 Poster: A snowHead
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last year we had an aborted landing at Chambery. Pilot said he needed visual of runway at a critical height. we flew round a few times lost some weight (sweating passengers!) and that critical height was a bit lower - so we got in second time round. of course by that time our private transfer had fecked off!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yeah, Chambery is a pain to fly to and one of the reasons I've switched to Munich and driving down to Austria for my skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| redski wrote: |
Not sure I'm in the right section, but I am curious to hear from any pilots on this one...
Due to fly out to Chambery with a well known ski holiday company on Saturday, to spend Christmas week in Tignes. They rang today to say, unfortunately, we now had to fly in to Grenoble instead (another hour or so on a coach then!). Same flight, same times, just to/from a different airport...
They said it was because they have no pilots with the appropriate qualifications, that can fly into Chambery that day. Does anybody know what the extra qualifications are? (I assumed all pilots could fly to all airports!?!) Or have they just messed up the schedules and are trying to flannel me with technical stuff?
Cheers in advance... |
Hi redski,
I read the last Chambery post with interest (which had a fair few inaccuracies in it!!), and now this one - I thought I'd post a reply for you and try to answer a few questions. I am a pilot (I may or may not work for the airline I assume you have gone on holiday with!!) and am qualified to fly into Chambery. I'm sure I flew a few of you there last year, but wont be this year as I've taken the winter off to go skiing myself, rather than taking other people there!!
Many posts on here are relatively accurate, some are a little off the mark. Apologies in advance if any of the lingo in this is a bit foreign to anyone, but aviation is full of terminology seemingly designed to confuse!!! Any questions, feel free to ask...
Firstly, yes CMF is a little worse than some in terms of likelihood of diversion, as like Innsbruck being actually in the mountains rather than surrounding areas brings it's own issues.
You mentioned that you were told that they didn't have enough pilots with qualifications - it is true that you do have to be qualified for that particular airport (the same for a fair few others like Innsbruck, Funchal etc.). What is required? Well for First Officers (which is what I am) it's relatively straight forward - you are sent a big briefing and have to read it and be aware of the many issues before you go. It takes a bit of planning and then doing to get into Chambery, it is a little complicated. As for the Captain, it is more in depth - he (or she) will get the same briefing pack but then go for a day of training in the simulator, practising all the various scenarios that could happen in the course of landing, going around, and taking off. There is a (relatively) straight forward runway (the southerly) and a more "interesting" runway (the northerly), so there is plenty to look at in the sim and be fully prepared for before actually going there. Once that is done, the first time a Captain flies there he goes with a training captain. In our company, if you are qualified to go there then you can expect to do it most weekends and if not you will be on standby for it, just in case whoever is rostered to do it goes sick/out of hours or if there is bad weather and thus diversions and the programme needs "rescuing". So, the scenario you have had shouldn't happen, but anything can happen.
As I said, it is a little complicated - but don't let it put you off going, it's 100% safe, we wouldn't go otherwise! And remember, if you go on a flight there and end up diverting, I know that is annoying for you at the start of a holiday, but there will have been a good reason for it. We don't just divert for no good reason - it becomes a nightmare of delays/bussing people around etc. and quite an operation to get the programme back on track.
So, what is it actually like to fly there? Well, on a good day it is brilliant fun and about as beautiful an approach as anywhere we go - believe it or not I'd rather go there than somewhere "simple". On a bad weather day it is challenging and a very busy flight deck (it is a short flight, so good planning before we depart the UK is handy!), but equally as satisfying. The only reason I personally wouldn't want to do it every week is it means I will always work weekends and thus lose my social life!!!
As for the actual approach... You can almost always expect to hold to the north of the field before starting the approach (unless you are the first aircraft of the day to arrive) - more delays to upset the passengers! When you go to Gatwick or Heathrow, you can look along the approach path and see several aircraft behind one another on the approach. This isn't really possible at Chambery to the same extent - it is in a dead end valley, so if an aircraft goes around from it's approach it has to go back out the way it came in, thus conflicting with anyone who might be on the approach behind it. So you have to wait a longer time than normal behind the aircraft ahead until you can start your approach.
So, given it is in a dead end valley, there is only one way in regardless of which runway you are going to land on. It is an ILS (instrument landing system) to the southerly runway. Yes, you can land on either runway, if you are landing on the other (northerly) runway, you still go down the same approach but at a certain point you break off the ILS and do a visual circuit round to land - just like in that videoButterfly linked to, turn left, cross motorway, turn right downwind aiming at the hospital (the 2 big tower block type things in the video), turn right towards the runway - if I remember correctly, not been since last winter! Normally an ILS has a glidepath (the vertical profile we descend on) of 3 degrees, here it is steeper than that because at the start of the approach there is a hill that you have to clear before you descend over the lake. As you can imagine, given the proximity and dirty great big mountains on 3 sides, whichever runway you are landing on you need significantly more horizontal visibility/higher cloud base than you would at a "normal" airport, to land. And this at a place that is at the end of a lake and so frequently gets morning fog over said lake, which is exactly the place you need to become "visual"!!!
It is difficult to explain without drawing it, but if you can imagine that we need X metres visibility and Y feet cloud base, and we are descending towards that "minimum" cloud base, the higher limits here mean we would reach that limit a greater number of miles away from the airport on the approach. Also, unlike most airports, at Chambery these limits vary depending on extra factors like the weight of the aircraft - it is partly related to the performance of the aircraft in the go-around, a heavier aircraft will not climb as quickly as a lighter one and therefore must have a higher point at which it must go-around if visual reference is not achieved!!! If you see what I mean?!?!? Eithnem touched on this, lower weight = lower decision height. If the actual weather is close to your minimums, a lower weight may just get you in.
