 Poster: A snowHead
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With BA on it's financial knees cabin crew set about hastening the company's demise with wide spread industrial action planned for between 22 Dec and 2 Jan.
This will affect the travel plans of many skiers and boarders over Christmas and New Year.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Think the unions are determined to bankrupt BA if they can. Not sure why. Seems slightly odd way of going about things.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Being a Postal worker I can hardly criticise them, this is about agreed working conditions and practices not pay and it does seem to me that some big companies are using this recession as an excuse to make it more flexible for solely their own benefit, sorry if no one agrees with me but thats like turkeys voting for Christmas!
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Sounds to me like they just want some time off over the festive period. As much as I enjoy flying with BA (and have posted in the past to the effect that I wouldn't stop doing so through fear of bankruptcy etc) I think they might be pulling the final straw.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I saw a valuation of BA the other week which taking everything into account came out at quite a large negative number. This is hardly going to help.
Companies need to keep changing to stay viable, and unfortunately that means working practices need to change too.
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| Quote: |
excuse to make it more flexible for solely their own benefit
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But 'the company' is the people. That's what they don't realise......
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| martinm wrote: |
| Quote: |
excuse to make it more flexible for solely their own benefit
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But 'the company' is the people. That's what they don't realise...... |
So, do companies exist for the ultimate benefit of the:
A. Employees
B. Customers
C. Shareholders (i.e. the people putting up the money and taking the risk) ?
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RichardB, every worker in the private sector is being more flexible to ensure their company survives this.
I have friends who are posties and they have the same attitude as BA staff have. It is: why should they do more to help the company unless there is something in it for them. That their employers are losing millions seems completely irrelevant to these people. The posties had the good sense to take the over time and delay their action until after Christmas, avoiding alienating the public at the same time.
BA staff seem to be taking a leaf out of Alitalia's book.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| david@mediacopy wrote: |
| martinm wrote: |
| Quote: |
excuse to make it more flexible for solely their own benefit
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But 'the company' is the people. That's what they don't realise...... |
So, do companies exist for the ultimate benefit of the:
A. Employees
B. Customers
C. Shareholders (i.e. the people putting up the money and taking the risk) ? |
The obvious, cynical answer is C.
I understand that working practices need to change but the extent of change needs to be made clear and some mediation that it effects all workers within the company not just frontline. Thats what I think that has led to this strike.
I'm prepared to be flexible in my job, I have been this year trust me on that!
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Legacy Flag Carriers having to deal with the real world, with their unions being the last people to get the message.
BA
Alitalia
Aer Lingus
BA will not get goodwill back.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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RichardB, Out of interest, what makes 'C' cynical ?
Perhaps a solution would be for the respective employees to put their savings into a Co-Op in competition to their employers. That way the business would truly be ran for the benefit of the Employees. But I wonder what the take up would be.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| RichardB wrote: |
| david@mediacopy wrote: |
So, do companies exist for the ultimate benefit of the:
A. Employees
B. Customers
C. Shareholders (i.e. the people putting up the money and taking the risk) ? |
The obvious, cynical answer is C.
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I think you'll find that C is the factually correct answer - if you genuinely think companies exist for the benefit of their employees, no wonder why your organisation is up doo-dah street.
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i just hope for everyone they sort this out. I am due to fly BA in Feb, so who knows what is going to happen
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
I understand that working practices need to change but the extent of change needs to be made clear and some mediation that it effects all workers within the company not just frontline. Thats what I think that has led to this strike.
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Which is why the pilots and engineers have agreed to changes and to pay cuts. The only ones not willing to change seems to be cabin staff - and they are not being asked to take pay cuts, just fly with one less crew member long haul.
They'll no doubt be the ones crying for the government to save their jobs if the company goes bust.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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RichardB, I am with the others... Customers need to come first to deliver the ultimate benefit to the shareholders, and consideration of your workforce is part of getting the best out of them. But if the main item on the agenda is what the workforce want - you are a terminally ill organsation - because at heart - we would all like to do less work for more dosh.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm not saying companies should be run for solely the benefit of employees either, I think "cynical" was bad wording on my part, sorry about that.
