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Any airline pilot snow heads out there?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Not sure I'm in the right section, but I am curious to hear from any pilots on this one...

Due to fly out to Chambery with a well known ski holiday company on Saturday, to spend Christmas week in Tignes. They rang today to say, unfortunately, we now had to fly in to Grenoble instead (another hour or so on a coach then!). Same flight, same times, just to/from a different airport...

They said it was because they have no pilots with the appropriate qualifications, that can fly into Chambery that day. Does anybody know what the extra qualifications are? (I assumed all pilots could fly to all airports!?!) Or have they just messed up the schedules and are trying to flannel me with technical stuff?

Cheers in advance...
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Don't know anything about flying a plane but I do know Innsbruck has to have a properly experienced pilot to land at, due to the steep descent and valley sides. I got the impression it was done on experience rather than qualification though.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
not a pilot but chambery is hit or miss..... have had a few diversions to other airports to land.
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Might have found an answer to my own question.

Found a blog that mentions airport grading (A,B and C). It uses Madeira and Innsbruck as examples of the more difficult ones. Apparently, you need extra training for each. From memory, Chambery can be a bit hairy... short runway, steep sided valley, at the end of a lake, and I think you can only land in one direction...

Well, you live and learn!

I wonder what grade Courcheval Altiport is?
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I think pilots needed extra training for the old HK airport.
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redski wrote:
I wonder what grade Courcheval Altiport is?
You could ask our very own johnboy. He flew in and out of the altiport during the EoSB this year.
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Our resident cabin crew might know a bit about this. I remember my cabin crew ski buddy telling me that different airports carry different grades and pilots have to have the appropriate grades. Never been to Chambéry, but Innsbruck is a spectacular airport to land at. I remember the old HK airport too.
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Don't know about the grading, but here's a
Boeing 737 Circuit and Landing at Chambery, French Alps from Jonathan Grose
pilot's eye view of landing at Chambery. The runway's visible across the lake in the first 30s or so - it's at the top to the right of centre. The plane joins the circuit and lands back towards the lake.
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I think all Pilots have to have extra training for landing in the Mountains - due to the thermals etc. That's why alpe d'hez alti port is so busy - its pilots doing the extra training/licence. To land at Alpe d' Huez you dont use breaks, you use the gradient (going up) of the runway to stop you. Hope this is right and I have redeemed myself of my dumb blond labelling. snowHead Embarassed

ps I hate flying yet book Chambery due to short transfer time - it can be quite hairy sometimes but luckily we've not been diverted yet (have had delays though)
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beanie1 wrote:
I think pilots needed extra training for the old HK airport.


Yes proably nautical training. Kai Tak was interesting Shocked
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Quote:

due to the thermals

Is it harder to move the controls with the extra layers of clothing then? Toofy Grin
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:

dont use breaks, you use the gradient


how does snacking on a Kit Kat help stopping on flat runways then Puzzled
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redski, I am not an air pilot - but have flown there many times - including when it used to be 8 portacabins and the "aeroclub de Chamberry"

If you search the site on Chamberry you will probably find the answer as it has been discussed before. I believe it is a Captains' only approach where people have to be checked-out specifically for it before they are allowed to fly it - perhaps a bit similar to the old chequerboard approach into Kai Tak. There are also stringent minima for using the strip, and quite often bigger jets have to divert to Grenoble or other airports. RJ 100s are usually the best bet because of their STOL capability.


Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much on Fri 18-12-09 9:44; edited 2 times in total
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
queen bodecia wrote:
Innsbruck is a spectacular airport to land at.


I'm a pretty nervous flyer, and landing at Innsbruck nearly gave me the trots.

