Poster: A snowHead
|
philippeR, see attached article which outlines the increased risk of various cancers from passive smoking. Such as:
"Children exposed to passive smoking on a daily basis face more than triple the risk of lung cancer in later life, new research suggests. The research polled 303,000 people in Europe and found that children who experienced passive smoking daily - but not for many hours - faced twice the risk of lung cancer."
See full article here: http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13291496,00.html
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Frosty the Snowman, saikee, philippeR, Breathing in cigarette smoke now causes an asthmatic reaction for me. I do not have asthma, but now avoid all bars/restaurants/crowded places on GP's advice. I have been adversley affected in the open air on restaurant terraces and in lift lines. Diesel fumes have much the same effect. The more smoke that I breathe in the longer/worse the effects seem to be, for example from experience, 5 mins in a bar queueing for food=1 day feeling unwell. I therefore do not accept the "not a problem" stance. I have altered the way I live my life to stay away from smokers and their smoke.
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Quote: |
you seem to assume that it is your right to walk into any bar on the planet and have it ordered the way you like
|
What tosh. So far you've been talking relative sense, laundryman, but you've crossed the divide into liberal fence-sitting now. What I and probably all other non-smokers assume is the right to breathe air free from the smell of cigarettes. Just because we also happen to want to walk into and use a bar or restaurant does not mean we forego the right to clean air! What is the problem with grasping this incredibly simple concept, hmmm? Just because people have "always been able to smoke in bars" doesn't mean they should be able to carry on doing it! People used to engage in organising cock-fighting, bear and badger baiting, chucking faeces out of their upstairs windows, sending little kids up chimneys and even fox hunting. Society caught on to the fact that these pastimes/habits/individual's choices were cruel, unnecessary, not befitting a civilised society or all 3. You can stuff the "tradition" argument up your bottom, I'm afraid - it just doesn't work.
It's not a case of nazi-like behaviour or just wanting to impose our will on others, rather an upwelling of resentment brought about after years of putting up with the bloody awful habit. I hate the fact that I come home after a couple of drinks out with other non-smoking friends smelling like an ashtray. I hate the fact that my eyes are sore, my sinuses hurt, my throat is sore... I HATE the smell. I HATE the fact that smokers smugly think that THEY have a right to do what they want, when they want, WHERE they want and they don't give two hoots about other people. May I remind you that it is a significant minority in this country that smokes. We live in a democracy, that means that the majority decide the rules, not the minority.
The "outdoors" argument doesn't really wash either, to be honest. I walked out of ASDA yesterday, straight into a lungful of smoke being created by four people standing immediately outside the door - what right do they have to make me smell their smoke? None whatsoever. You cannot simply push smokers outdoors where you get a lungful of their smoke when walking behind them in the street. Send them indoors into smoking rooms where they can freely mix with their own kind.
People can smoke ALL they want in their own homes, cars (don't chuck the fag end out onto the road though, you morons!) in fact anywahere enlcosed where non-smokers don't have it forced up on them.
saikee,
Quote: |
Non smoker still eat smoked salmon and smoked ham, don't they?
|
If that isn't meant in jest, it's one of the most stupid comments on this thread yet...
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
philippeR wrote: |
Carled, I'm afraid this is getting us nowhere. I'll try one more time anyway. |
Quote: |
Because I put up with others offensive habits all the time. |
I truly cannot believe you are trying to defend your right to smoke because people talk too loudly near you or let their babies cry... Quite unbelievable.
Quote: |
If you really wake up in such a shape in the morning, Carled, you spend too much times in pubs, I'm afraid...
|
After two hours of volleyball practise on Wednesday night, I went to a local pub for 45 minutes. The next morning, I had a sore throat and my eyes were bloodshot. My hair stank of smoke. The clothes I'd been wearing stank of smoke. 45 minutes... It wasn't even THAT busy in there, only a few people were smoking and yet it still affected me. I suppose now you'll accuse the pub of having poor ventilation or me of sitting too close to the smokers. If I'd been less selfish I'd have sat outside in the sleet so it didn't bother me, wouldn't I?
Quote: |
It will, maybe. But it is not yet. Deal with it. I may sound selfish and idiot, you may sound self-rigteous and condescending.
|
You are selfish. All smokers are. Some realise it, others don't. I am not being self-righteous or condescending, merely standing up for my right as a non-smoker not to be affected by you.