But as a hard-working postman, its frustrating that I'm implied as ineffecient after nearly 11 years of doing the job!
I Don't want to turn this into an argument about my job, I'm leaving this topic alone I think I've inflamed too much already, I'm sorry.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| chrisb wrote: |
| i just hope for everyone they sort this out. I am due to fly BA in Feb, so who knows what is going to happen |
I'm due to fly out on the 24th December, so I'm hoping too!
Employees are also customers, and just as important, but the answer to the above question is indeed C. However the problem here is the flagrant disregard by those voting of the current economic climate, and of the situation that BA finds itself in. The pilots have taken a pay cut, the engineers have agreed efficiency savings, a third of BA managers have agreed voluntary redundancy. The cabin crew wouldn't intentionally be sounding the death knell of their employer so they must have some belief that BA can soldier on in spite of their actions.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The BA flight I was on yesterday was FULL. If BA can't make a profit on full planes, then either (a) their prices are too low, or (b) their costs are too high. Since I (or rather work) paid £400 (return) for the flight (~2hr). then it must be (b).
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 14-12-09 17:37; edited 1 time in total
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| RichardB wrote: |
I'm not saying companies should be run for solely the benefit of employees either, I think "cynical" was bad wording on my part, sorry about that.
But as a hard-working postman, its frustrating that I'm implied as ineffecient after nearly 11 years of doing the job! |
Fair Enough - and we're not here to criticise hard-working staff as I'm sure we've all done our turn as one of those - one of my first jobs was pushing trolleys round supermarket car-parks.
If you think about it from the outside what a customer gets for their 39p is absolutely incredible - you mean I drop my letter in a red box and miraculously it turns up the very next day at some location I've specified several hundred miles away from where it started and I only pay 39p for the privilege - amazing.
The problem for you guys has always been the pension deficit, which together with some unions that are still frankly stuck in the dark ages you're going to have issues. Mix in some utterly idiotic government decisions such as opening up the network for 'increasing competition' plus add in the decline of items being sent by post (I probably sent less than 10 letters this year - email/skype/sms/facebook takes precedence) and you've got a static cost base and declining revenues = eventually ending up in the doo-dah.
Good luck but I would expect to see bigger changes coming soon, more job cuts and eventually dare I say it the Royal Mail will probably become a division of DHL or similar...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| RichardB wrote: |
| But as a hard-working postman, its frustrating that I'm implied as ineffecient after nearly 11 years of doing the job! |
Sorry, not trying to give a downer on postal workers. I don't think individual post men are inefficient or less hard working in their jobs any more than anyone else.
I'm not 100% on the issues between the unions and the management but I'd guess that job's or tasks need to change and I'd imagine that there needs to be a lot more automation, with all the changes that brings.
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| RobW wrote: |
| The BA flight I was on yesterday was FULL. If BA can't make a profit on full planes, then either (a) their prices are too low, or (b) their costs are too high. Since I (or rather work) paid £400 (return) for the flight (~2hr). then it must be (b). |
RobW should be made FD of BA on the basis of this insight alone 
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BA are a pension fund with an airline attached and among the staff cabin crew seem to enjoy the most preferential T&C when compared to peers in other airlines. AIUI they earn more, get better perks and enjoy more mgt influence then Virgin & the low cos staff. Yet the public face seems to be grumpier. I'm sure Wee Willie would love to be able to take them down - at present however it just looks like mutually assured destruction & as a taxpayer I'm a little concerned about the bailout if one were required (strategically important national business et al).
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fatbob, yep, the pension black hole is bigger than the market capitalisation of the company. BA literaly cannot afford this strike. The staff must be suicidal to vote the way they have even if it's a bluff still at this stage. Turkeys voting for Christmas. If it does eventually collapse it will emerge under the same brand, running most of the same aircraft and routes but with a very different staff structure (like Swiss). Actually, I think this is the only way forward and, again, the staff must be bonkers.
