 Poster: A snowHead
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OK so I'm now the proud owner of all sorts of wax and edge paraphernalia and I'm set to get my board down from the loft to prep it for my first trip in 3 weeks.
So which wax ?
The wax temperature range stated on the package - is this the actual snow temperature or the air temperature ?
(realistically I won't know the snow temperature before I go, and when im there im unlikely to be running out the chalet each day to dig a thermometer in the snow).
Also the weather can change drastically betweeen now and then.
So which wax should I apply ?
I have :
blue: -20 to -14
red: -14 to -4
yellow: -4 to zero
Well I don't think its going to be cold enough to warrant blue (I'll be in 3V, mainly La Tania/Courchevel end), and I doubt its going to warm up sufficiently to need the yellow, that said never say never, I've been sat on terraces in glorious sunshine down to a T-shirt in January before.
So what is the standard form ?
Should I apply a layer of the coldest/hardest wax now to get it into the base, (my base is fairly dried out and is likely going to need a few coats), then maybe a layer of of the red wax just before I go (which i can substitute for yellow if the temperature happens to leap up) ?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Gazzza, What brand is the wax ? Some use snow temperature, some air temperature.
I would just use some of the red.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Holmenkol.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Gazzza, I'm assuming its Toko, you can use the yellow for a hot scrape, iron it on but scrape off while still soft, then brush it out, brass brush, then apply the red , if you want to know how have a look at www.jonsskituning.co.uk/content/view/22/34/
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gazzza, Toko yellow is similar has a range of 0 to -4c
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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You got it. A hot scrape of blue to clean and prep. Then a couple of cycles of red should see you glide for a few days.
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Should be yellow though, not blue, for the hot scrape ?
I suppose I was thinking of an initial layer of blue, after the hot scrape/clean, to get some harder wax into the base, before waxing with the red for the conditions ?
(I confess i was thinking of being lazy and using a spray cleaner rather than hot scraping, but maybe as I am going to the effort I should do it properly and do a hot scrape)
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Why would you apply different temperature rated waxes in base in layers that will never come in contact with the snow? Can someone explain why you would not just use the hardest wax going, for all temperatures of snow? What is it at the 'wax to melted snow' lamina interface that will make one temp wax good and another bad? Should you use the hardest wax you can get away with or the softest you can get away with?
Sorry for so many questions. The more have read about waxing, the more I have concluded that it is 95% b*ll*cks and 5% science. It seems there is more myth and folklore in waxing than there is in astrology.
I'd like to know much more about the science.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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bar shaker, Not strictly true, if you are a professional racer but I supposes that at the level of most of us it probably is mainly BS.
The OP just wants to have some fun! No doubt any wax would be good enough for any of us at an intermediate level! Waxing skills only come into their own when 100th of seconds are involved. For me standard waxing from shops are fine! 
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i doubt you will notice the difference what ever wax you put on!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It's true I need to get out more 
This is what comes of having a 2 year old and not getting out much, you get all anally retentive about your hobbies. Though I'm not quite at the stage of seeing the attraction of spending all day in the garden shed yet.
I was supposed to get a universal all temp wax, but they ran out and shipped me a multi pack of the different temp waxes instead, hence my q.
I do believe wax makes a difference even for intermediate recreation use - when my board was a few days old I took it for wax and they did a decent job. Next day blatting from Vallandry across to Arc 1800 (from the bottom of plan bois) I easily cruised that long flat traverse. My mates all ground to halt and were left skating/poling. Maybe less of an issue for skiers as you just pole onwards, but I hate having to unclip and and skate across flats.
I'm no racer, just want to enjoy the mountain, but I've had some shoddy shop jobs done in the last year or so, so decided to give it a go doing it myself and figured I may as well use the right stuff.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Gazzza I am also a boarder and this is yet another facet of the problem. Some advise waxing a new board, some don't. I bought my board in Feb and it has Burton's best sintered base. Some advised getting it waxed before use, some said after a couple of days, some said when its scored up and needs it.
I wrote to Burton and asked their advise as the base is immaculate after 12 days hard use on very good snow. Burton said it will need wax sooner if used in slush (I haven't been to Austria so haven't ridden on any  ) and I understand this to be as the temp at the interface with the snow will be warm and will melt the wax away. Being sintered, they explained that it will need wax when you can see the white flecks of the ptex core coming to the surface. This is different for an extruded base, which holds about a quarter of the wax of a sintered core. I'll get it done next week, before I go, but only as I am away for 12 days. I expect I may have to get it re-done whilst I'm away as I doubt the shop will use waxes as good as Burton did and suspect the factory waxing machines are rather good at the job. The same may not be true of a £300 board.
Burton advised to use wax with a high 'fluoro' content which I took to be fluorine. I know not why.
That almost everyone on the mountain will be on 'universal wax' (a blend of different temperature waxes, 75% of which will be the wrong temperature for the snow being ridden) makes me think that waxing is indeed one of the darkest of 'black arts'. When I hear of people putting on wax A, scraping it all off and then putting on wax B (the more times you do this, the faster you go - yeah right!) I wonder if these people also specialise in palm reading and tarot cards. The science, when we get to hear it, may prove me wrong.
Many people talk about endless glides on well waxed boards and skis but I am afraid to say most of your glide will be a result of your better speed onto the flat, your better flat riding technique... and your board size, relative to your weight. I have proved this with mates by swapping boards and re-doing a run. The rider is most of the equation.
Back to the topic though... so anyone care to explain the science behind wax grades and their interface with the lamina melt layer?