Quote: |
Selfrighteous again. As long as you use fossil fuel propeled transport means, as long as you use coal produced electricity, as long as you buy plastic objets you're arguably second handedly (spelling?) kill people too, Carled. So spare me the second hand smoke health argument. It has never really be demonstrated that second hand smoke was really lethal anyway.
Thanks Laundryman |
Second hand smoking kills people. It's been proved. "Deal with it" as you so succinctly put it. Second hand smoking is also unpleasant and upsets people who don't want to smell smoke. We have every right to be in that bar/restaurant/other public place and we have every right to not have to smell cigarette smoke. Smoking should be done in enclosed non-public places.
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
carled wrote: |
you've crossed the divide into liberal fence-sitting now. |
I'm very happy to be called a liberal. I'd rather sit on the fence than interfere with what consenting adults do on private property
Quote: |
What I and probably all other non-smokers assume is the right to breathe air free from the smell of cigarettes. |
With you so far.
Quote: |
Just because we also happen to want to walk into and use a bar or restaurant does not mean we forego the right to clean air! |
That's right, you're not forced to go in. Life's full of choices, or should be.
Quote: |
Just because people have "always been able to smoke in bars" doesn't mean they should be able to carry on doing it! People used to engage in organising cock-fighting, bear and badger baiting, chucking faeces out of their upstairs windows, sending little kids up chimneys and even fox hunting. Society caught on to the fact that these pastimes/habits/individual's choices were cruel, unnecessary, not befitting a civilised society or all 3. You can stuff the "tradition" argument up your bottom, I'm afraid - it just doesn't work. |
I haven't used the tradition argument, so you can stuff it up someone else's.
Quote: |
It's not a case of nazi-like behaviour or just wanting to impose our will on others |
Yes it is, you would deny a person the right to set up an establishment where people may voluntarily drink and smoke together.
Quote: |
...rather an upwelling of resentment brought about after years of putting up with the bloody awful habit. I hate the fact that I come home after a couple of drinks out with other non-smoking friends smelling like an ashtray. I hate the fact that my eyes are sore, my sinuses hurt, my throat is sore... I HATE the smell. |
Have you ever thought of stopping hitting your head against a brick wall?
Quote: |
I HATE the fact that smokers smugly think that THEY have a right to do what they want, when they want, WHERE they want and they don't give two hoots about other people. |
I dislike those smokers too (hate is too strong a word for me, though). However, most smokers I know are much more considerate.
Quote: |
May I remind you that it is a significant minority in this country that smokes. We live in a democracy, that means that the majority decide the rules, not the minority. |
I believe in liberal democracy, in which majorities forbear from imposing their will on minorities for the sake of it.
Quote: |
The "outdoors" argument doesn't really wash either, to be honest. I walked out of ASDA yesterday, straight into a lungful of smoke being created by four people standing immediately outside the door - what right do they have to make me smell their smoke? None whatsoever. You cannot simply push smokers outdoors where you get a lungful of their smoke when walking behind them in the street. Send them indoors into smoking rooms where they can freely mix with their own kind. |
Bingo! I'd find it easier to support a ban in spaces that are definitely public. The smoker's are probably changing their mind about me now!
Quote: |
People can smoke ALL they want in their own homes, cars (don't chuck the fag end out onto the road though, you morons!) in fact anywahere enlcosed where non-smokers don't have it forced up on them. |
You are not forced into smoky bars, just because they have something else you want.
Quote: |
saikee,
Quote: |
Non smoker still eat smoked salmon and smoked ham, don't they?
|
If that isn't meant in jest, it's one of the most stupid comments on this thread yet... |
I believe that saikee belongs to an ethnic minority. English may not be his mother tongue. I've noticed that he has used 'unusual' turns of phrase sometimes. Perhaps you would consider withdrawing your remark.
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Guys calm down a bit please or we may have to lock this thread
|
|
|
|
|
|
Quote: |
I HATE the fact that smokers smugly think that THEY have a right to do what they want, when they want, WHERE they want and they don't give two hoots about other people.
|
That's a strawman, Carled.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/straw-man.html
Sonya, You're absolutly right about second hand smoking when it comes to kids. That's why I don't smoke in my home but in front of the open kitchen window. I have 2 kids.
I was, without enough nuance and for the sake of the argument , refering to such studies
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn3737
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-09/cfta-pdm090601.php
And stand to my position that a resonable exposure to second hand smoke (at the pub, in a restaurant, in a social occasion) won't harm you anymore than a daily exposure to car fumes in heavy urban traffic.
