 Poster: A snowHead
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See this report
From the Guardian
Other reports state the 12 year old boy has died.
All very sad.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Tis on BBC website news too.
4 locals die because 3 tourists ignore the warnings. How often do we hear of this ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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DallyPaul, too damned often unfortunately! This is the 4th or 5th such report of avalanche deaths I've read so far this season already. But much sadder because of the deaths of the rescuers.
I heard this report yesterday on the radio and was looking for a link to post here. Sometimes when I read on boards like this about people who "never ski on piste" or similar statements, my blood starts to boil at the arrogant stupidity of some of the tourists. Absolutely no idea of the dangers, just ignorant thrill seekers who feel that because it is their holiday they have the right to ski off-piste or closed slopes, anywhere in fact that they want to! They've paid their money and they are, in their estimation, master skiers! This is the price that the rescue services sometimes have to pay
I used to be a member of a Mountain and Cave Rescue Team in the UK and we had to deal with the same kind of ignorance as well. It does not matter that they got themselves into trouble, they call the rescue services to get them out of it and, more often than not, never gave more than the most perfunctory "thanks" for all our trouble. A lot of them had no idea that it cost us money as well as our employers, to pull them out of the hole they had got themselves into. 
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Samerberg Sue, DallyPaul, Hear, hear.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Samerberg Sue, while I do generally agree with you, it seems that at least one of these accidents happened in an area that was basically a connecting run between two pistes
| Quote: |
| In the mountains west of Bolzano, meanwhile, a third avalanche struck three young Germans. after they left the ski runs near Malga Madriccio to take a well-trodden short-cut across the slopes |
It seems to me that European resorts make life a bit too easy for themselves by declaring areas that are not directly on the the piste as being 'your own problem'. I imagine that this is largely a matter of the cost of performing avalanche control on the whole of the resort rather than simply in those areas that directly threaten the pistes. I would prefer to see resorts take the American approach of having an 'in-bounds' area that is fully avalanche controlled. That way these kinds of between the piste accidents would be far less frequent, not that they don't still happen in America as well.
Just a thought!
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Such an awful tragedy in such a beautiful spot, 4 brave men in the prime of their lives, their families along with the whole of the Upper Val di Fassa mourning.
A heavy price to pay for all involved, the inexperienced holidaymakers ignoring the warnings and going into conditions that locals wouldn't go near except to try and rescue the idiots from their own stupidity.
All the more poignant because it's somewhere I love and have visited often, this is the entrance to Val Lasties where the 4 rescuers lost their lives:
 [/url]
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| Steilhang wrote: |
Samerberg Sue, while I do generally agree with you, it seems that at least one of these accidents happened in an area that was basically a connecting run between two pistes
| Quote: |
| In the mountains west of Bolzano, meanwhile, a third avalanche struck three young Germans. after they left the ski runs near Malga Madriccio to take a well-trodden short-cut across the slopes |
It seems to me that European resorts make life a bit too easy for themselves by declaring areas that are not directly on the the piste as being 'your own problem'. I imagine that this is largely a matter of the cost of performing avalanche control on the whole of the resort rather than simply in those areas that directly threaten the pistes. I would prefer to see resorts take the American approach of having an 'in-bounds' area that is fully avalanche controlled. That way these kinds of between the piste accidents would be far less frequent, not that they don't still happen in America as well.
Just a thought! |
Good point, but the Val Lasties incident was two guys from the lowland city of Udine snowshoeing into a wilderness area when the avalanche warning was 4/5, the snowpack being unstable due to a weak, unconsolidated layer. If you're going to do something like that, you need to heed warnings/take local advice/understand the risks for yourself. Unfortunately, you can't protect people from their own stupidity. Respect the mountains.
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Steilhang, the so-called "well trodden path" was probably made by other idiots who got away with it! I for one do not want to see the kind of control that many of the US resorts use. It has less to do with safety and more to do with making sure the resorts do not get sued for millions for any accident.