There's a moment where the pilot says "Cabin crew, 5 minutes to landing". You look out of the window and see absolutely no evidence of civilization, and what looks like zero possibility of there being an airport within about 100 miles. Incredible.
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paulio, yeah, I remember thinking "hang on, it's just mountains everywhere!" on the approach into Innsbruck. Nice short transfer time, mind Wink
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Flew into Innsbruck once with a friend who is a pilot for Monarch, I remember once we were down he commented that he "would have to look up that approach in his manuals when we got back". Shocked
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Courtesy of Gray Toofy Grin

Quote:
2 - Commander training and proficiency
Before using CHAMBERY airport, every flight commander
shall receive specific training set by the
operator.
This training will include :
- operator instruction theoretical training ;
- practical training with relevant aircraft or simulator
device, including flight procedure intended to
be used by the operator.
Case 1: training with a simulator device having
CHAMBERY additional capabilities, or inflight
training at CHAMBERY : all procedure
intended to be used by the operator and
done in this training are allowed.
In flight training at CHAMBERY must be
completed with visibility 5000 m and ceiling
3500 ft minimum.
Case 2 : training with another simulator device :
published minima for runway 18 approach
and runway 36 departure may be applied.
Circle to land with prescribed flight tracks
for runway 36 is allowed by day only with
visibility 5000 m and ceiling 3500 ft minimum.
Take-off from runway 18 is forbidden.
Case 3 : failure to comply with practical training :
day-only operation with visibility 5000 m
and ceiling 3500 ft minimum are allowed.
Take-off from runway 18 is forbidden.
Proficiency of theoretical and practical training is
valid as long as commander flew at CHAMBERY as
commander of an equivalent characteristics aircraft
in the past 12 months.


Innsbruck is the same, and only certain flight deck have the knowledge/ability to be able to fly there.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 18-12-09 10:39; edited 1 time in total
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
The last time I flew into Innsbruck was the only time I have been in an aeroplane where the whole cabin burst into spontaneous applause once it was down!
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My mate (an EJ captain) tells me "it's a 'Cat C' airfield" which usually means "you have to fly in there accompanied by a training Captain on your first visit and sometimes you have to do a session in the Simulator before going there practicing the special emergency procedures you have to use if something goes wrong on the way in or out of the place."
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I had an 'applause' landing at Salzburg after the pilot aborted when literally a few metres off the tarmac (really slow airspeed, flaps up, moments away from touchdown) because the unbelievably severe crosswinds were rolling the aircraft quite noticeably and threatening to smash the wing tips into the ground. He really put his foot down, whooooosh, very steep banked turn, came around and had another go.
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alex_heney, ah - you get used to that when you have Italian pax - that's the first thing they do when you land anywhere Laughing
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I nearly shat myself on that occasion as well, now I think about it.

Also, flying back from Munich into a ridiculous headwind over the north sea and watching the telemetry on the little screen counting down from about a 500mph ground speed to about 120mph. The old tortoise got a bit curious then too.
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Quote:

The old tortoise got a bit curious then too


Laughing Laughing Laughing
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paulio wrote:
I had an 'applause' landing at Salzburg after the pilot aborted when literally a few metres off the tarmac (really slow airspeed, flaps up, moments away from touchdown) because the unbelievably severe crosswinds were rolling the aircraft quite noticeably and threatening to smash the wing tips into the ground. He really put his foot down, whooooosh, very steep banked turn, came around and had another go.


Yep, had the same at Manchester once, you should have seen the faces on the people in that Pub near the runway Shocked
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Didn't someone say in a previous entry that once a pilot made a successful landing at Chambery he didn't have to go back!! Laughing
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paulio, we had an aborted landing at Heathrow once, not that far off the runway. Scary stuff! Particularly when the captain didn't tell us what had happened for a good few minutes...I thought we'd been hijacked, or had a near miss!! But apparently it was just some ejit in the loo - not allowed to land with someone in the loo!!
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Last year at Gatwick (I think it might have been the flight back from Munich mentioned above actually) we had a sort-of aborted landing. Not a last-minute peelaway, more a change of heart during the approach. The pilot came on the intercom and his explanation was 'there was a plane on our runway that was taking its time becoming airborne'.

What kind of plane 'takes its time' to get airborne? What does that even mean?

I'm touching cloth just thinking about it.
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Every approach should be viewed as an approach to go around. If you can land from it, it's a bonus.

Not at Chambery (actually Leeds), but
this is my favourite crosswind landing.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Some other professional viewpoints

Quote:
There is only one way in, and it is the same way out. Expect holding before approach. Carefully look at where to hold.