You don't drive a diesel car Carled, do you ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
D G Orf,
Sorry for the cross posting.
You're right, and I'm done.
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
laundryman, I don't see your problem with what I posted in response to Saikee and PhilippeR. Regardless of what their mother tongue is, they are participating on an English forum. It's their choice to do so and no-one is forcing them into it. I'm not aware that I've said anything abusive about their grammar or spelling at all and, if I have, then it is purely inadvertently and they are free to take issue with me. I don't think you need to stand up for the opressed masses though.
If you're after ethnic diversity on the board, I count - I'm half German.
On your continued bashing of your head against the proverbial brick wall and public houses... if and when there are ANY that enforce a smoking ban in my area, I will be delighted to vote with my feet and patronise their establishments. In the meantime, I don't really have a choice, do I? and that's thr problem. It's being forced upon me because there isn't anywhere else to go. If, for example, there were 100 people in that pub and only 3 of them were smoking then ALL of us have to put up with their smoke... hardly democratic - liberal or otherwise.
|
|
|
|
|
|
philippeR, I trust from the "position" that you are occupying that your knowledge of the effect of second hand smoke(what is reasonable) can be supported by evidence. My personal experience (evidence) is contrary. I have been harmed and have been deprived of many experiences restaurants/clubs/public places as a result of the need to avoid the smoke made by all smokers (you included) and I resent that.
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
snowbunny, I've no time to dig from the internet studies we both wouldn't have the time to read and discuss. And, yes, that's a lame answer....
You, from your own words, seem to suffer from an asmathic reaction to irritating fumes, from tobacoo but also diesel fumes or else. I can assure you that, if we were to met, I'll quickly respond to your request to refrain from smoking. It's the most basic courtesy.
But you'll admit that your situation is not typical of most adults.
You'll also admit that tobacco smoke is not the only factor of irritation for you. (shall we start a thread on diesel cars ? on chair lifts of course)
And so, that your case is no more an evidence that my own experience of non smokers, like my wife, who hates tobacco, blending easily with smokers, up to a reasonable level of pollution.
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
philippeR, I am glad to hear that you only smoke in front of an open window in an attempt to protect your kids.
However that does contradict your argument that passive smoking causes no harm. The fact that you do open the window in an attempt to lessen the impact of your smoking on your children proves that you too do believe there is some reason for concern ... otherwise you wouldn't bother going to the trouble of moving beside the window and opening it.
Two wrongs don't make a right .. car fumes do indeed cause problems.
But I'm glad that you don't use that logic with your children, that 'well my kids are exposed to traffic most days, so I may as well smoke in front of them too'.
|
|
|
|
|
|
My comment on smoked salmon and ham is to show that huge amount of smoke is generated for the food we eat. The amount of fume on any BBQ is also much much more serious than a fag.
I couldn't understand why people should get excited on smoking as I said 40 to 60 years back everybody smoked and it was impolite to turn away a cigarette when offered one in a social occaison. It was anti-social not to smoke then!
Nowadays people are more health conscious and quite rightly less people are picking up the habit. However I don't see a necessity to bite a smoker's head off, unless we are prepared to turn the cars, lorries and buses off too to stop the smoke.
We have to be mindful that one day we could treat people who drink the same way we treat people who now smoke. We are already preventing them to drive.
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Sonya,
your point is well taken, I'm afraid. two wrongs don't make a right
However, let me point out that I didn't said that second hand smoking causes no harm.
I said
, and later acknowledged I needed to elaborate on a provocative assertion.
and
Quote: |
won't harm you anymore than a daily exposure to car fumes in heavy urban traffic
|
which was actually directed to a rather absolutist Carled who, I suspect doesn't mind infringing my right to breathe an air clean of his/her car fumes...
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
PhilippeR... and ANYONE else trying the tired old "car fumes" argument...
Look, transport is rather essential, don't you think? Smoking is not. Are you saying that smokers don't drive or use public transport or that you, PhilippeR, don't use planes at all? Yes, there are loads of other pollutants out there and they are mainly caused as byproducts of essential day-to-day functions. Almost ALL of society is involved in these other pollutant-creating habits, yet only one small part of society - smokers - choose to make the problem even worse. Imagine if we could escape the fume-laden city streets and come into a nice, clean air environment and have a coffee, orange juice or even a beer... and yet, to a large degree, we can't because of you smokers.