I'm just glad I decided to drive when all this was mooted a few months ago.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| ... If it does eventually collapse it will emerge under the same brand, running most of the same aircraft and routes but with a very different staff structure (like Swiss).Actually, I think this is the only way forward... |
That's how I see it, too. Hmm. BA folding just before a general election? Wonder if the airline is planning on a government bail-out.
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Agree that striking is very short sighted. BA staff have amongst the best working conditions/pay of any airline in Europe, but the company is hemorrhaging money and is just not viable unless it changes. I think that Bode Swiller is correct, and if they do strike the airline doesn't have much longer in its present form. If it was me I think I would prefer to work for less money or longer hours if it made my job secure.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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These guys must be absolutely mental, I left a company for another jpb in April but still speak to the guys there. Things were a bit tight and I could see things were going down the swanny which is why I left, the staff were unwilling to take pay cuts and the boss didn't want to make redundancies, a month after I left they went bust. They have now reformed under a different name etc ( how what they have done is legal, I do not know) but the group of muppets previously unwilling to make a compromise to save the company, now have no holidays, a lot less money and not much hope of another job in the industry because everybody is struggling!
These staff need to realise that the company is not set up to help them out, it is there to make money.
If they do strike, and this does drive BA into collapse, I hope they feel happy with themselves knowing that they didn't have to fly with one less member of staff.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| bertie bassett wrote: |
| RichardB wrote: |
| david@mediacopy wrote: |
So, do companies exist for the ultimate benefit of the:
A. Employees
B. Customers
C. Shareholders (i.e. the people putting up the money and taking the risk) ? |
The obvious, cynical answer is C. |
I think you'll find that C is the factually correct answer - if you genuinely think companies exist for the benefit of their employees, no wonder why your organisation is up doo-dah street. |
The legally correct answer will be found in the Articles of Association and Memorandum of the company concerned and it will almost always be C. However, the interests of C. are heavily dependent on the company having a healthy concern for A. and B. As an outsider, it seems to me that BA has suffered from years of bad management that has failed to make its workforce feel valued, despite being unusually well remunerated by industry standards; and its workforce's depressingly inflexible attitude is probably a hard-to-exorcise relic of its nationalised past.
If (when?) BA failes, other more flexible competitors will take its place, so B. will be OK. A. and C. will be stuffed, and it serves them right.
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are all staff members of UNITE , or is it just staff members who happen to be members of unite that are voting for action at 92% of them rather then the work force as a whole?
I was amused that the head of the union kept mentioning that it was the service that set them apart and they wanted to up hold good BA service.. BA service has been terrible every time I've encountered it, and some pretty rude and pompus cabin crew.
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You know it makes sense.
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Listening to Walsh on the radio tonight he sounds like the management of British Coal in 1984. Maybe they will simply close the whole operation down for 12 days and sit this one out. The environment might get a boost I suppose with fewer aircraft?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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And if the unions do bring BA down, let's not forget that by far the majority of BA's shareholders will be the pension funds of other companies... Whose employees may be working with their bosses to make their company leaner and better placed to survive the downturn.
The people proposing this strike are selfish beyond belief.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Oh, and... BA cabin crew based at Gatwick and City are already working on the new contracts. Flights from those bases should be relatively unaffected.... should be!!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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On C4 news, apparantly the problem is that BA are imposing the changes and not negotiating them. It is already in place at Gatwick and they haven't kicked up a stink.
These people have just come across far worse than I thought them to be before!
edited to make sense
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Some people I have spoken to make it clear that some BA senior cabin crew have been indulging in Old Spanish Practices for years.
Bode Swiller, I suspect you are spot on in your analysis. We have to destroy this village to save it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ski Tyke,
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Am seriously considering taking out £131 insurance policy of Eurotunnel crossing for 3 Jan to get family to La Tania
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History suggests that the unions will inflict substantial damage by calling a strike (which means bookings plummet), then find some compromise at the 11th hour so that it's cost them nothing in lost pay, so there's a reasonable chance that you will be alright.