In the mountains there are no guarantees. I witnessed a slab avalanche break on a section of a blue piste in La Plagne a few years back. Luckily nothing serious occurred apart from a rush of blood for my friends who were actually skiing it at the time. It was late in the season and a spring had broken through and caused a section to slip. It was time to close the piste, which duly happened, but the next day I saw people skiing it as it was the quickest way back to a restaurant!
We are drawn to these areas by their natural beauty, long may they stay that way. But we also have to respect the natural rawness and possible dangers. No amount of skill, technology or mastery of your boards will help you if the whole slope dumps on your head. We seem to be in some kind of collective illusory state where we believe that we have tamed nature and are invincible.
Then reality hits and the blame game starts! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| We seem to be in some kind of collective illusory state where we believe that we have tamed nature and are invincible. |
I think you're getting carried away now.
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That's really unfortunate. Just goes to show that it pays to be prepared and know what the hell you are doing! Respect the mountain, the mountain will respect you.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| luigi wrote: |
Good point, but the Val Lasties incident was two guys from the lowland city of Udine snowshoeing into a wilderness area when the avalanche warning was 4/5, the snowpack being unstable due to a weak, unconsolidated layer. If you're going to do something like that, you need to heed warnings/take local advice/understand the risks for yourself. Unfortunately, you can't protect people from their own stupidity. Respect the mountains. |
Yep, make the snowshoe guys candidates for the Darwin awards in my book!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| luigi wrote: |
| Steilhang wrote: |
Samerberg Sue, while I do generally agree with you, it seems that at least one of these accidents happened in an area that was basically a connecting run between two pistes
| Quote: |
| In the mountains west of Bolzano, meanwhile, a third avalanche struck three young Germans. after they left the ski runs near Malga Madriccio to take a well-trodden short-cut across the slopes |
It seems to me that European resorts make life a bit too easy for themselves by declaring areas that are not directly on the the piste as being 'your own problem'. I imagine that this is largely a matter of the cost of performing avalanche control on the whole of the resort rather than simply in those areas that directly threaten the pistes. I would prefer to see resorts take the American approach of having an 'in-bounds' area that is fully avalanche controlled. That way these kinds of between the piste accidents would be far less frequent, not that they don't still happen in America as well.
Just a thought! |
Good point, but the Val Lasties incident was two guys from the lowland city of Udine snowshoeing into a wilderness area when the avalanche warning was 4/5, the snowpack being unstable due to a weak, unconsolidated layer. If you're going to do something like that, you need to heed warnings/take local advice/understand the risks for yourself. Unfortunately, you can't protect people from their own stupidity. Respect the mountains. |
4/5! They do seem to have been ill advised!
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Samerberg Sue,
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| Steilhang, the so-called "well trodden path" was probably made by other idiots who got away with it! |
Often enough I have been one of those idiots! As you correctly say, in America it's the fear of litigation that makes the resorts create the in-bounds/out-bounds areas. Other than the financial impact I don't see any major problem with facing facts and doing something similar here. Fact is that many skiers are not aware of the dangers of 'just popping off piste a bit' and fact is that the lift operators are providing the means by which all these 'idiots' are transported up to the places where they get themselves into trouble. They also make substantial amounts of money by doing so! A bit more responsibility placed on the shoulders of the operatos would not go amiss in my opinion!
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You know it makes sense.