If I start locking you in a room and feeding the exhaust fumes of a car in via a hosepipe or something, then you've got a right to complain. To start pointing a finger at me saying, "ah, but you drink alcohol and you eat fatty food" or whatever is foolish because to do so is my personal choice AND ME DOING SO AFFECTS NO-ONE ELSE. Unfortunately every smoker in a public place affects anyone within smelling distance. You are imposing YOUR habits on unwilling participants - which would be like me forcing you to drink the same drinks as me or eat the same food as me. I don't do that, so why can you get away with forcing me to breathe in your smoke? You can't say, "I'm not forcing you - you can leave the bar" is the same as me saying, "you leave the bar - you're smoking, not me".
You don't go into bars to smoke, (Laundryman take note) rather to drink (whatever you want - doesn't have to be alcohol), eat, watch a band, socialise or all 4. So taking it that everyone in the bar is there for the same thing to start with, why should we then allow a small minority to start doing something additional that affects the rest of the unwilling participants? As they are the ones causing the problem, they should be the ones who have to go elsewhere to exercise their right to smoke.
Tell you what, how about I invent something like a space helmet that allows you to smoke without your smoke getting into anyone else's lungs? Would you sit there and wear it? Thought not...
There is NO argument for smoking in public places, including anywhere non-smokers have every right to go.
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
carled,
There're basicaly 2 lines of arguments against second hand smoking. Both valid of course.
1- It's unhealthy, it harms non-smokers.
To that I've responded yes, but to what degree ? And I've raised the car fumes argument. Second hand smoking, as a health risk, is on par with other polluting human activities, like driving a diesel car. So you should be either more tolerant with smokers (if it is not that bad) or advocating a ban of diesel (if it's that bad). Do you really think your 45' to a smoke filled pub had shortened your life ? My point of view (I may be wrong) is that the health issue in this debate is (for everage adults) a false argument (remeber, we were talking in the beginning of smokers in the mountain !) That's why i've also raised the alcohol or greasy food argument : If you were so sensitive to health issue, why would you drink beer in a pub ? That it is forced upon you or not is irrelevant. That leads us to :
2- It stinks. It's highly bothering.
Yes. So are other human activities. And I've raised the bad perfume or loud voices argument. Your level of tolerance to that should be determined by your personal feelings and the social context. Loud music in a campgroung at midnight = bad. In a nightclub = acceptable. Smoke in a nursery = bad. In a bar = ? Here our mileage may vary...
I'm just claiming for more nuance, and an acceptable modus vivendi.
Hope that clears tings a little
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
carled, I go into a bar if/when, taking into account of all of the circumstances, it's somewhere I want to be.
By the way, with like-minded people, I have successfully lobbied for the bar of a hotel to be made non-smoking, and the hotelier is very pleased with the result. Sometimes, talking (not shouting) to people works.
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Quote: |
JD Wetherspoons report mentioned above, which claims "the first of its non-smoking outlets had achieved sales “substantially higher” than the company average
|
That's weird. In my local Wetherspoons I can never get a table straightaway in the smoking section. The (larger) non smoking section always has empty ones
Lets face it. The pub is the only place most people can smoke nowadays. I can drink at home, or at friends cheaper. So if all the pubs go no smoking I won't go, as I go there for a cigarette, not a drink, really.
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Just to add my 2p and back track to the original post.
I was discussing this topic with a Mr Haute Savoie yesterday. I recounted a post about French people (ESF instructors) lighting up on the chairlift. His response, which to me was not unexpected, went something like this "Zees is my ouse (meaning home) and my culture. If you no like....F*** off back to the UK! " A big rant followed about loud, pi$$ed up and dangerous Brit skiers in the Alpes but that's another story.....
I know Mr Savoie very well and anticipated an aggressive response, I kind of broached the subject to wind him up, but does he have a point?
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Boardski, No, Mr Haute Savoie has no right to say things like that. Being an ESF instructor also makes it shameful for him to respond like that. I think most (French) paeople would also take offense at the tone and response .. let alone his employers,
Mind you , given that you have a history with hime .. may be more to this than fag-ash?
Can't be bothered to read the whole thread again, but where was this?
P.S. If my (French) other half had heard him say that , about that subject.. he wouldn't have made the top of the chair lift, she'd have murdered him on about 4 different counts ..... and I still occasionally smoke ( sorry , only in the open air !!..Ooops)
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
Newbie50, I don't think Boardski, said the French bloke was ESF.
|
|
|
|
|
|
laundryman, Re-read .... shame I failed my 11-plus isn't it? Apologies to all...
