Well, here is a POV film of my new skis being made in Portland. Besides a few things, off the shelf skis are the same in construction. Albeit less handmade.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Good to watch. What is the black stuff he's putting on the edges each time? I really hope that is what is going on in the pm gear factory right now on my bros.
Yep, all smoke & mirrors. If you ever want a high from solvents just go to a ski factory. I've been to a few and my abiding memory (apart from hazy) is GLUE.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
narc wrote:
Good to watch. What is the black stuff he's putting on the edges each time?
Without having watched the film, I'm guessing its the rubber dampener strips.
Yes black stuff is VDS rubber to give the skis a damp ride. PM Gear will be similar. They have a few things that they do better but they cost a lot more. Namely, wire mesh binding reinforcement instead of fibreglass. Full carbon on some models too. Not sure about the other stuff.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
My skis are handmade of ptex, edge, bamboo, carbon fibre, fibre glass for the topsheet, some super duper epoxy they use for making carbon fibre yacht hulls & a whole lotta luv.
Take note of the way they're properly factory tuned too.
After all it is free
After all it is free
frank4short, that too is a rad video! Loved the music. I sometimes wonder what i like more, buying new gear or skiing. hmmm
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
hmm, if they're Salomon's I thought they were made of squirty cream and optimism????
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
They were interesting video's. I note the way the skis were made as a pair. I was under the impression that even though two separate skis could be made in the same way it didn't mean that they flexed in exactly the same way and that this was why factory made skis are sometimes hand matched into pairs following production. Would these hand made skis by dint of the extra care taken be perfect matches if done in pairs as shown in the videos.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
mmm the on3p guys look like theyve got their operation really dialed
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Megamum, im not sure but you raise a valid point. I know that the amount of epoxy used can effect the flex so i guess that's why the cups were put on scales, ensuring the correct ratio of glue to hardener and also the same volume of glue in each ski. That and making sure materials used are exactly the same.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Liveezy, Mind you the cups of epoxy were not exactly quantitatively emptied were they, and the spreading whilst it looked reasonably even, also spread over the edges of the skis and was still hand applied so may have been subject to a small amount of thickness variation. Mind you I've no idea how much extra/less makes a difference.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Megamum, Only factory race skis are hand matched. The rest are just spat out on a production line.
To be honest i'm not entirely sure it matters for probably 99% of the skiing population. If you walked into a ski shop could you tell the difference in flex between 3 pairs of skis that were all exactly the same? For the majority of skiers the flex & stiffness of a ski is determined by it's construction & the materials its made of. On really high end boutique custom skis the manufacturers will match cuts of wood for stiffness before construction but otherwise it's a myth that mass produced skis are pair matched for stiffness.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
the_doc wrote:
hmm, if they're Salomon's I thought they were made of squirty cream and optimism????
That's giving them a lot of credit don't you think?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
frank4short wrote:
Megamum, Only factory race skis are hand matched. The rest are just spat out on a production line.
To be honest i'm not entirely sure it matters for probably 99% of the skiing population. If you walked into a ski shop could you tell the difference in flex between 3 pairs of skis that were all exactly the same? For the majority of skiers the flex & stiffness of a ski is determined by it's construction & the materials its made of. On really high end boutique custom skis the manufacturers will match cuts of wood for stiffness before construction but otherwise it's a myth that mass produced skis are pair matched for stiffness.
Vorda, How scripted was that video. You could almost see the r&d man's eyes moving across a script.haha. They probably do match them just because they have a large volume of skis so can do that. You would think that the flex would be very similar in each. But as frank mentioned, it's pretty much unnoticeable.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yeah, the lack of proper (any?) intonation made it clear as well. I think Ingemar actually started laughing at the situation at one point
haha, good times. I'm impressed by their production line and quality control. They mentioned having the laminate materials pre saturated in resin. That would be a big aid in maintaining the amount in each ski.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Vorda, I'm guessing here but that they don't actually match the skis per say just the machine tests for duds.
I don't doubt Elan make decent skis never heard anyone come out with a serious complaint about them yet at the same time i've rarely ever heard anyone completely rave about them so they can't be that good.
And do you believe everything you're told in a marketing video. I have some engineering knowledge i reckon there are some porkies in there & some things where they're stretching the truth. Like the thing about the pre resin soaked materials I'd be 99% sure someone figured out it's cheaper to do it that way cause there's less wastage & that it doesn't actually make it any better than an attentively constructed boutique ski where everything is done by hand.
Good to watch. What is the black stuff he's putting on the edges each time? I really hope that is what is going on in the pm gear factory right now on my bros.
narc, what Bros are you waiting for? Just had a great week in Tignes on my Llasa's but I'm top of the list for their reworked 183's when they start pressing them
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
spyderjon, i bet you got some funny looks in the lift lines wearing those monsters.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Someone sent me a link to this thread...as I was the one in the video and figured since I had 10 minutes while we figure out how a leak sprang up in one of our press hoses I would add to the conversation....