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Sure but the responsibility in the end is surely with the individual not the lift company?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Liveezy,
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| Respect the mountain, the mountain will respect you. |
The relationship is not reciprocal! I'd find it surprising if it was!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| nozawaonsen wrote: |
| Sure but the responsibility in the end is surely with the individual not the lift company? |
Well if the lift companies were to invest in training each and every one of their customers in avalanche awareness to a level where they are fully aware of the dangers and can assess the situation themselves then I would agree. Since that's hardly realistic I think a significant part of the responsibility rests on the lift operator for putting people into that environment in the first place.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmm, well people choose to go into the mountains. Then in some cases they choose to leave the pistes. I'm not quite sure that is the same as being put there, which rather implies you did not have a choice. I don't disagree that it might be more fun, or at least safe, if the in bounds was all controlled. But I am not sure the lift company has a responsibility to do this.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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We arrived back from Selva yesterday eve. We heard of a death in Arabba whilst we we there. We witnessed a largish fall in the Eidelweiss valley above Colfosco. Fortunately, this was not above a piste, but only just. The areas surrounding Selva are not known to be of high avalanche risk however, the weather conditions were unheard of. Within 3 days, temps swung from -23 on the mountain to +3 and rain. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
DallyPaul, too damned often unfortunately! This is the 4th or 5th such report of avalanche deaths I've read so far this season already. But much sadder because of the deaths of the rescuers.
I heard this report yesterday on the radio and was looking for a link to post here. Sometimes when I read on boards like this about people who "never ski on piste" or similar statements, my blood starts to boil at the arrogant stupidity of some of the tourists. Absolutely no idea of the dangers, just ignorant thrill seekers who feel that because it is their holiday they have the right to ski off-piste or closed slopes, anywhere in fact that they want to! They've paid their money and they are, in their estimation, master skiers! This is the price that the rescue services sometimes have to pay
I used to be a member of a Mountain and Cave Rescue Team in the UK and we had to deal with the same kind of ignorance as well. It does not matter that they got themselves into trouble, they call the rescue services to get them out of it and, more often than not, never gave more than the most perfunctory "thanks" for all our trouble. A lot of them had no idea that it cost us money as well as our employers, to pull them out of the hole they had got themselves into. |
Mmm
My understanding is that a high proportion of people caught in avalanches are people with knowledge. Yes skiing off piste is potentially dangerous but so are a lot of other things in this life.
Most of the mounatin escue people that I have met accept that sometimes they are called out to idiots they are also called out to a lot of knowledgeable well equipped people who mad an error of judgement something anyone can do.
Are we meant to ban people from the mountains or only allow them on specially prepared paths?
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T Bar, see my link.... sobering video if you have not seen it... one of the party had a PhD in snow science and strong avy quals IIRC... I do not think any would have been considered lacking in knowledge... strong group well prepared - made some booboos... (reminiscent of a bunch of aussies that got stuck in a blizzard in Oz and nearly died of hypothermia a few years back)
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I'm getting an error from that link. Can u check it. Ta.
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nope it works very slow to load though
but I'll try this
that should be a link I hope...
Sorry AFAIK you cannot embed video here... like many other normal features at forums it is disabled here(like PM by click on name etc) I'd do that if I could
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Are we meant to ban people from the mountains or only allow them on specially prepared paths?
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No, I don't think anyone is suggesting that. But I do think when people make their risk assessment (assuming they are doing so) they need to factor in the broader consequences ie that a rescue may be subsequently attempted which will put the rescuers at risk too. So if you go off piste when the conditions are bad and there are warnings saying don't go out, it may not just be you who you are putting at risk and that is something you should factor in. Should add that this is not a comment on the events in Italy, I don't know enough about the circumstances. And yes a lot of accidents do clearly happen to people with experience, presumably sometimes bad luck, sometimes bad judgement. The rescue team obviously had experience in Italy, but I guess the point is that they did not choose to go out in the conditions for fun, they volunteered to go to try and save other people, despite probably being aware of the increased risks.