He still does not have a valid point though .. ESF or not !
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
This appeared in the UK Hospitality Industry trade press today:
Passive smoking kills one hospitality employee every week
The British Medical Journal (BMJ) has reported that at least one UK hospitality worker dies every week as a result of passive smoking.
In research published on its website, the BMJ also found that second-hand smoke in all workplaces kills more than two people every working day (617 deaths per year).
The medical publication estimates the total number of UK deaths as a result of passive smoking is 10,950 annually, an average of 30 per day.
The results will lend weight to calls for a total ban on smoking in public places, a move that would go further than Health Secretary John Reid's White Paper proposals.
James Johnson, chairman of the BMJ, told London's Evening Standard: "I don't know how John Reid can continue to serve the public half-measures on health. We need a total ban and we need it now."
Ian Wilmore, a spokesman for the anti-smoking pressure group ASH, told the paper that the mortality rate among hospitality workers was too high a price to pay for indulging a dangerous habit.
by Tom Bill
|
|
|
|
|
|
boredsurfin,
Just wonder what the answer would be if we ask BMJ "Would ban skiing help saving people from avalache deaths and fall injuries?"
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
saikee, of course it would, but that is a totally different case. Skiing is a risk that one assumes for oneself, not a risk that one imposes on others.
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
|
|
This thing has grown and grown and has got out of hand IMO....Suggest we all go skiing....or at least talk about it..!!
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Quote: |
Lets face it. The pub is the only place most people can smoke nowadays. I can drink at home, or at friends cheaper. So if all the pubs go no smoking I won't go, as I go there for a cigarette, not a drink, really. |
There's no smoking in bars in BC, and they're packed all the time . . .
Personally I go to bars because they're just a fun environment, especially when there's live music. Drinking at home/friends is just not as fun as drinking in a bar, for the most part.
Anyways, I'm not a smoker, but I have too many good friends who smoke to really have any kind of a beef against smoking.
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
laundryman wrote: |
By the way, with like-minded people, I have successfully lobbied for the bar of a hotel to be made non-smoking, and the hotelier is very pleased with the result. Sometimes, talking (not shouting) to people works. |
In that case you won't mind if us non-smokers lobby for a ban in all bars! I mean, if YOU are allowed to pick and choose which bars are smoke-free and which are not...
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
I was very surprised to find smoking carriages in the trains that ferry you round Wengen /Grindelwald a few weeks ago, quite a significant number of seats are designated smoking, which resulted, in busy periods, a majority of non-smokers, often with kids in tow, having to passively inhale other folks lambert and butler! What was particularly unpleasant was that these inconsiderate ****** (insert own expletive!) seemed to actually take pleasure in the fact that what they were doing was causing discomfort to others!
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Tim Brown, I have no objection to you lobbying any bar owner you please, over any matter whatsoever.
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Quote: |
Wetherspoon's profits fall by 20%
4 Mar 2005 17:08
|
So thats the end of voluntary no smoking pubs?
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Maybe not:
Quote: |
Pre-tax profits fell in the six months to 23 January to £14.3m ($27.3m) from £20.7m in 2004.
The pub group said trading at its first two non-smoking pubs was going well and was better than the company average. |
Full article from the BBC.
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
carled,
I got some support then !
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
|
|
stanton, Geneva airport has to be the worst place I know for smoke.
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'm not going to get back into this debate (far too heated), but if there's such a demand for non-smoking pubs then why aren't the publicans doing it?
I agree, even as a smoker, that some pubs are quite horrid (there's at least one here), but if anyone wants to cancel their lessons for the BSM bash say so now - I live in France, it's legal in France, and the more nasty people are the less likely I am to give up - perverse I know!
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Funny I have never seen a shot gun pointing to my head forcing me into Geneva airport or a French slope. To be perfectly honest I have never noticed smokers in Geneva airport. The number of times I have come into contact with smokers in French resorts can be counted on the number of fingers on one hand. If I can't stand the smoke I would simply go elsewhere. Why should we interfere with other people's way of life? The smokers have as much right to enjoy skiing as the non-smokers.
Skiing is known to be environmentally unfriendly because of we re-arrange nature to suit a sport. So is it noble to complain a bit of smoke in a skiing resort?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|