Chambery needs a lot of preparation


Quote:
You can also expect shitty surface conditions this time of year.

Just land at Lyon and bus them to Chambery!
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Worst landing I've ever had was at Siem Reap (Cambodia) in the middle of a typhoon, in a tiny plane. We bounced bounced bounced down the runway... Even my OH was a bit worried, and he doesn't get worried! Surprised we were even flying, it wa sa tiny little plane - but the weather was sunny in Phnom Penh, maybe all the pilot did was look out the window before take off?!
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paulio wrote:
Last year at Gatwick (I think it might have been the flight back from Munich mentioned above actually) we had a sort-of aborted landing. Not a last-minute peelaway, more a change of heart during the approach. The pilot came on the intercom and his explanation was 'there was a plane on our runway that was taking its time becoming airborne'.

What kind of plane 'takes its time' to get airborne? What does that even mean?

I'm touching cloth just thinking about it.


At airports that use a single runway it's up to the tower controller and approach controller to coordinate take offs and landings. You can't be cleared to land on a runway if there is another aircraft still on it, even if it's on the take off run as it may have to stop/abandon the take off. At busy airports, e.g. Gatwick, it relies on the controllers getting the spacing correct and the pilots flying the correct speeds on approach and being prompt in lining up/taking off when told to do so. In your case either the controllers didn't allow enough spacing or the pilot flying the approach flew too fast and got to the runway too quickly or the pilot taking off didn't do so promptly.

Cheers

BB
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beanie1 wrote:
paulio, we had an aborted landing at Heathrow once, not that far off the runway. Scary stuff! Particularly when the captain didn't tell us what had happened for a good few minutes...I thought we'd been hijacked, or had a near miss!! But apparently it was just some ejit in the loo - not allowed to land with someone in the loo!!


Although passengers may want to hear an explanation straight away for a go around, it's actually fairly low down on the pilots' list of priorities. In the event of a go around, the pilots should be looking after the aircraft first, navigating a safe path away from any lumpy bits/other aircraft, talking to air traffic control, carrying out checks - it's a busy time. Only once they have it all sorted out and they're both happy should a PA to the passengers be given, otherwise it will be a distraction which could lead to a mistake.

Cheers

BB
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Yes- have heard somewhere [probably here!] that Chambery is a 'Captain's airport' - and from the few times we've flown in it is a mix of utterly beautiful and utterly scary as you squeeze in between the peaks. Always pleased/relieved when you step onto the tarmac there.
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Some altiports require a rating (you have to go there and do a course with a resident instructor - rating lasts a year - quite expensive) some don't. Courcheval does, Megeve doesn't.

The rating for places like Chambrey is stipulated by the airport themselves.

I prefer not to book flights to airports with low grade ILS systems or which require additional pilot ratings. Its just more things that are likely to stop/delay you from landing at the expected destination.
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You are better off going to Grenoble anyway. Chambery can be a pain in the back bottom airport as you only need a bit of poor visibility and the plane cannot land.

On our last trip, we circled above for over half an hour before diverting to Lyon. We then sat in the plane waiting for nigh on two hours while the operations back in the UK decided
what to do. I think they wanted to keep us on board so as not to pay any handling fees and they were hoping to take off and fly back to Chambery. In the end, we disembarked and were taken on the bus to ADH so that meant we had lost quite a few hours.

Take off from Chambery can also be delayed due to the Viz.
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HaHa, I didn't write "back bottom" I wrote ar$e !
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Quote:

not a pilot but chambery is hit or miss.....

not sure whether to be reasssured by that Confused
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Kefalonia airport is a bit hairy too. Very short runway on top of cliffs with sea all around. The pilot is applying the brakes the minute it hits the runway. Makes a hideous noise. Now I know why you put everything away on landing, hubby left his ipod on his lap and it shot six seats up the plane.
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paulio wrote:

I'm a pretty nervous flyer, and landing at Innsbruck nearly gave me the trots.


paulio wrote:

I nearly shat myself on that occasion as well, now I think about it.



paulio, I hope you always remember to pack clean underwear and a spare pair of trousers in your handluggage when you fly wink
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bernie, Were we on the same flight!? Feb half term 09!?
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