Liveezy wrote:
Yes black stuff is VDS rubber to give the skis a damp ride. PM Gear will be similar. They have a few things that they do better but they cost a lot more. Namely, wire mesh binding reinforcement instead of fibreglass. Full carbon on some models too. Not sure about the other stuff.
VDS is sort of a funny thing because companies always talk about how it is used for dampening the skis. While it does add to the dampening qualities of the skis, the primary reason it is used is to provide the skis with better bond between various layers, in this case the edges and fiberglass and fiberglass and UHMW. So that is why you see it where it is in the skis. Companies vary in their use of it. You will always find it over edges, but often it is left out above and below sidewall material. Our sidewalls are done at Crown Plastic (durasurf supplier) so they come flame treated and sanded for bonding, so we can definitely bond them without VDS. But in our tests, we have never had one delam between the fiberglass/UHMW layer when using VDS, so we have stuck with it.
As for the binding mat, there is also a lot of variance between ski makers. In our tests, the Dore-tech that PMgear uses (metal screen door screen) didn't seem to increase the edge retention in our layup significantly. I know that that was the result found by another, much larger reno based ski company as well. But with PMgears layup and core material, they seem to be getting pretty good results.
I would need to go back through my black book of ski making to see how many different materials we have tried for binding reinforcement, but I would venture a guess that it is between 10-15. This has ranged from a variety of things, but what we found the best screw retention from was a heavy fiberglass mat consisting of random chopped strands with a biaxial weave above it. So far we've only had one pull out ever, which was when our production manager Sam Caylor, whose about 6'1" 200 or so, skied drunkenly into the Mt Baker parking lot on one ski mounted with P-18's with the din cranked at around 13-14. So what we have definitely works well for us.
Quote:
They were interesting video's. I note the way the skis were made as a pair. I was under the impression that even though two separate skis could be made in the same way it didn't mean that they flexed in exactly the same way and that this was why factory made skis are sometimes hand matched into pairs following production. Would these hand made skis by dint of the extra care taken be perfect matches if done in pairs as shown in the videos.
Interesting to point out. We try to do several things to ensure evenly matched pairs. Since we use bamboo, we don't have the ability to book-match cores, so we do get minor variances in the bamboo density. So even with two perfectly profiled cores, you can get a slight variance in the cores weight. So before we layup, we weigh and pair up all the cores by weight.
As far as epoxy amounts, it takes a bit of time to learn how much you need to wet out the fiberglass and other layers and ensure that it is evenly done between skis. A lot of it visual, seeing how much the glass wets out, and the rest is feel. After awhile, you can tell when a section is good and just move on.
Once skis are pressed, which is as a pair obviously, they go through finishing together. Once they are done and ready to go, they get flexed and weighed again. We flex them to make sure they are similar in flex. I've yet to have to swap a pair based upon a noticeable flex difference, though I have picked up the wrong ski of a pair that was customized a bit (made softer) and tried to compare it to a stock pair...which lead to a bit of confusion until I finally figured out what was going on.
With any ski, even with book matched cores, there is going to be minor variance in weights between pairs. I am happy when our skis are within 15-20 grams of each other, which for the skis we've been making this past month is less than a 1% difference in weight. Because we match up our cores before hand by weight, we haven't had to change up much post-pressing as far as pairs go. Few swaps here and there when the difference between skis got up to 3%, or around 70 grams. But so far everything we have made (stock stuff at least...we've been doing a lot of flex modifications) has been within 5% or so of everything else, so we haven't had too much trouble pairs up skis.
Anyway...that was a nice little break from dealing with more ski press headaches. If anyone has any questions about ON3P or making skis, ask away. Insanely busy all the time, but I will try to check back at some point.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
frank4short wrote:
the_doc wrote:
hmm, if they're Salomon's I thought they were made of squirty cream and optimism????
That's giving them a lot of credit don't you think?
I thought they had the same internals as a Toffee Crisp or a Toblerone.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
YES! Iggy on Snow heads. +1 ON3P
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
iggyskier, Welcome to Snowheads, an interesting first post - its always interesting when someone logs on to give a first hand answer to questions.
As for my part I am pleased to be able to made an intelligent contribution to a thread (or so it seems from the answers) What I can't work out is how you all guessed that that it was the matching of Elans that I was referring to - that is the brand that was looking at when I had read about it
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
There's only one video on youtube on ski production from the big manufacturers, chances are pretty high people on a ski forum, gear subforum have seen it
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
What I can't work out is how you all guessed that that it was the matching of Elans that I was referring to - that is the brand that was looking at when I had read about it 