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That link works. Ta.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| nozawaonsen wrote: |
| ... when people make their risk assessment (assuming they are doing so) they need to factor in the broader consequences ie that a rescue may be subsequently attempted which will put the rescuers at risk too. |
If people are making some form of risk assessment how many will put the threat to S&R teams ahead of their own survival? Seems an odd thing to expect: "I'm happy to risk my own life, but I won't ski this particular pitch because some kind-hearted pisteur might get avalanched when looking for my stupid ass buried two metres under the snow". Can't see that particular thought process happening...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Resorts in the USA are much smaller and more compact - I'm all for some sections of the mountain in Europe being US style "in bounds" avalanche and controlled but I'm not sure how people could be clear where off piste was in bounds and where it was not. However it would just not be practical to make the whole area accessible from the resort lifts avalanche patrolled.
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snowball, quite right. I was trying to imagine how Les Arcs could all be made "in-bounds" and made safe (as much as is practical; in-bounds avalanches do occur in N. America, so it's not 100% guaranteed) and I don't think it would be possible.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Seems an odd thing to expect: "I'm happy to risk my own life, but I won't ski this particular pitch because some kind-hearted pisteur might get avalanched when looking for my stupid ass buried two metres under the snow". |
I agree. It's madness to ski with an ass - these stupid animals just get in the way and have no concept of avalanche risk.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I wasn't suggesting people should
| Quote: |
put the threat to S&R teams ahead of their own survival
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that would be peculiar.
But if the weather is closing in, the avalanche risk warning at 4 or 5 and there are clear suggestions that you should not go off piste, but you just decide you want to (because the powder looks great, untracked, whatever) then you are not just putting yourself at risk, but the people who may have to come to rescue you. Whether the person foolish enough to take that risk for themselves would be wise enough to consider the risk to others is I agree a moot point.
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Poster: A snowHead
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David Sockpuppet, Yes but they can don key avalanche equipment. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Steilhang wrote: |
| nozawaonsen wrote: |
| Sure but the responsibility in the end is surely with the individual not the lift company? |
Well if the lift companies were to invest in training each and every one of their customers in avalanche awareness to a level where they are fully aware of the dangers and can assess the situation themselves then I would agree. Since that's hardly realistic I think a significant part of the responsibility rests on the lift operator for putting people into that environment in the first place. |
Or how about the resposibility rests with the individual to understand the environment they are in well enough to be safe and more importantly not to endanger anyone else while they are there?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| little tiger wrote: |
| T Bar, see my link.... sobering video if you have not seen it... one of the party had a PhD in snow science and strong avy quals IIRC... I do not think any would have been considered lacking in knowledge... strong group well prepared - made some booboos... (reminiscent of a bunch of aussies that got stuck in a blizzard in Oz and nearly died of hypothermia a few years back) |
Yep mistake happen and even the best prepared, most experienced and best equipped can end up in trouble, but being prepared and understanding what you are getting into helps minimise the chance of things going horribly wrong!
Deep Survival: Who Lives, Who Dies and Why by Laurence Gonzales makes interesting reading on why the experienced ones also make some of the big (and often fatal) mistakes!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Steilhang, no poo-poo smart back bottom.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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This is a quote from the report in the Guardian ''The rescue team, made up of Alpine guides and instructors, reached a mountain refuge on Saturday night. From there, the seven men set off in the dark, lighting their path with lamps fixed to their helmets. As they were descending the snow above them broke loose and roared down the mountain, burying all but one. The man who was not hit raised the alarm.''
i have the greatest of respect for the rescue team, but quite often I hear of reports of searches being called off because of bad weather or conditions etc. yet in this case the guys risked their lives at night in an avalance area with only lamps fixed to their helmets as a means to see where they were going and what the prevailing/surrounding conditions were like  is this normal in such cirmumstances ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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little tiger, if you subscribe to snowheads you will get a click-name-to-open-pm facility.
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stoatsbrother, How do you do that as the click name to PM is one thing on here I miss. At the moment if I click on a name (like I just did on yours) it starts a quick reply with the clicked name in bold at the start
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davkt, you pay money 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks Geepee, got it now didn't think of that as on the other forums I use its the user name you click and the poster tag just takes you to a list of what the tags mean.
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FAQ
status under their name on the left. 