realistic about what 'fluent' means - I am often asked to do things in German at work and if it's beyond my ability I will say so rather than accepting the work and then making a pigs ear of it.
Unfortunately I have had an experience where lack of fluency in English meant that my friend and I had to translate everything the instructor said, which meant everything took ages, and he got frustrated and reverted to just Bend Ze Knees with no critique of what we were doing and no explanation of what we were trying to achieve with each thing we did. It wasn't his fault, the ski school shouldn't have said he was fluent when he was.
I think when you are paying for a service like this, specifying your particular needs is perfectly acceptable, and more than that, it's necessary for the successful 'delivery' of the service.
D
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The REAL objective of OP is to end up with an instructor who can clearly communicate in English!
I can see the fuzzy line of what "fluent in English" means from the point of view of the ski school vs. that of the client! So, what's the most unambiguous language to ensure the instructor's English is indeed understandable?
Perhaps, instead of asking a "native English speaker", how about asking for an instructor who can "speak English like a native"? Or alternatively, how about "speak fluent English CLEARLY, with NO accent"?
Or, would the OP prefer "an instructor who could explain clearly in English complex concepts and movements"
In Austria, I've met plenty of locals who speak English clearly and were able to express themselves quite well. I would have no problem having an instructor of that level of language skill.
But wait, I myself am NOT a native English speaker! So what am I talking about? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| abc wrote: |
| "speak fluent English CLEARLY, with NO accent |
Most instructors i know have an ACCENT, they can't all speak proper Yorkshire
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| abj wrote: |
... specifically request a 'native English speaker' when arranging private lessons with a ski school?
I'm off to Zell am See in a couple of weeks and am in the process of firing some emails off to the local ski schools. Based on my previous (rather mixed) experience with instructors, it seems that you gets a lot more done/achieved with someone whose first language is the same as your own, so I was going to request a 'native English speaking instructor'.
But is it rude to do this? Will ski schools take umbrage over me basically not wanting to use their own country-men/women?
Or, am I just worrying over nothing? |
They all speak very good English, better than you speaking any European languages I imagine 
Plus, a lot of it is demonstrated.
Some of the best instructors I had were Italian, Austrian, Chilean, etc. - never ever had a problem.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges, if you re-read my post you will see that I think it is perfectly acceptable to request an instructor who speaks English.
I speak no German whatsoever. If I decide to ski in Austria and choose to have a lesson, I will look for a possible Austrian equivalent to BASS or request an English speaking instructor from another ski school. What I won't do is jump up and down if they cannot provide a real live Englishman. That would be arrogant imho.
abj, partly facetious, partly joking.
Like Frosty says, it's also about the instructor and how much they want to help. I had a private lesson several years ago when I thought it was all going to go down the pan because he was a very young chap with very little English. Turned out to be an excellent lesson - he was enthusiastic and kept the talking to the absolute minimum/essential.
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Oops ... I may have opened a can of worms here!
Just to be clear, all I'm trying to do is ensure that we (the instuctor and myself) are able communicate effectively and also that we are able to cover the more technical side of things without struggling on the language side of things.
A lot of people have mentioned bad experiences with instructors in the past, and all I'm trying to do is avoid wasting time/money.
If I could be guaranteed that all instructors described as having 'excellent English', did have excellent English, then I wouldn't be worrying. But this isn't always the case, therefore I'm trying to find away of being sure.
In short, 'fluent' or 'excellent' seem to be subjective terms - whereas native should be unambiguous (shouldn't it?).
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abj, I agree the issue is with the ambiguitiy of words like 'fluent' and 'excellent', and yes native is unambiguous - perhaps you could ask for a native speaker or someone with English at the same standard as a native speaker, that might help you to get what you want?
Contrary to GordonFreeman's post, my experience has found that, while many do, not all instructors have a high standard of English, and this becomes more important when you want to understand more complex and subtle/nuanced concepts. It's very frustrating parting with hard-earned cash as well as holiday hours, to find it a waste of time/money because communication is so difficult, and that is something that I for one would be at great pains to avoid.
D
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A slight side track: I don't pay for private unless I "know", either personally or via reliable source, the instructor is of high quality.
One way to "know" a good instructor is, if the instructor in a group lesson is helpful, that would be a good candidate as a private instructor. The other is by reference of other snowheads! 
I just don't go blindly requesting any random instrutor for a 1-on-1. The one thing this thread doesn't want to touch on, is you may end up with a native speaker but not a good instructor...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I offered my experience (and I guess I've had more instruction than most people on this forum). Take it or leave it. |
That's told him! Ribs still giving you hell then, Rob
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| I offered my experience (and I guess I've had more instruction than most people on this forum). Take it or leave it. |
That's told him! Ribs still giving you hell then, Rob
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FAQ
- on the second occasion he had a bit of a revolt on his hands so begrudgingly carried on with the lesson. I'm currently trying to get lessons sorted for her and it's going to be anyone other than ESF this time 