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Let's hope the BA management break the idiot unions before the unions breaks the company.
Who is going to book any kind of flight with BA for the foreseeable? I know I (and my company) are not!
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Willie Walsh posted the following on BA's website
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You may have heard that Unite, the union that represents our cabin crew, has threatened strike action between December 22, 2009 and January 2, 2010.
Let me say immediately we will do everything we can to assist you at what will clearly be a very difficult time if strikes go ahead. We are working hard on contingency plans, and will announce them as soon as they are finalised.
We are also urging Unite to return to the negotiating table. There are important issues on which we have asked them to put forward new ideas.
Strike action is completely unjustified.
It's no secret that British Airways is in financial difficulty. Like other global airlines, we have been hit extremely hard by the slump in business travel brought on by the world recession.
We lost £400m last year and will lose at least as much this year. These are the worst financial results in our history. Our revenue is down £1 billion, so reducing costs is absolutely essential even to begin heading back toward profitability and long-term survival.
Many of my colleagues understand this. Our pilots have agreed a pay cut. Our engineers have agreed more efficient ways of working. A third of our managers have accepted voluntary redundancy. And nearly 7,000 colleagues volunteered for salary reductions because they wanted to help this great British company in a time of need.
But our cabin crew union has refused to engage in this process seriously.
My admiration for the professionalism and skills of British Airways cabin crew is second to none. They are an absolutely vital part of our airline, and a great asset. But they have been disgracefully misled by Unite as to how our company-wide cost reduction programme would affect them.
Unite claims that we are trying to "intimidate workers into accepting poorer contracts", forcing crew to leave the company, and "attacking" their pay and allowances.
This is fiction. Our package involves no reduction in terms or conditions for existing crew. Our Heathrow crew will remain the best paid in the industry. Average earnings for cabin services directors are £56,000 on long-haul and £52,000 on short-haul. For junior crew, they are £35,000 and £26,000 respectively. According to the Civil Aviation Authority, average costs of BA crew are twice those of their Virgin Atlantic counterparts.
In fact, despite our financial backdrop, more than 10,000 of our cabin crew will receive pay rises of between two and seven per cent this year, and again next year. In the worst recession since the Second World War, these are increases many employees in other walks of life can only dream about.
We have created opportunities for voluntary redundancy, and more than 1,000 crew have taken that option. Similarly, more than 3,000 crew have volunteered to switch to part-time working.
To accommodate these requests, we have made a small change in our onboard crew numbers from Heathrow, without affecting service standards. Our Gatwick flights have been operating on equivalent crew numbers for years - with Unite's agreement.
Unite's chief complaint seems to be that we are "imposing" the changes at Heathrow. The truth is we had been discussing them with the union for nine months but, despite all the evidence of the company's (and the industry's) financial plight, Unite would not be realistic about the clear imperative to reduce costs.
We could not wait any longer. We moved ahead, making sure that our changes were squarely based on voluntary choices for individuals.
Unite claims the changes affect contractual terms and conditions. We believe they do not. The union failed to gain an injunction to prevent their introduction, but a full court hearing to settle the contractual question has been set for February 2010.
We do not understand why Unite is threatening you with disrupted travel plans now over an issue that the courts are preparing to resolve in a few weeks.
A strike can achieve nothing except huge upset and inconvenience for you. We will do our best to provide as much help and support as we can.
Willie Walsh |
Even a half of it is true it's very hard to have any sympathy for the cabin crew whatsoever.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Do the BA workers get paid if they go on strike? I suspect not. Do the cabin crew get paid triple time for working at Christmas and New Year I suspect yes.
It's a bluff.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
Do the BA workers get paid if they go on strike? I suspect not. Do the cabin crew get paid triple time for working at Christmas and New Year I suspect yes.
It's a bluff. |
I don't think any workers, in any industry, get paid if they go on strike.
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FAQ
. It's to Gatwick, but not prepared to risk not getting home for the sake of CHF185. And if the BA flights are still running I'll have the choice of two 