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 29-12-09 15:51; edited 1 time in total
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| bar shaker wrote: |
| Back to the topic though... so anyone care to explain the science behind wax grades and their interface with the lamina melt layer? |
No. 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Wax,shred,wax,shred. repeat. Enough said.
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Poster: A snowHead
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bar shaker, have a look at www.toko.ch , they have a wax manual which might help in your quest for greater knowledge, I would agreed that technique counts for a lot but waxing does make a difference. Jon (see link above) has a dvd on servicing which also goes into the reasons for waxing and the different types of waxes and powders
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 30-12-09 21:14; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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bar shaker, Try in now the comma became part of the URL, always thought Seanhad big pants
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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frankm, that's exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I am now getting a feeling of what's going on. The paper also dispells many of the myths about wax use.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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haha, excellent. That paper is full of proper geeky techno facts. I must remember a couple so I can spout a few off and sound all intelligent next when I'm away and everyone looks at me like a loon as I stand there waxing my board mid-week in the chalet. When my wife rolls her eyes at me, I can remind her about the hydro-carbons in my base.
The only question remains, is a wax and edge a 3 beer, or a 4 beer job ?
As for that photo, I'm not even going to ask 
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If in doubt wax harder (colder). A wax for colder snow than current conditions will still run pretty well, where as a wax for warmer snow (that is too soft) will be noticeable sticky.
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Gazzza, 4 beer, you don't want to rush the job
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Well, cheers for all the replies. Did my first board service for the first time over the New year weeekend. Seems to have come up a treat.
As temps in Europe seem quite low at the mo. I did a layer of blue first, scraped and brushed, then stuck a layer of red on top. Not used the board yet as we don't fly out till a week on Sunday, but it's looking good.
Couple of tips for any other first timers - I helpfully had a piece of kitchen roll to hand, on the board next to where i was ptexing a gouge, to catch any drips from the candle. The point at which the first drop of melted ptex dripped off the candle and dropped on it, and promptly set the kitchen paper alight, I realised this wasn't that great an idea.
Also don't scrape/smooth down the ptex out too soon as it seems likely to crack a little round where it binds with the board. Other than that I was pleasantly surprised with how easy it was to ptex the couple of gauges.
Oh, and if like my you don't have a fag lighter to light the ptex with, and having read you shouldn't use matches, I was pleased to find that the little blow torch in the kitchen cupboard (the type for frazzling the sugar crysals on top of your creme brulee  ) works a treat.
Edgeing seemed fairly straightforward, as did the waxing, but scraping and smoothing took more elbow grease than I was expecting.
Finally I didn't have a snowboard vice/holder, and didn't really relish the idea of spending 80 quid on a pair. I found two bits of deep Torus skirting board in the loft, cut them into two board length widths, turned them upside down, cut a 6cm deep 1cm wide groove in the middle of each, clamped each into a work bench and hey presto. A board holder. Flat for the base wax (I put strips of insulatino tape across the top to make it more resitant and stop the board sliding aroudn when scraping), and slotted vertically in to the grooves for doing the edges. Priceless.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Wed 6-01-10 14:07; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Gazzza wrote: |
As temps in Europe seem quite low at the mo. I did a layer of blue first, scraped and brushed, then stuck a layer of red on top. Not used the board yet as we don't fly out till a week on Sunday, but it's looking good.
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Now this is the bit that confuses me.
Did you scrape the original wax off to a few mill below the edge rail (normal surface layer) so the blue wax would sit 1mm below this level and the red wax would then sit proud?
Assuming you didn't scrape off all the blue wax, or all the red wax, what is the advantage in using two layers of different temperature waxes?
Did you use high Fluorocarbon waxes?
I didn't see anything in the Uni papers about this technique but may have missed it.
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The wax you put on gets sucked in and absorbed into the base. You then scrape off the all the excess left on the surface. You can add another layer, and get more absorbed in. According to Jon's website, racers can/do do this uop to 16 times, to get as much wax into the base material as possible. For me, for rec use i felt a couple of layers was about right as the base was quite dry.
Anyway when you ski/board on it, the base heats up and the wax slowly gets sucked back out.
So yes, I waxed it, left it to dry for an hour, scraped it all off in it's entirity. Then added the second layer. Then, left a few hours, scraped and brushed out again, then polished smooth.
Ultimately you don't want a layer of wax on the base, the useful wax is actually absorbed inside the core. So no wax is sitting proud at all. I had a chalet staff do a really crap wax job once and there was a layer of visible thick wax left on the board - this was really sticky on the snow and made the board crap - had to take it back to get it re-scraped/brushed/polished off.
I'm not really 100% sure why i used blue first then red. I recall reading somewhere about getting a hard wax into the base first for your very first layer as it adds strenth - I have no idea if this is myth. Also I only had a small block of red, and I wanted to leave engouh to do a mid week top up wax whilst Im away and i think it will be the most suitable wax for the conditions. I didnt have enough to do two now and one away, so I figured if I got a layer of the colder blue into the base, then a red. If all the red wears out, I'll still have the benefit of some blue deep in the core.
I also assume, but this is a guess, that the combinatnio of the two waxes in the base will somehow merge and give me a temp range somewhere between the two wax tamp ratings ?? Though this is just a guess.
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You know it makes sense.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
Did you use high Fluorocarbon waxes?
I didn't see anything in the Uni papers about this technique but may have missed it. |
Used this wax: http://www.edgeandwax.co.uk/acatalog/Holmenkol_Worldcup_Mix_Wax.html
It is a hydrocarbon wax ??
Not sure if this is high flouro or otherwise.
It says it can be layered with other waxes to create a finnish for the conditions.
It also says about the blue can be used to add an initial layer of protection before applying other waxes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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