Then once you're past all that, it's a short runway - must land at the right point or go-around!
Then of course there is the issue of if you don't get in, the diversion - I won't go into that just now, my head hurts too much!
Anyway, I have bored myself a bit too much here, so I'm sure I have bored you even more!!! Sorry about that, but I hope you have a better appreciation now of some of (but certainly not all - it would take all day to do that!!) the issues with getting into places like this. And please, it's not the pilots' or ailine's fault if you divert!!!
I hope none of this has put anyone off, I was aiming for quite the opposite! It is perfectly safe.
Have fun.
Cheers
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Billy M, what a great answer - thanks for taking the time to post that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Billy M, agreed - thanks
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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paulio,
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I'm a pretty nervous flyer, and landing at Innsbruck nearly gave me the trots.
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Ditto. 
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Billy M, Great Post and thanks for the headsup...
| budfox wrote: |
| Yeah, Chambery is a pain to fly to and one of the reasons I've switched to Munich and driving down to Austria for my skiing. |
Lyon or Geneva is really not much further in the scale of things (2 hours to BSM / Paradiski, 1hr 40 to 3v, 2hr 40 to EK) - as a proportion of the total time between leaving home and being in a bar on the mountain it's not really much extra compared to Chambery
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Even if the landing works fine, the ground logistics seem to have issues - they need more aeroplane parking bays, stairs and luggage carousels. The landing was fine, but the two hours from wheels touching the ground to my feet touching the ground were more than a little tedious!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm trying to post a movie file of the best landing ever, any idea how?
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Rocksteadee, what sort of file and what size is it?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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2.56 Meg .WMV
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Rocksteadee, You should be able to upload that to the snowMedia zone, and then post a link to it here.
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I've just survived the Chamberry landing. I didn't think the plane was going to land as the plane was high and the runway below but he slammed it down. Similar story from the people who had come from Gatwick. The runnway was closed for our returen as it was frozen. The re-opened it an hour later despite poor visibility. Due to use it again in New Year, could be a mistake as I could have opted for Geneva but went for shorter transfer which never seems to happen in practice as one of the planes or passengers are always late.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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alex_heney, No - that is the definition of an Good pilot...
If the Plane can be used again - they are excellent!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Billy M gives a very good description of the place. I am also a pilot, but fly an aircraft too big to fit into Chambery. I did used to fly 737s though, and had the 'pleasure' of my annual exam (simulator check) once with the sim programmed to replicate Chambery. The company had thought it would be a good way of getting all of the pilots familiar with the airport. All I can say about it is that I never wish to experience a sim session like that one again! But I think that was more down to the way that the company constructed the exam rather than the airport itself.
In good weather the airport looks fun and challenging (in a good way!) to get into. In bad weather it is difficult or impossible, depending on the weather conditions at the time. This is because of the high mountains and the fact that the airport is in a dead end valley. When the wind is in a certain direction you have to do what is called a 'circling approach' which involved commencing an instrument approach, breaking off that and finishing off the approach with visual references from the ground. If the weather is bad ie low cloud or reduced visibility due to snow, rain or fog, it is not possible to carry out this approach.
Captains have to have been given specific training in flying to Chambery mainly due to the emergency procedures. If one engine stops working on departure in certain conditions it becomes unlikely that you will clear the mountains if you continue to fly the standard departure. So there is an 'emergency turn procedure.' Normally if an engine fails after take off (EFATO) we have a very clear set of standard operating procedures which require you to do things in a set order. Due to the high terrain at Chambery you do things in a slightly different order. It is extremely important that you get it right here, as the mountains stop you having a second chance. (The same is true for Salzburg, Geneva and various other airports around the world, not just snowy ones - Athens, for example, also has mountains. My own personal 'holy cack!' place is Entebbe  ) So before we go to these places extra training is necessary.
One thing to remember about pilots before anyone gets paranoid though, is this; we're paid for what we can do, not what we do do  for the most part we hope never to have to put our training into practice. In 12 years of flying I have not had to carry out an emergency turn, but we practice them regularly nonetheless.
FWIW I'm going on my hols next week and flying into Chambery. Going with Astraeus - I'm hoping their international rock megastar is flying me out there 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Not an airline pilot but my experiences of doing my PPL out of one of the shortest grass strips in the UK leads me to think its very sensible for the extra training Pandora describes, we fairly regularly have pilots getting in a bit of a mess and heading out on an unplanned go around and at least they don't have any mountains in the way! The really entertaining ones are the occasion muppets who do the calcs and find they can land OK but foget to check the takeoff calcs. Suffice to say it takes more room to take off than to land so if your landing uses all the runway you might have a problem!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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From memory the approach is steep, at about 5.0degrees, it's almost surrounded by mountains (obviously) and if the wind is in the wrong direction (north), a circling approach from 2nm south of the LOC is required to land on RWY 36. I should imagine a missed approach is more complicated than normal too.
I'm not a pilot, but I like to hang around airports with binoculars and a flask of weak lemon drink.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PJSki, and some semtex...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| beanie1 wrote: |
| I think pilots needed extra training for the old HK airport. |
that landing was the most amazing thing ever
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